Does FINAL even have a chance?

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Postby GoatJesus » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:17 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Weren't you the same guy who trashed Anno and the Rebuilds as failures this time a year ago in a series of (very well edited BTW) youtube videos?

Have you changed your opinion or what?


Hey! Thanks for the compliment on the editing! And yep! I was that guy. My stance has shifted a bit. A lot can happen over a year of thought and learning about storytelling. I think FINAL has a chance. I still think 3.0 is fundamentally a bad film, but it least it shows us that Anno's still willing to take risks. I'm uneasy, because I think it's going to be difficult to do it--but I think it's possible.

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Postby thezeppo1138 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:24 pm

View Original PostGoatJesus wrote:Hey! Thanks for the compliment on the editing! And yep! I was that guy. My stance has shifted a bit. A lot can happen over a year of thought and learning about storytelling. I think FINAL has a chance. I still think 3.0 is fundamentally a bad film, but it least it shows us that Anno's still willing to take risks. I'm uneasy, because I think it's going to be difficult to do it--but I think it's possible.


Nice response. I respect that. Might not agree on everything, but like your vids all the same. Nice work.

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Postby GoatJesus » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:28 pm

View Original Postthezeppo1138 wrote:Nice response. I respect that. Might not agree on everything, but like your vids all the same. Nice work.


That's fine! People are different. We may not all agree, but we can at least be reasonable. I'd like to think anyway... And thank you for the compliment! I greatly appreciate that!

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:25 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Weren't you the same guy who trashed Anno and the Rebuilds as failures this time a year ago in a series of (very well edited BTW) youtube videos?

Have you changed your opinion or what?

Everyone's welcome to join the discussion, share or change their opinions, and generally chat on the forum. You'd don't have to like Rebuild or even Eva to post here (but it helps). And with that, a belated welcome to GoatJesus, and now back to the topic.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:43 pm

View Original Postthezeppo1138 wrote:Yeah, I've seen articles that claim pre-production started as early as 2002. Or at least the seeds of Rebuild.


Still can't find the source (EvaMonkey posted it once), but at a 2003 or 2004 convention, Tsuramaki mentioned how Anno wanted to work on more Eva.
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Postby thezeppo1138 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:05 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Still can't find the source (EvaMonkey posted it once), but at a 2003 or 2004 convention, Tsuramaki mentioned how Anno wanted to work on more Eva.

Yeah, I can't find the articles anymore either. He didn't start Khara til 2006 if I remember, but he had to have been already been working on it cause there is no way it only took a year to put out 1.0. That would be impressive.

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Postby LightDragonman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:29 pm

I believe he said that there hasn't really been another anime newer than Eva, so that's one of the reasons he decided to return to it. I don't exactly agree with that sentiment, but hey, it is still highly influential.

Once again though, I'm not quite sure how "new" Eva still is, especially after seeing so many shows expand on or refute it (again, Gurren Lagann and Madoka Magica, which I actually think are a bit better than it). It'll be interesting to see what Anno has to impart to us through FINAL, if he really is "Rebuilding" the saga.
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Postby thezeppo1138 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:43 pm

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:I believe he said that there hasn't really been another anime newer than Eva, so that's one of the reasons he decided to return to it. I don't exactly agree with that sentiment, but hey, it is still highly influential.
Once again though, I'm not quite sure how "new" Eva still is, especially after seeing so many shows expand on or refute it (again, Gurren Lagann and Madoka Magica, which I actually think are a bit better than it). It'll be interesting to see what Anno has to impart to us through FINAL, if he really is "Rebuilding" the saga.

I hear ya. I think he's just being cocky to a degree and saying no one has changed the game as strongly as Eva since Eva came out. Which I somewhat agree with, only because Eva is like my Star Wars of anime. Nothing to me has beat the original series for me personally and I don't ever see it being knocked of it's pedastal for me. The original Star Wars movies are the same for me, they have been and will forever be my favorite films. I don't know what he's trying to accomplish now, but what the hey, at least it's entertaining.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:20 pm

Well, when the ENTIRE ANIME INDUSTRY is suddenly following suit of you Eva show, yeah it's the newest thing ever. (The one exception would be Cowboy Bebop, but that wasnt nearly as much of a game changer as Eva was.)

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Postby airman4 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:08 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Well, when the ENTIRE ANIME INDUSTRY is suddenly following suit of you Eva show, yeah it's the newest thing ever. (The one exception would be Cowboy Bebop, but that wasnt nearly as much of a game changer as Eva was.)


Some combo breaker shit industry

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Madoka(sorry nanoha , thanks to utena/eva for the blueprint )




SnK ?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:52 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Well, when the ENTIRE ANIME INDUSTRY is suddenly following suit of you Eva show, yeah it's the newest thing ever. (The one exception would be Cowboy Bebop, but that wasnt nearly as much of a game changer as Eva was.)


I believe the four "game changers" of the anime world were, and still are - Uchuu Senkan Yamato, Gundam, Macross, and Evangelion. A "shitenno", if you will. Shows like Tetsuwan Atom started things off and were classics, but they didn't wreck the established order simply because they established the order in the first place.

Bebop was fantastic, but in spite of being a colossal hit in Japan and abroad it simply did not have the material to shake up the genre like Evangelion. Other shows that were big hits abroad but failures in Japan (Escaflowne is a perfect example) suffered not because they were bad, but because they did nothing to pick apart established tropes the way Evangelion did.

Heck, NGE's closest equivalent is Revolutionary Girl Utena, a show that has the kind of relationships and character interactions that NGE might have had had it been extended to 39 episodes instead of 26. Even Utena's impact was localized more to the Shoujo genre than to anime in general because Evangelion had already struck. Most anime that have been produced since 1995 have been under Evangelion's shadow in one way or another, and there's really not much of a way to ignore 3.0 or Final and the changes that Anno intends to bring.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:18 pm

I think it people are looking for Final to be a safe, Marvel-esque Dot the I's & cross the T's narrative conclusion to Rebuild; a film that fills in the missing 14 years & gives ALL characters their own fully developed arch & special moments to shine then No. Final Does (Not) Stand a Chance.

BUT - if people are open to playing around with what Anno is working with. To accept that fan-favorite characters like Ritsuko are regulated to being mere secondary characters who exist to get across exposition or that new characters like Mari simply play a role in the narrative & don't ever usurp what we have come to expect & to also accept that superficial elements to Evangelion are not ever going to have an answer - like what happened in the world over those missing 14 years - then I feel Final Does Stand A Chance.

Where's that potentially troll-bait 15-to-30 second trailer again? I gotta wait how long till September 5th?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:19 pm

Final has a chance provided we get this:

Click for SSD-brand silliness  SPOILER: Show
Image


:kaworusparkle:

But seriously, I think Gendo'sPapa has the right of it. If people stay open to Final (assuming they have with the rest of the New Theatrical Edition series), then it should be interesting and enjoyable.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:08 pm

View Original PostGoatJesus wrote:As of now, the Rebuild seems to definitely assume you've seen the original and at least already care for Asuka. That's not really a good thing in my opinion.
I see what you're getting at, but I'm just going to admit to some wry amusement at this point, since it seemed that a good chunk of the Ha-hate around here was because Sohryu wasn't in the movie.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:14 pm

I have an open mind but not so open my mind falls out. I think that much of the effusive you-plebians-don't-get-it praise for Q might be a case of the emperor's fabulous new clothes, which might itself be deliberate.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:15 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I see what you're getting at, but I'm just going to admit to some wry amusement at this point, since it seemed that a good chunk of the Ha-hate around here was because Sohryu wasn't in the movie.


Also, it seems bizarre to claim that assuming we give a shit about Asuka is a bad idea, since she and Shinji were the main selling points of the original series. I mean, srsly, where have you been for the last fifteen years?

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I have an open mind but not so open my mind falls out. I think that much of the effusive you-plebians-don't-get-it praise for Q might be a case of the emperor's fabulous new clothes, which might itself be deliberate.


It's a fair point, but I think a lot of the critics really don't get it. Which doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with Q, there's plenty, but even so I think most of the critics bitch about stuff that doesn't really matter.
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Postby LightDragonman » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:02 pm

^ For me personally, Asuka is actually one of my least favorite characters in the entire series (is that blasphemous to say around these here parts?). Heck, I never really even found her relationship with Shinji all that interesting in the original series, and the fact that it was one of the driving forces there didn't help matters. I get why it was important from a thematic standpoint, I just didn't think it was all the good from a narrative standpoint, if that makes sense.

With Rebuild, the main relationship seems to have shifted from her and Shinji to Rei and Shinji, as those two have been essentially the driving force behind the whole saga. This could explain why her character is less focused on. Heck, her character seems to be a lot stronger mentally now that she doesn't have him as her main "other", so to speak. Indeed, her grabbing Shinji's hand at the end of 3.33 feels like a dark inversion of the whole hand-holding motif that was so heart-warming to see at the end of 1.11 and 2.22.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:27 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Final has a chance provided we get this:

Click for SSD-brand silliness  SPOILER: Show



Mwahahahaha! After this, she needs to channel Juri Arisugawa from Utena and get into a sword duel with Gendo! :duel:

All that remains is for Shinji to break down in an elevator while being told to go "deeper, deeper" before a pink-haired Kunihiko Ikuhara tells him "Understood. Your only choice is to revolutionize the world. The path you must take has been prepared for you." And then, we will witness Anno's shirt being blown open dramatically in the wind while he sits on a pink phallic car and shouts "I will show you the end of the world!" To those of you who're wondering what in the galaxy I'm talking about, watch Revolutionary Girl Utena, Evangelion's shoujo twin.

Jokes aside, it's quite likely that Anno will pull off something highly unexpected this time around, and going by what he's already done in Episodes 25 and 26 and EoE, something surreal is very likely and any "neat" happy ending is pretty much out of the question.
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Postby xanderkh » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:39 pm

^

Well, maybe we shouldn't rule out a possible "Happy Ending". I mean, what's more unexpected from Anno then having a genuine happy ending? Maybe not with sunshine and rainbows, but maybe an ending that will at least leave you with the feeling that "everything is going to turn out better." :)

The way I see it, Rebuild's progression could be interpreted synonymous with Anno's life, with Rebuild Q being akin to his low point with EoE...and what happened after EoE? He's renowned as one of the best Directors of Animation, rich as Ted Turner, and even happily married, all because he kept going regardless. And hopefully, since Anno has mellowed out, that should reflect that.

Cause Optimism isn't the same as being naive, and Cynicism and bitterness is not the same as experience and wisdom. :)
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:14 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Also, it seems bizarre to claim that assuming we give a shit about Asuka is a bad idea, since she and Shinji were the main selling points of the original series.

If we’re gonna discuss “selling points” then we have to readily admit there was a lot more promotional material featuring Shinji sharing his image with Rei or Misato than there ever was with Shinji sharing his image with Asuka, especially given that Rei and Misato are in more episodes, introduced earlier, have more screen time, and affect the plot much, much more than Soryu ever did.

This isn’t to say that both filmmakers and audience members didn't care immensely about Shinji and Asuka, otherwise Anno wouldn’t have dedicated the very last minutes of The End of Evangelion to their interactions. And Rei vs. Asuka Waifu Battles are most certainly a thing amongst fans of the show. But when it comes to the show selling itself, they tend to either features Asuka separately, or have her tucked off to the side or at the bottom of a movie poster somewhere. (And these are all not including the times she shares her image with Rei in official promotional material, for various reasons.)

So in actuality, Asuka’s exclusive relationship with Shinji wasn’t used as a selling point to Eva as often as Rei or Misato were.

In that context, is seems rather natural for Asuka to take a lower tier in the relationship factor than Rei or Misato in the remade films, considering that she technically was for most of NGE. (Despite living with Shinji, Rei and Shinji still seem to take greater interest in one another in the show, and not entirely for reasons regarding romance or libido.)


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