Who will die in Final.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:51 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:See, I always felt that the weird stuff with the 12th Angel happened long after the people became FoIs, and was therefore a different incident all together.

My head-canon for the 14 year time gap:

N3I_ 11th Angel _ 12th Angel=3I+FoIs _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ Events of Q
|------------------------------------------------------- 14 years -------------------------------------------------------|

N3I and the disabling of Unit-01 left Nerv's defences wide open, or at least subject to the whim of Kaworu, an angel himself! For all we know, Kaworu deliberately allowed the 12th angel to reach Lilith and retrigger 3I, letting it run further this time (whether he again stops it short depends on what we think constitutes the "completion" of an impact event).
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:07 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:See, I always felt that the weird stuff with the 12th Angel happened long after the people became FoIs, and was therefore a different incident all together. Especially since we didn’t see any clues of the 12th Angel’s presence at the end of 2.22, which was the only incident that Q implied turned the people into FoIs. Kaworu doesn’t mention the incident with the 12th Angel as being the same incident as the “FoIs are people!!!” incident, so I never thought to conflate the two as the same incident.

First, you're assuming that FoIs are people, which is never hinted in Q and thus is still an hypothesis. Second, the stinger of 2.0 points toward the FoIs not having been created during N3I, since when Kaworu impaled EVA-01, there wasn't any trace of any giant headless statues bursting out of the main shaft to wreck havoc on the surface (and NERV HQ was still at ground level during the stinger, you can see the edge of the gutted Geofront in the background when Kaworu is descending with Mark.06.


View Original Postpwhodges wrote:N3I and the disabling of Unit-01 left Nerv's defences wide open, or at least subject to the whim of Kaworu, an angel himself! For all we know, Kaworu deliberately allowed the 12th angel to reach Lilith and retrigger 3I, letting it run further this time (whether he again stops it short depends on what we think constitutes the "completion" of an impact event).

That would make Kaworu one hell of a SOB and the biggest yandere since Yuna from Mirai Nikki. :lol:

Still, I think that you're timeline is the more probable.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:21 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:N3I and the disabling of Unit-01 left Nerv's defences wide open, or at least subject to the whim of Kaworu, an angel himself! For all we know, Kaworu deliberately allowed the 12th angel to reach Lilith and retrigger 3I, letting it run further this time (whether he again stops it short depends on what we think constitutes the "completion" of an impact event).

That would imply that Kaworu was misleading Shinji in some way while he showed Shinji the epicenter for N3I. But, that could very well be the case, seeing as how the choir in the underlying musical score is singing “Learn to trust, if you must..."

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:First, you're assuming that FoIs are people, which is never hinted in Q and thus is still an hypothesis. Second, the stinger of 2.0 points toward the FoIs not having been created during N3I, since when Kaworu impaled EVA-01, there wasn't any trace of any giant headless statues bursting out of the main shaft to wreck havoc on the surface (and NERV HQ was still at ground level during the stinger, you can see the edge of the gutted Geofront in the background when Kaworu is descending with Mark.06.

Q leaves visual hints in its editing, what with Kaowru speech in the middle of the movie. (Keeps cutting to the FoIs as Kaowru relays what Shinji did.) And we keep forgetting that we have a very narrow and limited scope of N3I in 2.0. We act as though we’ve seen all there was so see going on there, when in actuality we only get a handful of shots that aren’t close-ups of Shinji and Rei and full shots of Unit 01. 2.0’s constant gaze of Unit 01 and its immediate surroundings skillfully keeps the viewer from noticing too much outside of the whole gravity shift thing.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:34 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:First, you're assuming that FoIs are people, which is never hinted in Q and thus is still an hypothesis.

Some of them appear to be bursting out from buildings, which presumably contained people before; I see this as a hint, myself. And they're clearly individuals of some sort, so why not those already available? Perhaps they are a stage in the collection of souls into instrumentality which was started but then left hanging.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:That would imply that Kaworu was misleading Shinji in some way while he showed Shinji the epicenter for N3I. But, that could very well be the case,

I'm certain of that, and I think ElMariachi agrees to some extent - though I probably go further along the road of entertaining bad thoughts about Kaworu!
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:49 am

Dang, Kaworu! You scary!
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:22 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Some of them appear to be bursting out from buildings, which presumably contained people before; I see this as a hint, myself. And they're clearly individuals of some sort, so why not those already available? Perhaps they are a stage in the collection of souls into instrumentality which was started but then left hanging.

I got the feeling it's the contrary that was implied: that the FoIs fused with the buildings. If you look closely when Kaworu explained to Shinji what happened, none of the buildings or house are exploded, which would had happened if the people turned into FoIs, on the contrary the FoIs were perfectly fused with the buildings.


View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I'm certain of that, and I think ElMariachi agrees to some extent - though I probably go further along the road of entertaining bad thoughts about Kaworu!

I go rather far too, in fact I'm sure that he deliberately misled Shinji on what exactly happened so he could be convinced to follow his plan with the spears, although Kaworu did it with good intentions: Shinji's happiness, or at least what he perceived would be Shinji's happiness.
I even made a thread about it back in the day.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:38 pm

I don’t see any possible use an Eva would have with an apartment suck on its back. Nor so I see how that’s even possible.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:15 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I don’t see any possible use an Eva would have with an apartment suck on its back. Nor so I see how that’s even possible.

Me neither, but that's how it looks like.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:29 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:none of the buildings or house are exploded, which would had happened if the people turned into FoIs, on the contrary the FoIs were perfectly fused with the buildings.

I think you may be attributing too much significance to this.

The entire landscape along with the FoIs are made of core. We have no knowledge of how core entities would interact with core surroundings. What little we know of "core" suggests it is very strange. It may simply be that if an entire landscape is turned to core, any lifeforms within that are transfigured to core-beings will simply "phase" through their surroundings. An alternate and perhaps simpler way of looking at it is that they're like Lilith in EoE: they became immaterial during the growth phase and, once free of their confines, they solidify.

I can't remember what you propose the FoIs are supposed to be if they're not transfigured humans, but, at least, this "bursting out" vs. "phasing" issue that keeps coming up seems immaterial to the issue of whether they are people or not. Yes, they're not bursting out -- a quality copy of the film made that clear -- but there's also no reason I see for why "FoI as failed Instrumentality" doesn't account for what we're shown. If hypothetical non-people!FoIs can phase through a landscape, hypothetical people!FoIs can do it, too.
Last edited by Reichu on Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:43 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This does seem to be what you assume happens if the FoI aren't people -- though I forget what you think they're supposed to be instead --

Because of all the skulls inside Lilith's Chamber and the thousands of FoIs crawling the walls out to the chamber, my theory is that they were a construct of Lilith when she awoke, maybe as a reaction to the 12th Angel reaching her, and got out to the surface, starting to merge with the ground for an unknown reason.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:32 am

It is far simpler to conclude that people!FoIs were crawling the walls, possibly also trying to escape the 12th Angel like chickens with their heads cut off, than it is to assume that they were created by the Lilith. The mechanics of LCL currently shown to us in NTE don't account for such a fast evolution of Evas, whereas an Impact of some kind gives more plausibility to their existance. And the only pact we know of that could have done this was N3I.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:46 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:And the only pact we know of that could have done this was N3I.

That or a proper Third Impact that happened sometimes later that involved the 12th Angel, since he obviously reached Lilith with the "help" of Mark.06.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:26 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:That would make Kaworu one hell of a SOB and the biggest yandere since Yuna from Mirai Nikki. :lol:


Yeah, except Yuna's cute.
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Postby zlink64 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:33 am

I've only watched rebuild passively so I could be wrong but It looks to me like the story for Shinji is exactly the same as far as character arc goes. The difference in plot seem superficial to Shinij's character arc when compared to the show. So what I'm saying is Shinji story is the same just different names, places, and times. That being said I think Asuka will make out with Shinji and maybe say her version of we'll finish later and then die.

Shinji is in the same place mentally at the end of rebuild 3 as he is when Misato finds him Eoe under the stairs. Misato calls Shinji a brat during EoE while she is dragging him along but in rebuild now we Asuka calling him a brat and dragging him along also I take the switch between idiot and brat to mean Asuka partially views Shinji as a kid and not an equal anymore like MisatoxShinji role confusion. Misato is twice Shinji's age and they have sexual tension. Asuka is twice Shinji's age now and they have sexual tension or at least I'm pretty sure Asuka has got some serious boyfriend/Shinji issues based off how she has reacted to Shinji's return.

Random speculation: I think Shinji will go back in time or there will be some return to the beginning like the manga and Asuka will be there alive because I can't imagine the show ending with out AuskaXShinji unless Anno makes enormous dramatic changes to Shinji or changes the story to the point of it no longer being a retelling(of the shows ending at least) or decides to just ignore Asuka which would be really weird.
Basically I'd be really surprised...that wouldn't be bad though.


So I think she'll die but not permanently...I guess same as before.
Last edited by zlink64 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
hmmm

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Postby Sicarius VI » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:58 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Shinji is in the same place mentally at the end of rebuild 3 as he is when Misato finds in Eoe under the stairs. Misato calls Shinji a brat during EoE while she is dragging him along but in rebuild now we Asuka calling him a brat and dragging him along. Misato is twice Shinji's age and they have sexual tension. Asuka is twice Shinji's age now and they have sexual tension or at least I'm pretty sure Asuka has got some serious boyfriend/Shinji issues based off how she has reacted to Shinji's return.



I never thought of it that way before. Thanks!

IIRC people have said in other threads and I think earlier in this one that Shinji may make a heroic sacrifice at the cost of his life in Final. Thing is that Anno with at least Eva isn't the way it usually goes as character learn to live with there decisions rather than be released by death.

Actually I am pretty sure someone around here has said this exact same scenario, but the only thing we can do is wait and see. (Don't get me wrong seeing something like the above would be awesome but I don't know and I realize this likely contradicts myself in the past but I have had time think about Final and the one thing I do know is that we shouldn't expect something to happen in Final).
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:38 am

zlink64, that's an interesting hypothesis. I've seen some gifs recently that highlight some of the parallels between End of Evangelion and Q. One, that I sadly didn't save, shows Misato pulling Shinji by the arm, and then morphs into Asuka doing the same.

And then you have this:
SPOILER: Show
Image


Shinji and Asuka's relationship is greatly reduced in Rebuild compared to NGE and most of the teasing has been removed, so I'm honestly be surprised if they go for this shipping angle this time. There just isn't much foundation there at the moment. Which could change in Final of course!

As for the deaths in Final, I think Anno might pull a fast one on us and have nobody die, save Gendo/Fuyutsuki, or even go a step further, undo some of the deaths in the previous movie, and actually end with a negative death toll. The Rebuild movies happily tweak the viewer's expectations: Ramiel survives a successful shot and comes back for round 2. Asuka pilots Unit 02 instead of Toji and the Eva grows extra arms to fight Shinji, Zeruel eats Rei, who doesn't actually die. The whole 3.0 preview. Kaworu's death was played straight unless you were expecting him survive.

Most people are predicting an End of Evangelion-level blood bath where Anno channels his inner Tomino and takes a hatchet to the cast, so maybe he won't. In fact, that already happened, albeit with secondary characters. Maybe now he'll show us how the world recovers from that kind of devastation.

Fuyutsuki said rebuilding the world is difficult, he didn't say you couldn't do it! :D

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Postby Sakura Shiro » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:54 am

I believe that nobody will die, i think its more to the point that we look at any new potential characters? I found pieces of leaked content one time when i was looking around for fan art; Jet alone gets a stage to play in the 4th film? yes, well so this source says, now mind you i cannot track the source as it was taken down by Studio Khara themselves, but i took the contents in hopes it may interest this forum...

LEAKED EXCERPT FROM EVA 4.0 SCRIPT
ABOARD THE WUNDER
SAKURA SUZUHRA: It’s hopeless…
THE FINAL IMPACT SLOWLY SPREADS ACROSS THE GROUND, BUILDINGS ROT AT THE FOUNDATIONS, PLANTS WITHER. 
MAYA IBUKI: We have approximately four months until what’s left of this earth is destroyed by the Impact’s encroach.
RITSUKO AKAGI: Not necessarily. Shinji’s AT Field is still locked in with Lilith’s. If we can find some way to remove the entry plug from Unit 01, then…
KOZO FUYUTSUKI: I’m not sure how. All of our drones were destroyed in the battle with the Eleventh Angel and the unstable vibration levels crush anything airborne at more than 117 kilometres an hour. Perhaps one of the remaining Eva units?
SHIGERU AOBA: Not possible. On foot, it would take an Eva 90 days to walk that distance! IF the radiation didn’t kill the pilot first. An air-drop is also out of the question as well, I see.
RITSUKO ANGRILY BUTTS OUT HER CIGARETTE
Misato KATSURAGI: Don’t worry. I think I have one last trump card left up my sleeve. We need an unmanned unit which can walk in a single direction for 90 days?
JET ALONE RISES FROM WITHIN TERMINAL DOGMA, CARRYING A LANCE OF LONGINUS. KENSUKE AIDA STARTS TO PLAY UNIT 02’S THEME ON HIS TRUMPET


now if I recall correctly there was a Japanese version of this part of the script I had to translate, but given some of the content seems to be not matching with the 3.33 plot line... i.e. " JET ALONE RISES FROM WITHIN TERMINAL DOGMA" when clearly theres a Wunder being used?

who knows, this is just a good potential fanwank afterall ^_^
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Postby driftking18594 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:57 pm

SSD, how do you know Khara took it down?

I had a deep feeling of dread reading that - dread of Asuka and/or Mari dying. :(

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Postby Sakura Shiro » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:40 pm

driftking18594 wrote:SSD, how do you know Khara took it down?

I had a deep feeling of dread reading that - dread of Asuka and/or Mari dying. :(


When i went back to the source the next couple of days, it came up with "rights reserved, content belongs to Studio Khara"-- along those lines...
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:12 pm

What do ya need me for, Driftking? :huh:

What's the source, Sakura?

A leaked script by the Japanese studio Khara wouldn't be posted in English either way... Fake for sure, claims of leaks are nothing new for the NTE series (so many forum posts about this sorta thing over the years). Khara's been super secretive about New Theatrical Edition throughout the years, to boot.

Fuyutsuki in Wille's company when he's supposedly with Gendo is suspect too. It all reads like a fanfic script. Kensuke cameo was hilarious.
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