So about that whole 'Evas come from Adam' thing....

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So about that whole 'Evas come from Adam' thing....

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Postby slothen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:00 pm

So there's that image of unit-01 being created from Lilith, and this explains a lot of things. For example, it ties up a lot of loose ends about Rei and Yui, such as how Rei would come from the failed Yui-salvage operation ending up with Lilith's soul.

However, it also implies that the other Evangelions were created via a similar process, as they are related to or made from "Adam stuff." This satisfied me for a long time and was a great explanation. In particular it gives us an awesome origin for the evas beyond "we grew them in tubes, then they got really big." From the wiki (http://wiki.evageeks.org/Evangelions) "asexual amoeba-like fission process with either Adam or Lilith." This is awesome.

But there's one glaring flaw. There's no giant Adam around when all these failed prototypes were created, or later when unit-02 and the other production models were produced. So all we really know is how unit-01 came into being.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:06 pm

Uh...nothing says it was the exact same process. The Adam embryo is in storage, samples can be taken and grown up.

Even Unit 01 is genetically derived from Adam, it was just grown from Lilith as a surrogate mother (and Yui did her Contact Experiment while the two were still fused).
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:18 pm

What Aura said. Adam's embryo was living and growing even when it was preserved in hardened bakelite - under more favorable conditions a few cells from it might conceivably grow into a full-size Evangelion.
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Postby slothen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:37 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Uh...nothing says it was the exact same process. The Adam embryo is in storage, samples can be taken and grown up.


Minus this being way lame compared to unit-01. Plus if you can grow Evas in tubes from a sample of DNA/PWM, that kind of undercuts the coolness of Unit-01's origin. But I accept that this is how it happens.

Even Unit 01 is genetically derived from Adam, it was just grown from Lilith as a surrogate mother


This can't be right, or at least it doesn't make sense to phrase it this way (semantics fight incoming). Gendo's interest in unit-01 can largely be explained by the presence of Yui's soul, but unit-01's special role/potential in 3I is only explained by its Lilith-ness. Unit-01 is genetically Lilith (whatever "genetic" means in this context). It sounds like you're suggesting its genetically Adam but made of Lilith-PWM, but I don't think we have any reason to differentiate different kinds of PWM, when its just as well explained by all PWM being the same but the genetics themselves being different.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:04 pm

View Original Postslothen wrote:This can't be right, or at least it doesn't make sense to phrase it this way (semantics fight incoming).


It's canon, not interpretation. I don't like it either, but we're stuck with it.
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Postby EvangelionGodMode » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:17 pm

With adam being as small as it was, i wonder if the angels would be able to find it or him. I mean when zeruel and kaworu both went down to central dogma ,gendo was right there and i assume by then that gendo already infused the adam thing into his arm. But both made no attempt to return to adam.
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Postby Jäeger » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:16 am

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Uh...nothing says it was the exact same process. The Adam embryo is in storage, samples can be taken and grown up.

Even Unit 01 is genetically derived from Adam, it was just grown from Lilith as a surrogate mother (and Yui did her Contact Experiment while the two were still fused).


Errr......NO, 01 is a clone of lillith, grown from her legs. That's what makes EVA01 different from other EVAS, and that's why SEELE chooses it as a medium to purchase 3I.

First time in my life I've heard 01 comes from Adam.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:22 am

View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:With adam being as small as it was, i wonder if the angels would be able to find it or him. I mean when zeruel and kaworu both went down to central dogma ,gendo was right there and i assume by then that gendo already infused the adam thing into his arm. But both made no attempt to return to adam.


Pretty sure Gendo ate the embryo after Zeruel (the manga shows it at some point, IIRC)l. And Kaworu is a . . . special case.
Last edited by Bagheera on Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sachi » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:24 am

View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:With adam being as small as it was, i wonder if the angels would be able to find it or him. I mean when zeruel and kaworu both went down to central dogma ,gendo was right there and i assume by then that gendo already infused the adam thing into his arm. But both made no attempt to return to adam.

It appears that the Angels have varied objectives, and that not all of them are attempting to simply reach Adam.

Relevant: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/5870/Angel-Motivations-Adam-Lilith-Confusion/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/10302/various-questions-15-years-prophecy-angel-intentions-etc/
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:51 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:It appears that the Angels have varied objectives, and that not all of them are attempting to simply reach Adam.

Relevant: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/5870/Angel-Motivations-Adam-Lilith-Confusion/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/10302/various-questions-15-years-prophecy-angel-intentions-etc/


Also, Gaghiel apparently had no difficulties when it came to detecting Adam.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:47 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:Errr......NO, 01 is a clone of lillith, grown from her legs. That's what makes EVA01 different from other EVAS, and that's why SEELE chooses it as a medium to purchase 3I.

First time in my life I've heard 01 comes from Adam.


...Reading comprehension, sir. She did grow out of Lilith, but the genetics are donated by Adam. That's why Unit 01...looks EXACTLY. LIKE. ADAM.

Goodness gracious, you realize surrogate mothers exist in real life? And that living beings can inherit traits from their mothers through non-genetic means, such as hormone exposure? Unit 01 is an Adam Clone that is "of Lilith", it's useful for substituting Lilith for that reason alone, just as the other Evas (including Unit 01) can possibly substitute for Adam if necessary.

That Unit 01 is an Adam clone is canonical; it's not up for debate. Yea, it's not as cool as being a Lilith clone, I agree, but them's the breaks.

With adam being as small as it was, i wonder if the angels would be able to find it or him. I mean when zeruel and kaworu both went down to central dogma ,gendo was right there and i assume by then that gendo already infused the adam thing into his arm. But both made no attempt to return to adam.


It's possible Lilith's 'signal' is covering up Adam's precisely because he's a little embryo. Kaworu demonstrates the Angels have difficulty telling the two apart.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:21 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:...Reading comprehension, sir. She did grow out of Lilith, but the genetics are donated by Adam.


That makes absolute no sense.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:45 pm

Why is surrogacy so difficult to understand?
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Postby NemZ » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:25 pm

1) collect Adam sample (blowing up half the planet optional)
2) jam that shit into Lilith and get it to grow like a crazy tumor into an eva
4) contact experiment because why not?
5) salvage operation gives back some Yui sludge
6) jam that shit into Llith get a bunch of clones and one with Lilith's soul
7) cut the eva loose and finish installing armor and stuff
8) keep picking the clones off that thing as they ripen and toss them in a goldfish bowl for safe keeping.
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Postby pwhodges » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:39 pm

^ What a shame that's too long for a sig quote!
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Postby El Squibbonator » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:54 pm

You could always reduce it to:

Step 1--collect Adam sample.
Step 2
Step3--Profit!
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Postby Sorrow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:03 pm

If they can just "jam that shit into Lilith" to "get a bunch of clones" then why is Unit-01 the only Eva noted to be connected to Lilith in some way? Surely it would have been far more practical for them to create all the Evas that way? That's beside the point - I know, I know.

I'm confused about this also; I've never read before, or heard, that Lilith was just a surrogate for Unit-01. Can someone point to where this is officially stated; be it in show or in print?

Unit-01 looks no more like Adam than it looks like Lilith - same for all the Eva units. Perhaps, though, you were talking about the armour design? In that case... I suppose... but... surely Unit-01 would still be less like Adam than any of the others?

Unit-01's page on the wiki section simply states:
View Original PostEvageeks.org wrote:Unlike the other Evas, its body was generated directly from the body of Lilith, and is consequently referred to as Lilith's "offspring" or "clone."[2] On a physical level, Eva-01 has the same characteristics as an Adam-based (i.e., any other) Evangelion, so the exact nature of its relationship to Lilith remains a subject of debate
So why are people treating it like common knowledge that it's Adam derived but "jammed into Lilith" to be a surrogate?

In regards to it being very similar to an Adam based Eva: Lilith and Adam are noticeably similar, so you wouldn't expect a clone of either to be very different. That extra information seems rather redundant in regards to it confusing the matter.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:43 pm

Regarding the "clone" line from EoE: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Eva-01_and_Lilith
Regarding the "grown from lilth": https://wiki.evageeks.org/File:Tank_image_11a_bunshin.jpg

That image appears in the background of the overlays during the Rei clone tank, as well as the full Opening.

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Postby Sorrow » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:52 pm

People are speaking here as if it is undeniably canon that cells from Adam was placed into Lilith and grown from her - I just don't see it. I'm probably just going to come across as being awkward or un-willing to accept evidence to those who have already posted stating the "canon" but I'll explain using the links that were posted.

"Lilith no Bunshin" The term used by Chairman Keel to describe Eva-01 is rather ambiguous. "Lilith no Bunshin" does not necessarily mean "clone of Lilith", but it might also mean "alter ego" or "inheritor". Eva-02 is rather similarly referred to as "Adam no Bunshin" by Kaworu, although Eva-02 cannot have been created from Adam in the same manner that Eva-01 was created out of Lilith (due to Adam having exploded by the time).
Since Eva-02--or any other unit--has never been noted to have any connection to Lilith then it is assumed that it is grown from Adam's DNA and Adam's alone. Hence referred to as "Adam no Bunshin". Unit-01 being similarly referred to as "Lilith no Bunshin" only serves to imply that it is to Lilith as Eva-02 is to Adam; be that "clone", "inheritor" or "alter ego" doesn't seem to matter much - it amounts to the same thing.

Evangelion Unit-02 = relation to Adam.
Evangelion Unit-01 = relation to Lilith.

There seems to be little to distinguish Eva-01 from any other Evangelion in means of capabilities, it has no major difference in appearance either.
Not really an issue because Lilith isn't unlike Adam at all - from what we can see. They're both very large, white humanoids; they both come with a moon, a spear and presumably dead sea scrolls and both are seeds of life, so we'd expect them to be of similar "power" and abilities.

Like Adam, the Angels and all Evangelions, but unlike Lilith and Lilin, Eva-01 possesses a core containing the Eva's soul.
It is quite curious that Eva-01 should possess a core, unlike Lilith, like Adam. If they clone Adam however, purely from Adam, then why can they not clone Lilith in the same way? Why should Adam be required in Unit-01's birth? Clearly a core is not necessary to house a soul as we've seen in Lilith and the Lilin so what could unit-01 gain, or need, from Adam's DNA?

[s]Eva-01 may be a genetic clone of Lilith with the body form and core of an Adam-based Eva.[/s] Eva-01 may have inherited other properties. Even if it had genes derived from Adam, the matter it was made of originated from Lilith. Eva-01 being born from Lilith might have allowed it to gain Lilith's metaphysical "fruit of knowledge".
Does anyone have an answer as to why that would be necessary? It's undeniably possible to clone a seed (seen with Adam) and a their progeny (seen with Lilin) so it's illogical to assume the same couldn't be done with Lilith alone.

As for the image: all it shows is unit-01's birthing process whereby it is grown from Lilith's bottom half. Nothing new there.

I'm willing to believe that Adam was involved in unit-01's creation - it certainly can be taken that way. I'm just not sure it's really "canon" as people seem to say. There is no reason--that I can see--why this should be required and there is nothing--that I can see--that seems to officially state as much.
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Postby Sachi » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:18 pm

@Sorrow: This image right here:
SPOILER: Show
Image
is the canonical explanation that tells us that Eva-01 was born literally from Lilith's flesh, and is not a simple clone. This procedure took a huge toll on Lilith, and is why she is without a lower half for most of the series; that is why it's impossible to produce the other Evas this way. This operation also suggests to us the simply cloning Lilith to produce an Eva is not an option like it is with Adam. Could have something to do with their binary nature and the Fruits that they can pass on.

While I'm not the one suggesting that she was a surrogate for Adam DNA, since I honestly have little knowledge surrounding that, I'm guessing it's for the reason I just stated above: since they can't clone Lilith, the only option was to use her as a surrogate. It was worth at least one attempt, and thus we have the Test-Type Evangelion Unit-01.
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