Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Shark Knight » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:47 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:So you just want him to become the brat that Asuka thinks he is? Do you really want to think he's got no capacity to become better than that? I believe that Eva's vision is about overcoming problems in life, not giving in to them.

Same thinking over here, I think that Shinji saving and helping Asuka it's going to be one of the important things going on 3 + 1

Ray, I am afraid that you are projecting yourself on Shinji too much based on your past relationship.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:20 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote: So you just want him to become the brat that Asuka thinks he is?


Nothing he can do will make her or anyone else think he's anything other than a selfish brat. So why not? You can only be abused and bullied for so long before you start hitting back. But like I said, Anno won't even allow Shinji that, and instead will likely to continue to metaphorically castrate him.

Besides, him refusing to fight killing Asuka happened before.

SPOILER: Show
Image


It could very well happen again. Heck, if the next time preview at the end of 3.33 is in any way accurate it's probably more than likely.

Do you really want to think he's got no capacity to become better than that?

After what happened in 3.33? After all the misery he's responsible for causing, after being the biggest f*ckup in the history of the human race? I'm leaning more on the side of no. Though I'm still crossing my fingers I highly doubt there's any hope at redemption, especially considering 3.33 destroyed pretty much any possibility of undoing what he's done. If he can not undo what he did, then he can't be forgiven.

A big part of tragedy is refusal for a character to change, and more specifically a refusal of character to forgive. and it's hard to believe that anyone, much less the woman he's responsible for disfiguring, could forgive someone who literally ended the world. Arya Stark couldn't forgive the ones who killed her family. Hamlet couldn't forgive Claudius for killing his father. Asuka couldn't forgive Shinji in EOE, and we all know how that turned out!

It happened before, and if Final is going to be like EOE why shouldn't it happen again in Final?

I believe that Eva's vision is about overcoming problems in life, not giving in to them.


You call being partially to wholly responsible for the end of the world 'not giving in' to your problems?

Ray, I am afraid that you are projecting yourself on Shinji too much based on your past relationship.


I'm not projecting on Shinji. If anything I'm projecting on Asuka, she's the one who's missing an eye because of his cowardice. How would you treat someone who left you to die in an accident because he was too chicken to pull you out?
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:33 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'm not projecting on Shinji. If anything I'm projecting on Asuka, she's the one who's missing an eye because of his cowardice. How would you treat someone who left you to die in an accident because he was too chicken to pull you out?


That's not what happened, which is why she doesn't react the way you say she should.

And yeah, you definitely to appear to be projecting something fierce, because you keep reiterating the same old claims that are flat-out wrong. You keep saying everything is like so, or that such and such can't happen, or various other black and white statements that are by no means a given, and nobody -- hell, not even Stillborn! -- is so heavily invested in being right about Shinji having no hope for the future. You really, really, really want the show to be as bleak as it can possibly be, and you won't hear a word to the contrary no matter who says it or how sound the arguments they make. That is totally about you, not about the source material.
Last edited by Bagheera on Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:45 pm

It actually makes me curious as to what your reaction will be should Final have a happy (or more likely, potential to be happy) ending

And as we've said before, there's evidence to point that the 12th Angel was the cause of 3I, not Shinji
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:06 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Nothing he can do will make her or anyone else think he's anything other than a selfish brat.

You don't know that.

Besides, him refusing to fight killing Asuka happened before.

He had to persuade Yui to break out of the Bakelite; he could have got there sooner to persuade her, I suppose, but how far do you want to rewrite the story?

A big part of tragedy is refusal for a character to change, and more specifically a refusal of character to forgive.

But not all stories are tragedies.

Asuka couldn't forgive Shinji in EOE, and we all know how that turned out!

With an ending that is generally seen as hopeful.

It happened before, and if Final is going to be like EOE why shouldn't it happen again in Final?

We've been told it's different.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:35 pm

That's not what happened, which is why she doesn't react the way you say she should.


Nearly punching a hole through his head is about right, insulting him and trying to kill him instead of trying to talk him down? Also about right.

Speaking of which I found this great article talking about Asuka's character in 3.33 I highly recommend you all check out.

http://sir-argues-a-lot.tumblr.com/post ... most-about
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:08 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Nearly punching a hole through his head is about right, insulting him and trying to kill him instead of trying to talk him down? Also about right.


But she didn't do either of those things. Instead she punched a pane of bulletproof glass to express her displeasure, and then tried to stop him from ending the world. Talk him down? He was ignoring Kaworu at that point, who was his bestest of besties. Why would Asuka even dream he'd listen to a reasoned argument from her?

Oh yeah, and then she rescued him and resolved to guide him back to civilization. You know, instead of leaving him to die or just killing him herself. But that doesn't count, right?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Shark Knight » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:44 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'm not projecting on Shinji. If anything I'm projecting on Asuka, she's the one who's missing an eye because of his cowardice. How would you treat someone who left you to die in an accident because he was too chicken to pull you out?

Because of his cowardice? Ikari was willing to give his life in exchange of not hurting Asuka. Granted as a naive 14 year old the tought of "submit her eva and tear out it's plug container to save Asuka" didnt cross his mind.
If anyone is responsible for such thing it's Gendo which is why Ikari went on a rampage destroying geofront.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Lennik » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:33 pm

We also don't know that she's actually "missing" an eye. If anything it appears there's something angelic under her eyepatch.

She clearly does not hate him. She called for his help in the retrieval of Unit 01 when she had no logical reason to believe he could help. That says, to me at least, that she still has a great deal of faith in him for all her anger.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:58 am

I'll just post a link to this thread full of Kendrix posts. Maybe we can even get an Admin to unlock it.


thread/15423/Does-Asuka-hate-Shinji-in-Q-Split/
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:50 am

View Original PostRay wrote:I'll just post a link to this thread full of Kendrix posts.


And I'll point to ten pages of discussion in that very thread, most of it standing in stark disagreement with her assertions (and yours).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Shark Knight » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:22 pm

View Original PostLennik wrote:We also don't know that she's actually "missing" an eye. If anything it appears there's something angelic under her eyepatch.

She clearly does not hate him. She called for his help in the retrieval of Unit 01 when she had no logical reason to believe he could help. That says, to me at least, that she still has a great deal of faith in him for all her anger.

Are we sure she is missing an eye? do we really know that it didnt just got contaminated?
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:40 pm

The blue glow suggests the shape of an iris and pupil underneath the patch:
SPOILER: Show
Image


To me it looks like she picked up this thing from the face at the bottom of the entry plug:
SPOILER: Show
Image
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Lennik » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:10 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'll just post a link to this thread full of Kendrix posts. Maybe we can even get an Admin to unlock it.


thread/15423/Does-Asuka-hate-Shinji-in-Q-Split/


That's not gonna be reliable. I distinctly remember her emphatically talking about this "brutal kick" that Asuka apparently gave Shinji, when actually watching the film reveals only a slight shove with her foot. While he was already sitting down. She made it sound like Asuka gave him a flying roundhouse that dislocated his jaw. Hyperbole set in as soon as the film was released and this "Everybody hates Shinji" farce was allowed to propagate because people didn't even wait to digest the film before running to their computers to complain.

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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Shark Knight » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:15 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:The blue glow suggests the shape of an iris and pupil underneath the patch:
SPOILER: Show
Image


To me it looks like she picked up this thing from the face at the bottom of the entry plug:
SPOILER: Show
Image

Yeah, do you think there is a possibility of the angel still living within her Iris? Or do you think it is just contamination that has resided there and possibly even given her freaky powers?
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:45 pm

Wouldn't we just love to know! I read it that she carries a contamination (the fact that the patch has angel-sealing hexes on it is a pointer), but I'm not so sure that she has gained angelic powers (whatever they may be) as a result. OK, she morphs a bit (those canine teeth) when Unit-02 morphs into beast mode - but that could as easily, and more logically (since they match), be part of the curse of Eva.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:28 pm

I seriously doubt the Angel is alive, or that Asuka's eye is anything dangerous. The rainbow and spray of blood appear when Unit 01 crushes Asuka's entry plug and Ritsuko says she's clear of any cellular contamination.

I think that the encounter with the 9th Angel made some significant changes to Asuka's physiology. We've seen that it happens when a pilot goes too deep into a core. Mari and Asuka's eyes glow green, Asuka grows extra teeth, Shinji turns into a red-eyed blazing albino, Kaworu being changed into the 13th Angel, and so on. Asuka was pulled deep into Unit 03's core while already inside the 9th Angel's core and in physical contact with the Angel itself. Maybe the Angel's glowiness was integrated into her eye somehow.

If Wille's treatment of Shinji is anything to judge by, Asuka was probably put through some really rigorous examinations before she was allowed back in the cockpit.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:34 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Kaworu being changed into the 13th Angel

Wait, so going deeper down the plug makes you change Angel rank?
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:44 pm

Sort of. The pilot gets closer to the core as the plug depth increases, and the changes start happening when they get too close or actually go inside of it. Unit 13 was completely encased in that massive core and Kaworu with it. I think that probably had something to do with it.
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Re: Why did Asuka tell Shinji she didn't receive his help?

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Postby Ray » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:50 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:The blue glow suggests the shape of an iris and pupil underneath the patch:



Are we sure she is missing an eye? do we really know that it didnt just got contaminated?


Also when she blinks during the N4I scene, it's clearly shown she's missing an eyelid because the light in the eyepatch does not dim, and though they don't show it in the movie because she's wearing a plugsuit the whole time, I'm confident she has quite a few scars on her body from the Bardiel incident. That scream of pain when Unit 01 crushed the plug. . . brrr.

She called for his help in the retrieval of Unit 01 when she had no logical reason to believe he could help.

Kendrix wrote:Because he's right there, or at least, an Object she'd associate with him (Unit one.)

It's not like she did this emotional little whisper thing where you star praying and wait for death. She wasn't actually calling for help; That would imply expecting a response. She was stressed and complaining at everything around her, perhaps with a touch of, "Yet another situation you bastard got me into". . . Funny how the same people who were whining how 2.0!Asuka hardly had any role/interaction with Shinji at all appart from the sleepover scene are now adamant that this was enough to create a lifelong, unbreakable bond that can totally withstand decades and a whole near-apocalypse...

You're all acting like even implying she no longer cares for him is automatically an attempt to demerit or even cheaply hate on her, but it's simply stating a fact; Sure, a bit more tact here and there could have helped the situation, especially during the dogma battle, but given the circumstances, it's more a sad truth about human nature than it is an indication of Asuka's qualities as a person.

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I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!

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