Shinji and The Spears

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Shinji and The Spears

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Postby Tumbling Down » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:16 pm

Let me pull a quote from a closed thread.

Halfway to pull the Spears, Asuka attacks along with Mari, they fight Eva-13 and halfway, Kaworu notices that the Spears are the same(?). He tells Shinji to stop repeatedly, telling him that they aren't the Spears they came for. Shinji retorts with stupid lines like "Let's just pull the Spears quickly!" and "That's why I got in the Eva!" Earlier Shinji told Kaworu that he seemed to know everything, Kaworu gave Shinji the information about the mission in the first place. Yet, when he and everyone around him continually tells him to not pull the spears he knew nothing about 20 minutes earlier, he continues the mission even going as far as to cut the controls from Kaworu and do it himself. Naturally, this causes Fourth Impact.

Yeah.. what IS up with that? I figured it's because Shinji didn't understand what situation he was actually in and just wanted it to end as quickly as possible, but it's something definitely worth discussing.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:38 pm

Because it's sloppy writing and Anno didn't have it in him to do an 18th draft of the 3.0 screenplay. If Kaworu had died BEFORE the whole mission or wasn't in constant contact with Shinji in order to beg him not to pull the spears, than I would have bought the scene. But, for Shinji to straight up ignore Kaworu during all that is an idiot ball move that is so massive and illogical even for Shinji, that it completely takes me out of the film. Honestly, Shinji jacking off over Asuka in EoE was more understandable than his complete disregard of the person he seems to trust most in Rebuild.

Anno should've just had his Eva unit get damaged by Asuka to the point where the communication between Kaworu and Shinji would have been severed. Then, you'd have Kaworu yelling for Shinji to stop only for it to be impossible for him to hear. Kaworu could still save the day in a sacrificial manner and Shinji would discover his body for the stinger at the end of the film or something like that.
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And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby Tumbling Down » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:49 pm

I agree with all of that 'cept I really want to believe there's something more significant at play.

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Postby Lennik » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:02 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think Shinji had anything to do with the communications being severed. I thought that was by Gendo's design.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:09 pm

View Original PostLennik wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think Shinji had anything to do with the communications being severed. I thought that was by Gendo's design.


:huh:

I was just tossing out a hypothetical scenario to make the scene more believable. I'm pretty sure his communication with Kaworu wasn't severed at all in the actual film.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby Lennik » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:16 pm

Whoops, I wasn't thinking when I typed that. Meant to say Kaworu's controls were severed.

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Re: Shinji and The Spears

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:39 am

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:Yeah.. what IS up with that? I figured it's because Shinji didn't understand what situation he was actually in and just wanted it to end as quickly as possible, but it's something definitely worth discussing.

It's perfectly clear, it's what Anno intended, and you almost got there in what you said yourself. Shinji wants to get it done, to fix the world so that he won't be hated any more, and he is not diverted by Kaworu because he is too broken psychologically to properly take in or comprehend anything that is not part of his obsession to fix things and thus clear his supposed guilt, which he is so close to achieving.

It's just that some people have no real-world experience either in themselves or in their observation of others that enables them to understand this state of mind, so they just say "idiot ball" and "bad writing" when actually they're simply missing the point.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:45 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Because it's sloppy writing.

Hmmm...Nah.
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Postby Tumbling Down » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:09 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It's perfectly clear, it's what Anno intended, and you almost got there in what you said yourself. Shinji wants to get it done, to fix the world so that he won't be hated any more, and he is not diverted by Kaworu because he is too broken psychologically to properly take in or comprehend anything that is not part of his obsession to fix things and thus clear his supposed guilt, which he is so close to achieving.

It's just that some people have no real-world experience either in themselves or in their observation of others that enables them to understand this state of mind, so they just say "idiot ball" and "bad writing" when actually they're simply missing the point.

So I wasn't projecting after all! :asuka_happy:

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:44 pm

I don't think it was a case of making Shinji act stupid to advance the plot so much as it was making him act stupid to show his desperation. Having said that, I still think it was rather shoddy writing.

If a person (Kaworu) has a plan to rectify your (Shinji's) ails then regardless of how desperate you are, it would be pure idiocy to disregard their obvious concern - for both your well being and their own confusion. Shinji had no real knowledge on the matter and, desperate or not, a person would tread more carefully and allow the one who's plan it was in the first place to call the shots and lead.

I think it was far too easy to show Shinji being desperate by simply making him blindly disregard Kaworu's pleas and advice. Could we have not seen Shinji break down and question why he must cease? Why nothing ever goes right for him - maybe even lash out at Kaworu for having given him false hope? Maybe to have Kaworu oblige Shinji regardless--because he wants to ease his pain--and so, knowingly, Kaworu plays the sacrifice because he isn't the type to actively deny/defy Shinji. I think it may have made Kaworu's death a bit more tragic and Shinji's actions more naïve and innocently desperate than blatantly stupid.

I've not found another scene in which I think Shinji is acting ridiculous given the situation. 3.0 gives me an awful vibe like it was written by a happy, successful man pretending to be depressed and understand people - or something.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:20 pm

Is this the first thread exclusively dedicated to this matter? If so I'm impressed, given how often this topic was discussed in the aftermath of Q.

View Original PostSorrow wrote:I don't think it was a case of making Shinji act stupid to advance the plot so much as it was making him act stupid to show his desperation. Having said that, I still think it was rather shoddy writing.

If a person (Kaworu) has a plan to rectify your (Shinji's) ails then regardless of how desperate you are, it would be pure idiocy to disregard their obvious concern - for both your well being and their own confusion. Shinji had no real knowledge on the matter and, desperate or not, a person would tread more carefully and allow the one who's plan it was in the first place to call the shots and lead.


That's all an ideal scenario, but Shinji's mental state was not ideal at that moment, treading carefully would require him to stop and think logically about the whole situation, something he just couldn't do at the time. I've seen this "Kaworu was the man with the plan all along so Shinji should have listened to him" thrown around here a lot. Yeah, that would have been great, but once Kaworu told Shinji everything would go back to normal if he pulled those spears he created an obsession within Shinji, he planted in Shinji's mind the idea that he could save the world, that's why vague statements such as "I don't have a good feeling about this" and "stop" without giving Shinji any reason to weren't enough to dissuade him.

I've not found another scene in which I think Shinji is acting ridiculous given the situation. 3.0 gives me an awful vibe like it was written by a happy, successful man pretending to be depressed and understand people - or something.


On the contrary, I think it was a very good portrayal of what a depressed individual can do in a moment of desperation.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:34 pm

If Shinji and Kaworu had initiated their mission earlier in the film I would have been able to buy Shinji's impulsivity and disregard of Kaworu's multiple warnings. But the fact that their friendship is so strong by the time they actually commence the mission, it makes zero sense that Shinji would just ignore someone who is his only friend at this point and who's whole idea it was originally warning him to NOT DO IT.

I understand that he's desperate, but it's such a ridiculously stupid action given the amount of time the film put into establishing Shinji's trust in Kaworu.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby airman4 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:41 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:If Shinji and Kaworu had initiated their mission earlier in the film I would have been able to buy Shinji's impulsivity and disregard of Kaworu's multiple warnings. But the fact that their friendship is so strong by the time they actually commence the mission, it makes zero sense that Shinji would just ignore someone who is his only friend at this point and who's whole idea it was originally warning him to NOT DO IT.

I understand that he's desperate, but it's such a ridiculously stupid action given the amount of time the film put into establishing Shinji's trust in Kaworu.


Well it would have made zero sense if Shinji would have listened to him
Kaworu is not his father or somethin
And to finish stoping pulling means no restoration of the world , so going back to the same shit

and we all know what kind of "kid" Shinji is.

Asuka said it many times in the movie (especially when they fight in the end just before the tragedy )

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:44 pm

"I don't have a good feeling about this" begs the question "why?" and "stop" isn't vague at all. It's a warning; an order. Kaworu was panicked - would you expect him to explain it all to Shinji, thoroughly, as he went on towards the spears just in front of him or as basically as possible tell him why to stop?

Manically becoming obsessed to the point of idiocy would not be considered characteristic of a depressed person. Despondency, guilt and anxiety would be characteristic - almost a complete opposite. If you had said:
View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:On the contrary, I think it was a very good portrayal of what an individual can do in a moment of desperation.
then maybe--but not really--because desperation could change someone regardless of depression.
In EoE when NERV is under attack and Shinji has no motivation to do anything--even when at gunpoint--I think is an apt display of his depression, to the point of nihilism.

I understand this Shinji is not the same as the Shinji we're used to; because his situation is different. But he has never been particularly obsessive or un-thoughtful before and he had to be convinced by Kaworu to get involved in the plan in the first place - to blindly then throw oneself at the plan--that you needed to be convinced of--whilst holding no doubt or reserve would surely be stupid. No?
Last edited by Sorrow on Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:22 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:"I don't have a good feeling about this" begs the question "why?" and "stop" isn't vague at all. It's a warning, an order. Kaworu was panicked - would you expect him to explain it all to Shinji, thoroughly, as he went on towards the spears just in front of him or as basically as possible tell him why to stop?


I didn't expect any of that because I'm not even sure Kaworu knew what would happen if Shinji pulled the spears. I think having a bad feeling about it was actually his sole reason to tell Shinji to stop, he wasn't being vague on purpose, he really didn't know what would happen. Frankly, if he knew I think he would have said something such as "you'll start an impact" or "the world will end" and in my opinion that's the kind of thing that would get Shinji to stop, short of physically restraining him, because in Shinji's mind doing that will fix everything, and it will take more than shouting "stop" to convince him otherwise.

Manically becoming obsessed to the point of idiocy would not be considered characteristic of a depressed person.


If by "obsessed to the point of idiocy" you mean obsessed to the point where one's judgement of a given situation is compromised then I disagree with you.

Edit: To clear things up, depression alone isn't the cause of the obsession, but if a depressed person is given reason to think that all his problems can magically go away it's not unreasonable to think that said person would become obsessed and desperately go for it.

I understand this Shinji is not the same as the Shinji we're used to; because his situation is vastly different. But he has never been particularly obsessive or un-thoughtful before and he had to be convinced by Kaworu to get involved in the plan in the first place - to blindly then throw oneself at the plan--that you needed to be convinced of--whilst holding no doubt or reserve would surely be stupid. No?


The whole movie made a point of showing Shinji's descent to the bottom of the pit in an obvious effort to try to make it as clear as possible how desperate he was by the end of it all, Kaworu then comes in not simply to convince Shinji to go with the plan, he actually gives Shinji hope, hope of fixing everything he has broken and saving everyone, and he does a damn good job with it, that's why it's so hard, even for Kaworu, to convince him that going through with the plan wasn't a good idea after all, specially when he himself doesn't seem to know why Shinji shouldn't do it.

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:54 pm

View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:I didn't expect any of that because I'm not even sure Kaworu knew what would happen if Shinji pulled the spears. I think having a bad feeling about it was actually his sole reason to tell Shinji to stop, he wasn't being vague on purpose, he really didn't know what would happen.
His sole reason wasn't "a bad feeling"; it was because the spears were the same as each other; ergo not what he was expecting. He is thinking it over, to my recollection, and trying to deduce why that would be. It seems hinted at that he suspects betrayal by Gendo.

Kaworu is constantly a character who seems to be "in-the-know" when it comes to the rebuilds. He has an idea about what would happen if they were to pull/retrieve the two spears. By his reaction he also seems to have an inkling as to what might happen if they pull these two, same, spears instead.

Anyone, surely Shinji himself, could see that something was troubling Kaworu. He looked ill at one point--though I may be wrong--and so if the person who says "this will fix the world" says "this is not right, this is not how it should be" it would certainly tell us it will not have the desired outcome you were expecting.

Yes Shinji was desperate, but being stupid need not be a side effect. If he had broken down and displayed his desperation with questions and begging; I'd have bought it. I can't buy that someone, who had been cautious and doubting the entire film, would blindly declare "this is our hope", or something to that effect, whilst ignoring the one person who's plan it was, when they're clearly troubled and asking you to stop, without it seeming like bad, convenient, writing.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:22 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:His sole reason wasn't "a bad feeling"; it was because the spears were the same as each other; ergo not what he was expecting. He is thinking it over, to my recollection, and trying to deduce why that would be. It seems hinted at that he suspects betrayal by Gendo.

Kaworu is constantly a character who seems to be "in-the-know" when it comes to the rebuilds. He has an idea about what would happen if they were to pull/retrieve the two spears. By his reaction he also seems to have an inkling as to what might happen if they pull these two, same, spears instead.


You said it yourself, he sees the spears, has a bad feeling about it and tells Shinji to stop, then he starts to feel sick and, seemingly confused, starts to wonder what's going on, but it doesn't seem clear to him that fourth impact will start if Shinji pulls the spears, I like to think that if he knew he would have said something. All he seems to know is that something bad will happen.

Anyone, surely Shinji himself, could see that something was troubling Kaworu. He looked ill at one point--though I may be wrong--and so if the person who says "this will fix the world" says "this is not right, this is not how it should be" it would certainly tell us it will not have the desired outcome you were expecting.


To someone who is thinking clearly, yeah, but that's not the case with Shinji, and since Kaworu wasn't giving him any information on what would actually happen if the spears were pulled he just kept on believing they would fix everything, like he was led to believe.

Yes Shinji was desperate, but being stupid need not be a side effect. If he had broken down and displayed his desperation with questions and begging; I'd have bought it. I can't buy that someone, who had been cautious and doubting the entire film, would blindly declare "this is our hope", or something to that effect, whilst ignoring the one person who's plan it was, when they're clearly troubled and asking you to stop, without it seeming like bad, convenient, writing.


That's the thing, he isn't the one who declares it as their last hope, he is led to believe that, and he clings to that one hope because it's literally his last one, even the guy who gave him that hope in the first place couldn't easily convince him otherwise by that point because he was blind to everything else, that was his chance to fix it all. In the end it all comes down to how convincing Shinji's actions are to people, some claim it to be stupid in light of Kaworu's warnings, others consider it to be a likely scenario given how desperate Shinji was at the moment, I believe the latter.
Last edited by A.T. Fish on Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sachi » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:38 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:I understand this Shinji is not the same as the Shinji we're used to; because his situation is vastly different. But he has never been particularly obsessive or un-thoughtful before and he had to be convinced by Kaworu to get involved in the plan in the first place - to blindly then throw oneself at the plan--that you needed to be convinced of--whilst holding no doubt or reserve would surely be stupid. No?

I've brought this up before elsewhere, but I don't think I ever properly conveyed myself:

Shinji has been displayed as being unthoughtful and single-minded before within the Rebuild canon--not to the same extent that he is condemned to in 3.0, but it's still there. Particularly when he gets driven into to a highly emotional state, he enters a mindset similar to what a berserk Eva looks like and acts based off of impulse and instinct, not off of reasoning and logic. See the Shamshel incident wherein he disobeys a direct order to retreat from Misato, yet he chooses to charge the enemy instead in a blind rage.

3.0 Shinji is much of the same thing.
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Postby Sorrow » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:42 pm

View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:some claim it to be stupid in light of Kaworu's warnings, other consider it to be a likely scenario given how desperate Shinji was at the moment, I believe the latter.
You can't make it seem like it could be taken either way but you are in favour of the latter, as if to satisfy all views, when you so sneakily imply that your conclusion is logical and the other isn't.

If Shinji was so blindly convinced that pulling the spears would save or "fix" the world, regardless of Kaworu's warnings and obvious discomfort and confusion, did he not seem elated as fourth impact initiated and the everything looked to be going to hell? Surely he'd have accepted this as part of the fixing of the world taking place - instead, however, he's not so sure and even questioning....

Where was his questioning and doubt when Kaworu blatantly displayed his own? Convenient, bad writing. Kaworu need not state exactly what will happen when he had already made it apparent that it will not be what Shinji is expecting - or even wanting.

The writer(s?) could have shown Shinji's desperation and lack of straight thinking without making him appear to be an incompetent fool, with the mentality of a religious martyr, s'all 'm sayin'.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:53 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:You can't make it seem like it could be taken either way but you are in favour of the latter, as if to satisfy all views, when you so sneakily imply that your conclusion is logical and the other isn't.


I honestly wasn't trying to do that, I'm really just stating my opinion, which I believe is the minority opinion even, it's just that the discussion over this particular aspect of 3.0 has been going on for so long in this subforum that I don't believe the two sides will ever come to an understanding. Obviously I stand by my opinion but I also respect your right, and that of everyone else who agrees with you, to stand by yours.

If Shinji was so blindly convinced that pulling the spears, regardless of Kaworu's warnings and obvious discomfort and confusion, did he not seem elated as fourth impact initiated and the everything looked to be going to hell? Surely he'd have accepted this as part of the fixing of the world taking place - instead, however, he's not so sure and even questioning....


If you want proof that he actually believed he was saving the world then look at the cut that comes immediately after he pulls the spears, he has a smile on his face, the smile of someone who believes everything will be ok now.
Last edited by A.T. Fish on Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:04 am, edited 2 times in total.


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