Undisputed Evidence Towards Shinji Ikari's Bisexuality

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Undisputed Evidence Towards Shinji Ikari's Bisexuality

Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:22 pm

I wanted to make this topic because I noticed that many of the canon evidence and symbolism of Shinji's bisexuality is either ignored or unspoken of on Evageeks and I think this should be discussed. This evidence is easily available to Japanese audiences (which is why Kawoshin is so accepted over there) and discussed a lot on other Evangelion websites, but not here. I want to facilitate good natured discussion on Shinji's bisexuality (AKA this is not about Kaworu's feelings) and possible homosexuality in the Rebuild series. I will split up the overwhelming evidence in two parts (Anime and Rebuild).

I ask that you please read through all the evidence before anything else.

ANIME

The Episode 24 Filmbook clears up a lot of issues with the English translation of Shinji and Kaworu's talk that create ambiguity. Most notably because in Japanese Kaworu uses explicitly romantic language ("I was born to meet [逢 for "meet" has romantic connotation] you") towards him. Anno was not trying to go for platonic friendship. In this way their relationship is blatantly portrayed as romantic.

庵野秀明 パラノ・エヴァンゲリオン (Evangelion : Hideaki Anno : Parano) is an official anthology containing interviews and background info from Anno with a big focus on Evangelion. Here is a page from the book

SPOILER: Show
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Translation:

Nagisa Kaworu The fifth Eva pilot whom Seele sent in. To Shinji, he was both the very first friend he could confide in as well as a same-sex romantic interest. On the account of his true nature as an “Angel”, he attempts to merge with the First Angel, Adam, ensconced in Nerv’s underground, to trigger Third Impact. Driven at the far end of his anguish, Shinji kills that beloved friend of his with Eva Unit-01.



The JUNE magazine Anno interview released after had these excerpts:

SPOILER: Show
Anno: Satsukawa-san is right on the mark when it comes to homoeroticism.
Interviewer: Did you stop Satsukawa-san when it looked like he was going to go berserk, Director Anno?
Anno: No, nothing like that. Satsukawa-san’s atmosphere remains in the script. (the Episode 24 drafts) Satsukawa-san’s original script had more of that sort of meaning and was JUNE-like.
Interviewer: For example?
Anno: I’m the one who went and set it in the bath, though. In the original script, the two of them were swimming naked in a river.
Interviewer: In broad daylight?
Anno: I don’t know; it might’ve been at night.
Interviewer: At night, while showering in the moonlight?
Anno: I don’t know. There was a beautiful picture of the two of them swimming in the river. As might be expected, this was what you’d call above my tolerance level.
Interviewer: The version of the ending, “FLY ME TO THE MOON”, with two boys.
Anno: The producer also rejected it, unfortunately: “As might be expected, I just can’t do this.”
Interviewer: Were there other scenes like that?
Sato: Hmm, he had a cello, right? Together… “I’ll play the piano, so you play the cello!” he said. At night, in a classroom, Kaworu went first, and he was playing; when Shinji softly peeked in on him, “Can you do something, too?” “Next time, let’s do it together.” It had that sort of feeling.

--

Anno: [Kaworu's] image is a little different. Well, as a character, Ishida-kun’s voice was incredibly good, so I wondered whether the stuff that I’d simply thought up on my own wasn’t a little insufficient. I wanted to make him someone that could be loved by anyone, an incredibly good person. By the time Shinji saw him, there was nothing he could do but get a complex.


In 1997, KAWORU NAGISA was lost beforehand in End of Evangelion is another official anthology. Transcript from one of the pages

SPOILER: Show
Who can foresee the future and guess that they can meet again at this moment?
The moment Human Instrumentality Project began, Kaworu’s form appeared in front of him again.
But, is this still the same “him”——
"You have been there all along?"
The question melted in the air. He whispers to Kaworu, facing the lover that he is about to lose.


Another transcript

SPOILER: Show
Evangelion Stage 75, Page 2.
“I was attracted to him.
Deep in my heart.
I don’t know when it began.
I really don’t want to fall in love with a boy like that.
I really don’t want to have friends anymore.
Even so……
Why humans have to be attracted to other people so hopelessly?”

So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”

No matter how many times
“Thank you” and “Goodbye”
Wishing for reunion and leaving.


Now here I want to clear up a common misconception with previous claims that Shinji was desiring Asuka's tits. I won't argue that Shinji is only attracted to boys in the anime, but this evidence is wrong because those were Misato's because he conflates her with Yui/the mother figure (such as when he sees Yui with long hair) and so he was desiring the breast of his/the mother - a major theme in Eva we see especially with Shinji by various imagery/specific shots throughout the series and EoE. He wanted to "return to the womb", a safe place he can't get hurt. That scene had everything to do with his mother issues. Even more obvious when the following sandbox scene has Misato watching as the mom.

Also, this happens right at the same time Kaworu jams the Lance into Shinji-01's core and Shinji sees himself as female. Here is a more clear undisputed visual

SPOILER: Show
Image

Folds of flesh surrounding Unit 01’s Core. Notice the flesh looks just like a vulva.

Image

And this [the core] is of course the metaophorical vagina.

Image

Image

Penetration...

Image

Orgasmic bliss. The drafts make the core-vaginal symbolism very clear:

Image


REBUILD

Now in Rebuild I argue that Anno purposefully took out scenes where Shinji is attracted to girls to show that Kaworu has really become is only love interest. It's very clear looking at the Studio Khara Calender 2014:

SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
Image

This is Diptych of the Duchess and Duke of Urbino by Piero della Francesca. Below are the paintings on the back of each portrait, Allegorical Triumph of Federico da Montefeltro and Allegorical Triumph of Battista Sforza by Piero della Francesca. Accompanied by Angels and the Cardinal virtues, the husband and wife return to the palace of Urbino. Fedrico’s cart is pulled by white horses, Triumph of Love, while Battista’s by unicorns, Triumph of Chastity.

Federico da Montefeltro, nicknamed “the Light of Italy”, is a landmark figure in the history of the Italian Renaissance. He often strolled the streets of Urbino unarmed and unattended, inquiring in shops and businesses as to the well-being of the citizens. His academic interests were the classics.

Battista Sforza received a humanist education and was fluent in Greek and Latin, giving her first Latin public speech at the age of four. The poet Giovanni Santi described Battista as “a maiden with every grace and virtue rare endowed”.

Her uncle Francesco Sforza arranged for her marriage to Federico da Montefeltro, who was much older than her. The wedding took place on 8 February 1460, when Battista was thirteen years old, and she acted as regent during her husband’s absences from Urbino.

Their marriage was a happy one. They were described by a contemporary, Baldi, as “two souls in one body”.

Battista fell ill three months after their seventh child, and died in July 1472. After the death of Battista, Federico spent much of his time in the magnificent palace in Urbino.

Maeda he tried to imitate Francesca’s style by giving Shinji and Kaworu squashed profiles. Look at the jawlines, he drew them exactly like Battista and Federico. Notice Shinji's strong outline.

The landscape background and profile portraits are all classic Pre Renaissance conventions. Best of all, anyone back then would’ve known that these two people were married because they’re facing each other. Sadamoto and Anno use Tanabata references that are easily recognizable to any Japanese person. And then you get Maeda who likes to use historical imagery to symbolize they’re soul mates.


Anno said the posters were fundamental to the movies. The 3.0 poster features Tanabata, "the meeting of the deities Orihime and Hikoboshi, represented by the stars Vega and Altair… Star-crossed lovers separated by the Milky Way.":

SPOILER: Show
Image
Image

Orihime and Hikoboshi loved each other intensely, but were only allowed to be together once a year. Not only that, but Shinji's and Misato's VAs confirmed in a 1997 interview that Kaworu was Shinji's Hikoboshi.

Notice also the color of Shinji's earbuds. They’ve always been black throughout the franchise but for this poster only, they’re red at the end and extend to Kaworu. {The red string of fate}. The act of sharing earbuds alone is something that couples do in Japan. So even people that are unfamiliar with the series think that they’re together because they’re sharing the same set.


One of the earliest teasers had the husband and wife tree actually shaped like a heart.
SPOILER: Show
Image


Well that's the major points. There are many other evidences I could add here, but I wanted to start with these.[/i]
Last edited by obliterates on Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ThanatosII » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:50 pm

Now here I want to clear up a common misconception with previous claims that Shinji was desiring Asuka's tits. I won't argue that Shinji is only attracted to boys in the anime, but this evidence is wrong because those were Misato's because he conflates her with Yui/the mother figure (such as when he sees Yui with long hair) and so he was desiring the breast of his/the mother - a major theme in Eva we see especially with Shinji by various imagery/specific shots throughout the series and EoE.

I'm not quite sure what scene you're referring to, but I assume episode 9 when Asuka lies right next to him?
Anyway. It's pretty clear how much he desires Asuka's body in EoE. When she pins Shinji against the wall of the "hell train", Shinji stares at her breasts. Not only that, but when Shinji is standing face to face with her, you see various sexual pan shots of Asuka's features. Afterwards you see Shinji lick his lips in a creepy "I want that" fashion.
IMO, there's a mix of wanting to return to the womb in a motherly sense, and another aspect is Shinji's desire to have Asuka in a superficial way. "I know all about your jerk off fantasies about me!"

Overall, I don't really buy into any romantic potential in the context of NGE/EoE, whatever pairing it may be. Misato I believe sums up any 'romantic' aspect of Evangelion during the scene she's having sex with Kaji in EoE, "I guess I do these things to prove I exist"
So even if Shinji was able to get closer with Kaworu, it really wouldn't be rooted in love, but instead, just a superficial desire to feel wanted and have his existence validated. I'm just not really seeing, within the context of NGE/EoE only, that Shinji can be counted as bisexual, homosexual, or straight. Just a really confused boy that acts on impulse from anything or anyone that validates him.

Evidence that you provided is interesting nonetheless, but seems that while Kaworu was romantic, sounds like it's mostly one-sided.
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Re: Undisputed Evidence Towards Shinji Ikari's Bisexuality

Postby NemZ » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:52 pm

View Original Postobliterates wrote:I wanted to make this topic because I noticed that many of the canon evidence and symbolism of Shinji's bisexuality is either ignored or unspoken of on Evageeks and I think this should be discussed.


I wasn't aware there was this much effort put into it, but I assumed Shinji's bisexuallity (in fact, if not necessarilly in behavior or in self-concept) was common knowledge. :huh:
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Re: Undisputed Evidence Towards Shinji Ikari's Bisexuality

Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:58 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I wasn't aware there was this much effort put into it, but I assumed Shinji's bisexuallity (in fact, if not necessarilly in behavior or in self-concept) was common knowledge. :huh:


There is more effort put into this than you can imagine. This is only scratching the surface.

I'm not quite sure what scene you're referring to, but I assume episode 9 when Asuka lies right next to him?
Anyway. It's pretty clear how much he desires Asuka's body in EoE.


No. In Eoe, when Shinji is asked what he truly wants, there's a flash of Misato's breasts, then a shot of Shinji clones with breasts, then Kaworu pierces him.

Overall, I don't really buy into any romantic potential in the context of NGE/EoE, whatever pairing it may be. So even if Shinji was able to get closer with Kaworu, it really wouldn't be rooted in love, but instead, just a superficial desire to feel wanted and have his existence validated. I'm just not really seeing, within the context of NGE/EoE only, that Shinji can be counted as bisexual, homosexual, or straight. Just a really confused boy that acts on impulse from anything or anyone that validates him.

Evidence that you provided is interesting nonetheless, but seems that while Kaworu was romantic, sounds like it's mostly one-sided.


Quotes like "He whispers to Kaworu, facing the lover that he is about to lose", "“I was attracted to him. Deep in my heart.", "“Please let me redo again.", and all this blushing

SPOILER: Show
Image
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Don't seem to imply one-sidedness.
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Postby Dataprime » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:00 pm

Why do people care so much whether Shinji is gay or not?
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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:02 pm

View Original PostDataprime wrote:Why do people care so much whether Shinji is gay or not?
SPOILER: Show


For an anime this influential the main character being bisexual is huge.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:10 pm

I dunno why people care so much.

Honestly, I’ve always just thought that Shinji was sexually confused. This isn’t to say that all bisexuals are actually sexually confused. Not at all. People who openly identify themselves as bisexual seem to know exactly what they want: Both.

But everything surrounding Shinji leading up to and following his encounter with Kaworu seems confused on his end. This, again, isn’t to say that he didn’t have those emotions towards Kaworu. He certainly did! But It always looked to me as though he was never quite sure if they were honest emotions, what to do about them if they were honest, or how to approach it.

And NTE, if we are taking into consideration, only emphasizes Shinji’s confused state. Remember, this is a kid who straight up told Kaji “I am a boy you know,” and still screamed when it seemed as though Kaji was actually gonna kiss him in 2.22. Yes, I can understand someone not wanting to be kissed by someone else even if that other person also identifies nicely within your sexual preferences, but Shinji’s defense was “I’m a boy.” Not “I don’t like you,” not “You already have a girlfriend,” or anything else like that. He was rejecting Kaji because they were both male. (Then Kaji says “just kidding” and Shinji’s face is kind of priceless.)

He accepts Kaworu despite the fact that they’re both male.

Clearly Shinji’s confused about his sexuality and his emotions.

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:14 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:And if we are taking NTE into consideration, it only emphasizes Shinji’s confused state. Remember, this is a kid who straight up told Kaji “I am a boy you know,” and still screamed when it seemed as though Kaji was actually gonna kiss him in 2.22. Yes, I can understand someone not wanting to be kissed by someone else even if that other person also identifies nicely within your sexual preferences, but Shinji’s defense was “I’m a boy.” Not “I don’t like you,” not “You already have a girlfriend,” or anything else like that. He was rejecting Kaji because they were both male.

He accepts Kaworu despite the fact that they’re both male.

Clearly Shinji’s confused about his sexuality and his emotions.


I'm sorry, but this is cherrypicking. Notice that when Mari slams into Shinji with her breasts, Shinji does not blush. When Asuka falls into bed with him, Shinji does not blush.

The only time when Shinji blushes in NTE is when Kaji tries to kiss him and when Kaworu talks to him in 3.0. I think Shinji's reaction to Kaji can be easily explained by the fact that Kaji is a 30 year old stranger.

Keep in mind Shinji is still very young. But Khara purposely took out all scenes where Shinji blushes at girls and included ones where he only blushes at guys.
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Postby Dataprime » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:30 pm

Maybe Anno learned about the 'Shinji being gay' debate over the years
and decided to fuck with us in these new movies?

We all know he loves a good laugh.

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:31 pm

View Original PostDataprime wrote:Maybe Anno learned about the 'Shinji being gay' debate over the years
and decided to fuck with us in these new movies?

We all know he loves a good laugh.


Why do you assume that by making Shinji gay/bisexual Anno is trying to troll? With all those historical/mythological references to their relationship in Q (Orihime and Hikoboshi, Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza, the Red String of Fate) plus his sincere interviews in 1997, you think it all boils down to a joke and trolling.
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Postby Dataprime » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:41 pm

View Original Postobliterates wrote:Why do you assume.

I don't assume. I said "maybe"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:44 pm

View Original Postobliterates wrote:I'm sorry, but this is cherry picking.

[...]

The only time when Shinji blushes in NTE is when Kaji tries to kiss him and when Kaworu talks to him in 3.0. I think Shinji's reaction to Kaji can be easily explained by the fact that Kaji is a 30 year old stranger.

So, Shinji didn’t feel sexually aroused upon seeing naked Rei in 1.11, or upon seeing Asuka naked in the kitchen in 2.22, the latter of the two clearly did have him blushing? Or did you just forget? (Don’t accuse me of cherry picking when you obviously have forgotten the greater context.)

I’m not cherrypicking, nor am I arguing against Shinji’s newly-found bisexual leanings. I’m simply arguing that he’s simply confused over them, especially in NTE.

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:48 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:So, Shinji didn’t blush upon seeing naked Rei in 1.11, or upon seeing Asuka naked in the kitchen in 2.22?


I had a memory lapse with those , but there's a difference between reacting with a blush at someone you're not supposed to see naked actually being naked in front of you (with Asuka and Rei, the context isn't necessarily romantic or sexual, just embarrassing) and blushing when a man is about to kiss you and a boy starts talking to you. (two very sexual/romantic contexts, even complete with the phrase "gender has nothing to do with love." With the level Anno took Kaworu and Shinji's relationship symbols, do you think it's a coincidence they decided to add that line in?)

Regardless it's clear that Anno has made Kaworu to be Shinji's official love interest in Q.
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Postby xanderkh » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:01 pm

Dude, I can understand why you'd be inclined to prove that Shinji is bisexual, and you've done a lot of homework.

But, it looks like you're taking this TOO seriously, so much so that you're denying us the possibility to entertain ourselves with other ships. Take me for example, like Gob, I'm a HUGE AsukaxShinji shipper, and I will take that ship to my grave. But I don't go around denying people their ships with all these facts. I just understand that people have their own preferences, and I respect that. :lol:

Plus, there's STILL one movie left for Rebuild, so it's still kind of up in the air who Shinji will end up with, if anybody at all.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:04 pm

Oh, Shinji and Kaworu’s love interests were clear by their interactions in Q. I’m just not all that convinced that Shinji knew what to do about it. The whole context of Q is meant to throw Shinji in a state of over-all confusion, the subject of sexuality not being saved from that sense of confusion. I’m not sure Shinji knew he had the capacity for a homosexual relationship until Q came around. He doesn’t seek romantic relationships with any boy his age prior to Q, and that incident with Kaji would make the blood rush to anyone’s head, really. That’s just how biology works when it comes to strong emotions, whether they be love or panic.

The point is that whatever Shinji had experienced with Kaworu wouldn’t have had opportunity for arousal if Shinji didn’t feel as outcasted and as lonely as he did at that point in time. Kaworu’s point of attack (we cannot forget that he’s an Angel) seems very precise, almost signifying that it wouldn’t have worked other any other circumstances. (Kaworu probably would have bounced off of Shinji like water on rock if they had met at any point in 2.22.)

And Shinji’s interest in Rei is clearly sexual. That much is shown my the hand gestures in 1.11 after accidentally groping her, and then there’s that really prominent swallowing he does right after. Salivation doesn’t just come from a lack of arousal, you know.

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:09 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Dude, I can understand why you'd be inclined to prove that Shinji is bisexual, and you've done a lot of homework.

But, it looks like you're taking this TOO seriously, so much so that you're denying us the possibility to entertain ourselves with other ships. Take me for example, like Gob, I'm a HUGE AsukaxShinji shipper, and I will take that ship to my grave. But I don't go around denying people their ships with all these facts. I just understand that people have their own preferences, and I respect that. :lol:

Plus, there's STILL one movie left for Rebuild, so it's still kind of up in the air who Shinji will end up with, if anybody at all.


Where did I deny any ship? Point to where I denied a ship.

And to be frank ignoring these evidences fully and discarding the canon fact that Shinji had an attraction to Kaworu, and that they were meant to be love interests in Q, is misinterpreting Shinji's character. You can still ship Asushin while acknowledging Shinji's feelings for Kaworu, and their relationship in Q, because it is canon.
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Postby Dataprime » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:10 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
The point is that whatever Shinji had experienced with Kaworu wouldn’t have had opportunity for arousal if Shinji didn’t feel as outcasted and as lonely as he did at that point in time..

Bingo

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:11 pm

"The point is that whatever Shinji had experienced with Kaworu wouldn’t have had opportunity for arousal if Shinji didn’t feel as outcasted and as lonely as he did at that point in time.."

You sound very self assured in this. Can you prove it or is that just your opinion?
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:29 pm

View Original Postobliterates wrote:You sound very self assured in this. Can you prove it or is that just your opinion?

It all depends on which Kaworu we’re talking about. NGE Kaworu outright admits to Shinji that he’s been toying with his emotions at first, only later discovering that he also had honest feelings for him in some way. And, in that context, we have seen other Angels also try to get into Shinji’s head in other ways, (heck, we’ve even seen Yui try to get into Shinji’s head), and the episodes which explore these head-probings clearly show that Shinji rejects them only because he has a human support base that he can return to. However in Ep 24 he no longer has that strong support base, and that’s when we see him finally give in.

NTE Kaworu is a bit more mysterious than all that. Though, from what we can see of him, it’s clear that he can survive the bitter elements of outer space. We also know that some of the Angels can also travel through space themselves. Even if Kaworu, despite also being an Angel, didn’t have the capabilities of space flight specifically, there’s no reason why he can’t hitch a ride on one of the space-traveling Angels in the 2.22 film to get himself off of the moon and travel to planet Earth in order to make contact with Shinji at a sooner date. Unless, of course, that reason would be that he knew meeting Shinji sooner wouldn’t have worked in his favor at the time. (How he would know this is just as beyond me as how he could have met with Shinji or even have known who Shinji is prior to Q. So far, the Tabris only works in mysterious ways.)

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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:31 pm

View Original PostThanatosII wrote:Afterwards you see Shinji lick his lips in a creepy "I want that" fashion.

...That was Asuka.

*looks again* Okay, now I'm really not sure. (Wow this quality is bad.) Anyway, it also happens before the pan shots -- not that that matters much.
Last edited by Monk Ed on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"NGE is like a perfectly improvised jazz piece. It builds on a standard and then plays off it from there, and its developments may occasionally recall what it's done before as a way of keeping the whole concatenated." -- Eva Yojimbo
"To me watching anime is not just for killing time or entertainment, it is a life style, and a healthy one too." -- symbv
"That sounds like the kind of science that makes absolutely 0 sense when you stop and think about it... I LOVE IT." -- Rosenakahara


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