Superhero Films & TV

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Bagheera » Fri May 05, 2017 1:43 am

View Original PostRay wrote:http://batman-news.com/2017/05/05/wonder-woman-protects-steve-trevor-in-first-clip-from-the-movie/

New clip from Wonder Woman released online. Thoughts? Is there anyone here who can actually be optimistic about a DC movie for once?


Ray, I've been optimistic about WW since day one. Check the thread, it's the supers project I'm looking forward to more than anything.
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri May 05, 2017 5:40 am

That was a good clip, I guess. I am optimizing towards the movie itself, but for whatever reason WB hasn't been promoting it as much as their other DC movies. Many are trying to read that lack of promotion as also a lack of interest, but honestly the lack of trailers might be a better sign for this movie. I mean, given how many trailers were released for Suicide Squad before it was revealed to be an ungodly mess, I wonder if WB was constantly releasing trailers in an ongoing attempt to try to salvage the movie during its edit, treating every new trailer as though it were a mini test-screening to gauge audience's relations in order to decide what the finished product needs to look like. There's also the feeling like the studio was trying to compensate for something when it came to SS. Suicide Squad was oversold to us because the studio knew it had a disappointment on its hands, so it sold the movie hard and fast, getting as many viewers in seats as possible on opening day because they knew that the word-of-mouth of the film wasn't going to do it any favors. For better or for worse, the studio isn't as concerned with the performance of Wonder Woman, so it's getting "normal movie promotion" treatment.
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Ray » Fri May 05, 2017 7:15 pm

^There's no honor in kicking a Cinematic Universe while it's down.

In more positive news. I just saw Guardians Volume 2.

Had a good time. Though I will admit it got a bit too schmaltzy and cheesy at points.

Oh and Marvel finally fixed its villain problem. The one they got for this movie more than makes up for the generic vanilla presence of other villains we had so far.

Oh and there is actually some evidence that we may be getting the Fantastic Four in the Mcu sooner rather than later.

SPOILER: Show
The Watcher shows up although he's more of a joke Cameo than an actual serious presence.



And a significant character actually died! Yes finally a death in the Marvel Cinematic Universe that actually matters!
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Chuckman » Sat May 06, 2017 1:56 am

I just got back from a 11 pm show. Lots of energy in the audience, lots of laughter.

GotG is the kind of movie we need more of, a melodramatic adventure that takes the time to build the characters and earn its payoffs and take creative risks.

I never thought I'd see
SPOILER: Show
Ego the Fucking Living Planet on screen.


It is what it is without ponderous self-importance. So many superhero writers and directors feel the need to stamp their own mark on a franchise or give it some overwrought meaning and lecture the audience as if they need to apologize for making a superhero movie.

GotG V2 might edge out IM3 as my favorite Marvel movie. It has heart and it doesn't insist upon itself.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Dr. Nick » Sat May 06, 2017 7:24 am

Shankar's The Robot sequel delayed to January 2018. The special effects are giving the Kollywood production a hard time, which is not really surprising considering this is supposed to be a bigger and crazier sequel to a film that was already billed as "the biggest spectacle ever" (and that was only a slight exaggeration).

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Ray » Sat May 06, 2017 4:33 pm

Mike Giacchino began scoring Incredible 2. We are in the home stretch people.

http://screenrant.com/incredibles-2-mic ... rts-score/
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat May 06, 2017 4:38 pm

I am also super optimistic towards the WW movie. So far, it looks like the film is steering clear of of the half-baked "Realism" trope of its predecessors, and that really excites me.

I just hope they can pull it off. A change from forced, flat-line grim dark story arcs can be good, but only if the alternative arc isn't also forced or flat-line. WW's director has some decent films under her belt, so I think this movie is in competent hands.
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Ray » Sat May 06, 2017 7:08 pm

^Chuckman, Freaky. Please stop implying that trying to make a superhero story more nuanced than just 'good guy punching out bad guy' is a fruitless endeavor.

We already have a lighthearted Superhero-Universe. Plenty of DC's characters can work with some shades of grey thrown in, there's no reason a Darker COmic Book Movie-verse can't exist. But because of the (IMO VERY unfair and reactionary) Backlash to BVS, we're never going to get that. At least not outside of Marvels Netflix series.

Also, Wonder Woman was in the can, finished production, BEFORE the Geoff Johns "Hope and optimism" course correction. Make no mistake, Wondy is going to be a darker movie, maybe not BVS or Man Of Steel dark. But it takes place during the big morally grey clusterfuck known as WWI. where there were no good guys fighting a noble cause against genocidal madmen like in WW2. How do you make a 'WE'RE HAVING FUN!" movie out of the most destructive, morally nebulous conflict in human history until 'Nam? You can't!

Furthermore Given where her character is in BVS which this is in part a prequel to, we know how it's going to end. She's going to witness someone she loves dying, or see the inherent pointlessness of mans world and go back to no-boys allowed Island bitter and disgusted at humanities inhumanity to itself.

And then all that potential drama/thematic overtones is going to be thrown out the window in Justice League. to course-correct something that doesn't necessarily need to be.
Last edited by Ray on Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Chuckman » Sat May 06, 2017 7:17 pm

I'm not going to make any judgement on Wonder Woman's character in this unreleased movie because her characterization in BVS could alternately be described as: "Oh, I'm not Catwoman! I should stop acting like her and go punch the monster."

I don't want a dark superhero universe for the sake of it and I'd rather the movies be made by people that care about them and believe in them, not the guys that think Watchmen is all comics, Batman should be raped in prison, and made a Batman blockbuster that ends with an extended gag illustrating that yes, the audience is stupid enough to swallow a scene from the Adam West Batman as an ending if you dress it up in sad Hans Zimmer acoustic gibberrish and black rubber.

I'm not going to continue to engage with you on this any further. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind.

P.S. if you want to see a heavy nuanced superhero movie go watch Logan, Winter Soldier, or Iron Man 3. Superhero movies can be deep when they're not tripping all over themselves to prove they're not for kids raaaaaar.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Bagheera » Sat May 06, 2017 11:02 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:^Chuckman, Freaky. Please stop implying that trying to make a superhero story more nuanced than just 'good guy punching out bad guy' is a fruitless endeavor.


Will you please stop being so damn patronizing about this? Multiple people have explained to you multiple times WITH EXAMPLES that the issue was never one of nuance or depth or whatever else you're going on about so much as the fact that MOS/BVS/SS did what they were trying to do badly. The issue is not that they are dark films, but that they are badly made dark films. If the films were well made, as was the case with The Dark Knight or Deadpool or Logan, none of us would have objected to them.

It is not about tone, it never has been. It's about quality.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby movieartman » Sat May 06, 2017 11:16 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:So far, it looks like the film is steering clear of of the half-baked "Realism" trope of its predecessors

Absolutely no idea what gave you that notion, they seem to be handling the WW1 aspect completely realistically, especially compared to the cheap armor & laser gun using Nazis of Cap TFA (which I liked mind you, but I appreciate the authentic feel this has more so)

View Original PostChuckman wrote:It is what it is without ponderous self-importance. So many superhero writers and directors feel the need to stamp their own mark on a franchise or give it some overwrought meaning and lecture the audience as if they need to apologize for making a superhero movie.

Except having strong underpinnings and "lecturing" has fuck all to do with disdain for Superheroes. Hundreds of comics have messages to them about society & humanity, many of them not positive or uplifting.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:P.S. if you want to see a heavy nuanced superhero movie go watch Logan, Winter Soldier, or Iron Man 3. Superhero movies can be deep when they're not tripping all over themselves to prove they're not for kids raaaaaar.

Haven't seen Logan but from what I have heard it did the "not for kids" thing a million times harder then anything in Mos/Bvs/SS.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Will you please stop being such a patronizing ass about this? Multiple people have explained to you multiple times WITH EXAMPLES that the issue was never one of nuance or depth or whatever else you're going on about so much as the fact that MOS/BVS/SS did what they were trying to do badly. The issue is not that they are dark films, but that they are badly made dark films. If the films were well made, as was the case with The Dark Knight or Deadpool or Logan, none of us would have objected to them.

It is not about tone, it never has been. It's about quality.

Except Cuckman hates on the Nolan films too for being dark, he just did so again over in the James Bond thread.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Chuckman » Sat May 06, 2017 11:28 pm

I hate TDKR. I don't think Nolan wanted to make it and the whole movie is a subtle, yet unkind parody of Batman and Batman fans as an insult to repay the demand for a pointless third movie that has nothing to add to what TDK already said.

I like TDK. It consider it the second best Batman film, behind Batman Returns.

The Begins and TDK aren't dark movies.

The bloody violence in Logan served the plot and character development. It was there for a reason.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Bagheera » Sat May 06, 2017 11:53 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Absolutely no idea what gave you that notion, they seem to be handling the WW1 aspect completely realistically, especially compared to the cheap armor & laser gun using Nazis of Cap TFA (which I liked mind you, but I appreciate the authentic feel this has more so)


Did you watch that video? If you didn't, you should. It's actually a very good explanation of why WW's "realism" and that of MoS/BvS are not the same thing at all.

Except having strong underpinnings and "lecturing" has fuck all to do with disdain for Superheroes. Hundreds of comics have messages to them about society & humanity, many of them not positive or uplifting.


And when they're overwrought we say they suck. It's not a matter of what is being done, but how.

Haven't seen Logan but from what I have heard it did the "not for kids" thing a million times harder then anything in Mos/Bvs/SS.


You should watch Logan. It will change your perspective on everything we're talking about in this thread.

Except Cuckman hates on the Nolan films too for being dark, he just did so again over in the James Bond thread.


"Cuckman"? Really?

And he hates TDKR, not the other Nolan films. Which makes sense, since TDKR was pretty shitty while the other two were decent (BB) and awesome (TDK).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Ray » Sun May 07, 2017 12:08 am

@movieartman

I really hope that was a typo.

Disagreement is one thing, but disagreeing with someone over a creative direction of a move or franchise is no excuse for name-calling.
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Chuckman » Sun May 07, 2017 12:23 am

I'm sure that's all it was. I have a friend who calls me "Chick" by accident on a regular basis

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby movieartman » Sun May 07, 2017 12:47 am

View Original PostRay wrote:@movieartman

I really hope that was a typo.

Disagreement is one thing, but disagreeing with someone over a creative direction of a move or franchise is no excuse for name-calling.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I'm sure that's all it was. I have a friend who calls me "Chick" by accident on a regular basis

I re-read my post 3 times, and have NO idea what word you guys are referring to. No I absolutely did not intend any personal insult.

Edit - Sorry, now it see it "cuckman", sorry, my Dyslexia fucking with me.



View Original PostChuckman wrote:I like TDK. It consider it the second best Batman film, behind Batman Returns.

The Begins and TDK aren't dark movies.

When I say dark in regards to the DCEU I just mean played straight and completely serious.
NGE for example is genuinely dark, I don't think the Nolan films or the DCEU films qualify as such at all.

I have been meaning to re watch Returns. I think I have only watched it once. Was meh about it.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The bloody violence in Logan served the plot and character development. It was there for a reason.

The dourness present in Bvs (not really present in Mos IMO) served to further flesh out a X-Men type world that fears these beings and wears down on a humanized flawed Superman's emotional durability. That is just as valid a storytelling reason.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Did you watch that video? If you didn't, you should. It's actually a very good explanation of why WW's "realism" and that of MoS/BvS are not the same thing at all.

I wasn't talking about tonal realism, I was talking about how authentic the setting & look of the film is. And that there isn't anything outlandish like again in the Mcu version of WW2.

I did watch the video and...
SPOILER: Show
1.) The DCEU wasn't "truckloads of misery" in tone to me, not even remotely.
2.) "the thing is in fiction, the only consequences that exist are then one you want to exist"
Yes and I want the collateral damage that drives in how grave the stakes are, I want villains that are genuinely menacing, I want heroes that will make hard choices & sacrifices for the greater good.
3.) She claimed Watchmen was a source of "gratuitous violence" which it wasn't hence why people talk shit about Zach using slow mo & exaggerated blood & violence in his adaption of it.
4.) She stated the grim darkness working in Watchmen as he sprinkled in tiny hopeful/inspiring things throughout that Manhattan & Ozymandias couldn't see.
And I see the exact same types of things in Mos/Bvs. (Perry, Lombard willing to die to try & save Jenny, Clark can't stop himself from trying to save people in immediate danger despite his overwhelming fears of how his existence would effect the world, him taking the nuke to the face without hesitation, among others)
5.) He doesn't need to have a reason to save people, it's simply the right thing to do... period. AND THEN in her following example of how to do the dark world scenario better, her variation of Superman's altruism has no more reason behind it then the Dceu gave him to she claims it's simply who he is.
6.) "No regard for casualties" Then why did he take Doomsday into space the 1st time he got thrown into a building?
7.) She claims he stops being Superman because people became slightly more salty then normal to him, blowing up a senate full of fucking people is alot more serious then being "salty" & she claims he returned for Lois, no he was returning anyway, hence why he was already in Metropolis when Lex threw her.
8.) "He doesn't seem to care when buildings fall on other people" Only 1 building fell while he was in Metropolis in Mos & he propelled himself out of the building, tried to pause in flight and went into a tumble & crashed into the parking garage, as soon as he emerged Zod was standing before him, there was no point where he could have tried to do anything about the building falling. In Bvs, see 6.
9.) "Abruptly deciding to acknowledge reality can be effectively jarring" hence why Mos/Bvs were grounded all the way through.

She is another Dceu hater that has to lie about the films to make a point.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Ray » Sun May 07, 2017 1:12 am

She's not lying, or at least not being outright intentionally disingenuous. I do generally agree with most of your other points tho. I'll give them a more fleshed out nuanced response later.
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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby movieartman » Sun May 07, 2017 1:26 am

View Original PostRay wrote:She's not lying, or at least not being outright intentionally disingenuous.

Your probably right, I just have seen so many countless people claim things that just flat out did not occur in the films it's utterly baffling, even more so when they sat down to do a in depth argument such as this.

1 point I slightly agreed with her on is that she said upping the stakes is hard if everything is bad all the time, which is true, and for all my defense of Bvs, I do think Clark needed some happy scenes before the senate bombing. Him, Lois & Martha having diner together would have been nice & added to the ladies interaction at the end.
And I do appreciate her acknowledging that Pa told Clark not to reveal himself as the world & Clark were not ready instead of the usual claims of him being a suicidal sociopath or dying for a dog.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Chuckman » Sun May 07, 2017 12:12 pm

I think MoS would have been a vastly better film with no central villain at all. The villain should have been the redaction of Earth to Clark choosing to reveal himself as Superman. Fits with how I keep saying that you have to give him a problem that he can't punch away.

The biggest problem with the DCCU as a whole is that it's rushed. There's about six movies worth of material in the two main ones (not counting Suicide Squad)

They all feel so badly paced and over compressed because they're cramming all of this stuff into itself.

Also, killing Kevin Costner Dad is a cheap shot at the audience and a waste of an excellent casting decision.

All of these movies feel like first drafts. If a good writer turned out a few more drafts they'd have been magnificent.

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Re: Superhero Films & TV

Postby Bagheera » Sun May 07, 2017 12:20 pm

If they had made the Doomsday sequence a separate movie that would have been mindblowingly awesome. Give it a setup that makes sense, let Doomsday rampage around for a bit . . . yeah, that would have been pretty cool.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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