Transformers: We Deserve Better Than Michael Bay

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Postby Ray » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:44 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What Tranny 4 achieved simultaneously was both American and Chinese Nationalism.
.


How is that even possible?
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:35 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:“T4” is already associated with the Terminator 4.


"TF4" is available and easier to write. Go with that.

And, given the context of the rest of the casting, you;re argument against PR fails immensely.


No, it doesn't. It took place in Hong Kong and involved no Chinese actors (apart from the three Jaeger pilots, whose only role was to job for the white guys, and who were never seen in HK).

They could have (and by all accounts would have otherwise) casted the entire film white. But then, context was never really your strong suit.


Context has always been my strong suit. The point isn't the Jaeger pilots, it's the damn setting. If the movie takes place in HK we should see more people from HK in the cast and background! This isn't rocket science. Even Bay figured this out, and he doesn't even give a shit.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:14 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Context has always been my strong suit. The point isn't the Jaeger pilots, it's the damn setting. If the movie takes place in HK we should see more people from HK in the cast and background! This isn't rocket science. Even Bay figured this out, and he doesn't even give a shit.

So, you mean to tell me that Kelvin Lum, Soo David Chum Ling, Randy Lee, Jung-Yul Kim, Kaelyn Wong, and all of those people in the Kaiju bunker, (all of which were in Hong Kong, BTW) were not Chinese actors? That’s what you’re saying, right? Or that you confused them as white people? I just don’t want to misunderstand you this time around either.

Wow, that's... That’s ignorant. Ignorant and terribly dismissive about the Chinese actors who were involved in the filming of PR. A grand total of two people in the Hong Kong scenes were white (one of which was only visiting) and you dismiss all of the Chinese actors in favor of the very little white casting in the scenes.

That’s not taking things in context, or, that's not taking things within the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed, which is what it means to take something within its context.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:29 am

Freaky, you're being an ass. I'm talking about people with significant roles, not extras. What the devil does this have to do with TF4, anyway?

Screw it, I'll make it relevant: TF4 involved multiple Chinese actors with speaking roles, many of them female, and did it in a way that didn't smack of tokenism. It didn't stick white folks in roles that ought to be filled with Asians, and it was representative. That says nothing whatsoever about the film's quality, just that the casting made sense given the locales involved. This should be bog standard in the film industry, but it isn't. So TF4 has that going for it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:51 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That says nothing whatsoever about the film's quality, just that the casting made sense given the locales involved.

By this argument, I wonder if that explains why all of the American leads in this film were white casted. Michael Bay even made an effort to remove Tyrese Gibson from the cast in this one.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:06 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:By this argument, I wonder if that explains why all of the American leads in this film were white casted. Michael Bay even made an effort to remove Tyrese Gibson from the cast in this one.


That might be because he's kind of an asshole and has had problems with Bay in all the previous films.

Or it could just be because all the U.S. military cast were removed from the story this time around. But I'm sure that's far too logical to be true!
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shamsiel-kun » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:05 am

So I read several pages of back-and-forth on why Michael Bay is a terrible director and why his movies suck/don't suck, and why Transformers doesn't deserve him.

I don't think Michael Bay is the problem. Rather more, he is a symptom of the underlying problem:

That the Transformers fandom is a terrible fandom that lets itself be milked to the max by the right holders.

We are talking about a fandom that will often scoop up anything just because it has the "Transformers"-label on it, no matter how terrible, shallow, or overpriced the product is. On any Transformer forum out there you will see it. People post how they think a certain toy is absolute horsepoo, yet at the same time rave about how they still buy products because it is Transformers. Hasbro has stopped trying to stop producers of bootleg ("third-party") Transformers toys once they noticed that fans would spend hundreds of dollars on them, no matter how crappy the toy. Now people start complaining Hasbro lowered their own quality-control to bootleg-level, yet they still continue buying their products. No matter how awful a toy design is, even if the prototype looks like a simplified, show-inaccurate, plastic toy with awful hollow bits and bad paint applications, people will buy it, write raving reviews that for some reason either completely ignore the bad points or mention them (including breakages) but say it's not important. It's completely lunatic. Like a parody of consumerism run mad. I bet if I were to take a turd and shape it into an Autobot symbol, I could sell it to the average Transfan... :facepalm:

I have been part of that fandom, when Beast Wars was still on (Best. TF. Show. Ever, incidentally). Back then, people complained about the products too, and Hasbro started noticing that fans were interested in accurate character representations and we got some really great stuff. But when we went back to vehicles, servicing the "Trukk. Not Monkey"-crowd, the quality started to go south while the rabidity of the fandom went up to 9000. Then the movies came along, and everything started to go completely to hell with the influx of more mindless one-time-Transfan drones. I don't think I've seen much intelligent discussion on a TF board since quite a bit of time. Hasbro markets the shit out of Transformers, the fans scoop everything up in a manner similar to how a coke addict snorts his daily dose of cocaine, and people like Michael Bay enjoy their current pot of gold. And they're right to do so. Easy money. :mwahaha:

TL; DR-version: I don't like current Transformers products (excluding Takara's Masterpiece line) and think the fandom as a whole sucks.
Last edited by Shamsiel-kun on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Defectron » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:14 pm

View Original PostShamsiel-kun wrote:So I read several pages of back-and-forth on why Michael Bay is a terrible director and why his movies suck/don't suck, and why Transformers doesn't deserve him.

I don't think Michael Bay is the problem. Rather more, he is a symptom of the underlying problem:

That the Transformers fandom is a terrible fandom that lets itself be milked to the max by the right holders.

We are talking about a fandom that will often scoop up anything just because it has the "Transformers"-label on it, no matter how terrible, shallow, or overpriced the product is. On any Transformer forum out there you will see it. People post how they think <insert> is absolute horsepoo, yet at the same time rave about how they still buy <product> because it is Transformers. Hasbro has stopped trying to stop producers of bootleg ("third-party") Transformers toys once they noticed that fans would spend hundreds of dollars on them, no matter how crappy the toy. Now people start complaining Hasbro lowered their own quality-control to bootleg-level, yet they still continue buying their products. No matter how awful a toy design is, even if the prototype looks like a simplified, show-inaccurate, plastic toy with awful hollow bits and bad paint applications, people will buy it, write raving reviews that for some reason either completely ignore the bad points or mention them (including breakages) but say it's not important. It's completely lunatic. Like a parody of consumerism run mad. I bet if I were to take a turd and shape it into an Autobot symbol, I could sell it to the average Transfan... :facepalm:

I have been part of that fandom, when Beast Wars was still on (Best. TF. Show. Ever, incidentally). Back then, people complained about the products too, and Hasbro started noticing that fans were interested in accurate character representations and we got some really great stuff. But when we went back to vehicles, servicing the "Trukk. Not Monkey"-crowd, the quality started to go south while the rabidity of the fandom went up to 9000. Then the movies came along, and everything started to go completely to hell with the influx of more mindless one-time-Transfan drones. I don't think I've seen much intelligent discussion on a TF board since quite a bit of time. Hasbro markets the shit out of Transformers, the fans scoop everything up in a manner similar to how a coke addict snorts his daily dose of cocaine, and people like Michael Bay enjoy their current pot of gold. And they're right to do so. Easy money. :mwahaha:

TL; DR-version: I don't like current Transformers products (excluding Takara's Masterpiece line) and think the fandom as a whole sucks.


Very much this! I liked the original series because of how over the top goofy it was, never saw beastwars so I can't really judge that. But really all the other transformers incarnations I have seen including the bay films have pretty much been varying degrees of bad. I blame the popularity on how toetic the series is, one thing I noticed is that if something is toyetic, it will be successful regardless of how terrible the franchise is. Some good examples of this aside from transformers is power rangers and ninjago. Both of those were imo worst then most incarnations of transformers with the possible exception of armada, but they were also both wildly successful. The thing all three of those franchises has in common is they have a large cool toy market, they why they are successful and will never go away regardless of how bad they get.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:42 pm

View Original PostShamsiel-kun wrote:That the Transformers fandom is a terrible fandom that lets itself be milked to the max by the right holders.


Pretty much, yeah. I stick to collecting g1, though I have to admit some of those masterpiece figs are tempting. Maybe someday.

Haven't seen any of these movies past the first so I'll stay out of that discussion, but Bags and Freaky should probably take a breather on the issue before things get heated.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:47 pm

I'm out at this point, though I will note that the Alternators line is worth the investment. Pity there's no good Optimus, though.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shamsiel-kun » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:29 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I'm out at this point, though I will note that the Alternators line is worth the investment. Pity there's no good Optimus, though.


The Japanese counterpart (Binaltech) to Alternators is even better, with diecast and better quality. IIRC, the first Transformers Masterpiece Convoy/Optimus Prime is pretty much in scale with them.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:45 pm

I will have to check that out, then.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Ray » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:06 pm

(Probably) Last post from me, but I want to share this.

Check this out! You don't even need to see the movie now!

Cinemasins everything wrong with T4 Part 1:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c97NAlvu3n0

And Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHZHSt1CSgo

They had to make two videos due to how long this movie is.

Edit: Also. damn! that's a lot of explosions!

Here's the thing with explosions in action movies bay, Less is more! Explosions are the frosting, NOT the cake!
Last edited by Ray on Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:40 pm

A hero of Transformers calls everyone in China a “Fortune Cookie” while white English-speaking white people save their ass. No racism to see here.

EDIT: Wait, I’m sorry. It’s racism “done right.” That’s what it is.

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Postby Ray » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:53 pm

Also, first time I saw the Samurai Transformer. . .with a yellow face.

Just. . .Why?
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:46 pm

For the same reason why Skids and Mud Flaps just exist in the way they do TForm 3.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:45 pm

You guys haven't been reading the thread very carefully, have you? This has been covered like three times now. Bay didn't do anything to make Drift any more of a racial stereotype than he already was. He's been like that since his inception.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:22 pm

Michael Bay will save filmmaking.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:50 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You guys haven't been reading the thread very carefully, have you? This has been covered like three times now. Bay didn't do anything to make Drift any more of a racial stereotype than he already was. He's been like that since his inception.

Racism is still racism, even of it’s inherited racism. If Micheal Bay isn’t interested in working to move beyond out-dated and offensive racist aesthetics in his movie then, well, he’s still utilizing out-dated and offensive racist aesthetics. Which means that he’s still producing and directing a racist work.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:59 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Racism is still racism, even of it’s inherited racism. If Micheal Bay isn’t interested in working to move beyond out-dated and offensive racist aesthetics in his movie then, well, he’s still utilizing out-dated and offensive racist aesthetics. Which means that he’s still producing and directing a racist work.


Oh Christ, get over it already. Your confirmation bias couldn't be more obvious.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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