Issues With Runtime: How Long Does Final NEED to be?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:50 pm

View Original PostPen-Pen02 wrote:For this reason, fans will have to speculate about them for a long, long time.

Fanfic is good for this, I guess, though there's less continuing on from Q than I might have expected. Anyway, mine addresses (or will address) well over half of your list of points :)
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Postby Pen-Pen02 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:03 pm

Yeah... What would become of fans without fanfics XD? Well, I don't know how Anno could solve all this, but for this moment a hard battle between Eva 08+Eva 02 and Nerv is programmed (unless it'll be fake, like the last time). My hope to see Gendo and Fuyu with their donkey friend is over :facepalm:
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Postby Ray » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:53 pm

View Original PostPen-Pen02 wrote:My hope to see Gendo and Fuyu with their donkey friend is over :facepalm:


As is my hope to find out about the Baby Rei Clones.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:28 am

View Original PostRay wrote:As is my hope to find out about the Baby Rei Clones.

All you need to know is that Gendo kept their heads.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:30 am

And he did things to them.

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Postby Grub » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:27 pm

I think it should be longer than the others by quite a bit. It needs to be epic in length to deal with all the stuff it didn't even touch in 3.0. Shinji's journey alone would almost require more time than normal. The real trick will be filling it with dramatic content, and not just exposition.
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Postby Ray » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:45 pm

View Original PostGrub wrote: The real trick will be filling it with dramatic content, and not just exposition.


Exactly! This concern is why I started this thread in the first place!
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:56 pm

Exposition can be dealt with remarkably quickly, though; there's no need to hang around doing it, and every reason to get a move on.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "It was yourself you ran away from" - episode 16. (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:03 pm

I think the exposition in End of Evangelion was all of maybe a minute with Shinji in Misato’s car. The rest of the 82 minutes (sans opening logos) was just drama.

Final can do the same thing, therefore being the shortest Eva film along with EoE, and I’ll still be happy. Honestly with the narrative of NTE as Shinji centric as it is, providing a detailed flashback wouldn’t seem right. And I would totally expect Anno to provide conflicting expositional points via hear-say/dialogue to Shinji, and therefore us, just so that way Shinji (and the viewers) can make up their own mind as to what would be the right thing to do at the end of the film. Heck, I would even applaud if Anno did that. Screw the exposition and the audience members desiring it and just go for the heart and soul of Eva. Life isn’t perfect or clearly laid out, especially of you’ve been out of it for over a decade.

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Postby Ray » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:50 pm

@Freaky
So basically, you've accepted there wont be enough runtime for Shinji to get a happy ending? Forever denied knowledge of the truth, damned for actions he has no Idea how he became responsible for?
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:57 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:@Freaky
So basically, you've accepted there wont be enough runtime for Shinji to get a happy ending? Forever denied knowledge of the truth, damned for actions he has no Idea how he became responsible for?

Nope. I’ve accepted that we don’t need to spend anymore than 30 seconds on it. And that if anymore time is spent, it might be better spent making the history even MORE conflicting. Not less.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:59 pm

Maybe 3.0+1.0 is a hint of the amount of hours it's going to be? Maybe it'll also have an intermission?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:34 am

Time for more ice-cream - what's not to like?
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "It was yourself you ran away from" - episode 16. (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:24 am

View Original PostRay wrote:@Freaky
So basically, you've accepted there wont be enough runtime for Shinji to get a happy ending? Forever denied knowledge of the truth, damned for actions he has no Idea how he became responsible for?


How do you get that from what he said? How does that even begin to follow? He's saying the need for exposition in Final amounts to about a minute, what the heck does that have to do with Shiinji's happy ending?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Ray » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:00 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:How do you get that from what he said? How does that even begin to follow? He's saying the need for exposition in Final amounts to about a minute, what the heck does that have to do with Shiinji's happy ending?


Sorry, that was my metaphorical pessimism bag leaking. I apologize for it. But if Shinji, and the audience by extension, doesn't get some clarity and some answers. I just don't think it will end well for anyone, Shinji or humanity in general, My impression of Freakys comment was that he was essentially saying he would prefer and 'applaud Anno' if Shinji and the audience never got any clarity. I don't follow that opinion.

Furthermore I don't believe the exposition will amount to a minute. Given all the drastic changes to the setting, Q created more new questions than it answered, on top of all the questions the first two films brought up. If Anno is planning to answer at least some of the questions, then he needs more than just 'a minute', and to get at least a good majority of answers in addition with all the spectacle and psychological horror we expect of Eva with only one movie left?

I know Anno's about 'finding your own answers' and 'don't expect to be coddled'. But to deny the audience so much as a hint to aid them in speculating? We can't empathize with Wille without time to get to know them, we can't understand why Shinji should carry on unless we get some information about the details of his supposed crime and if there is anything he can do to redeem himself, and we can't expect any answers to any questions the previous three films brought up without time to explain the answers!

Now I understand, keeping a little mystery and ambiguity is good for a Franchise in the long run.
But there's a clear difference between keeping things ambiguous with a lack of exposition for the sake of mystery, and just teasing something and never throwing the audience a bone for the sake of being a massive troll.

All I'm asking is, (happy ending or not) for a sense of closure with few if any loose ends or unanswered questions. But I reiterate with only one (possibly 90-min) movie left and many MANY more unanswered questions than the series or EOE ever had. . . I'm just a tad skeptical final can deliver without either a long running time, or being a rushed, confusing, exposition fest.

Thats all from me for now,
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:09 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Sorry, that was my metaphorical pessimism bag leaking.

Leaking? Is there even a bag?

there's a clear difference between keeping things ambiguous with a lack of exposition for the sake of mystery, and just teasing something and never throwing the audience a bone for the sake of being a massive troll.

Simply not spending time (you're worried about time for some reason, right?) on what he thinks is irrelevant to the conclusion is neither teasing nor trolling. Background which is not explained further can still be just that - background.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: "It was yourself you ran away from" - episode 16. (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:36 am

Ray: I have no problem with empathizing with Wille, nor with understanding why Shinji should carry on. I think your expectations are getting in the way of your enjoying the show. We don't need tiime to explain things; as Freaky noted, a minute will cover all that needs to be addressed. Everything past that is on the viewer's shoulders, which means you should get over it and just enjoy the show.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Ray » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:29 am

@PWhodges
Leaking? Is there even a bag?

All I can do is apologize for it, and try to rectify it when I can.
@Bagheera

We don't need time to explain things; as Freaky noted, a minute will cover all that needs to be addressed.


Yes. we. do. We already got EOE. With the bare minimum answered through exposition, and we all know how that little nightmare ended for Shinji and humanity. Is Anno really going to put us through that kind of pointless loss again?

Everything past that is on the viewer's shoulders, which means you should get over it and just enjoy the show.


My expectations have nothing to do with this, my anxiety does.

I'm planning on enjoying it when it gets here, don't get me wrong there. I'm simply hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. Considering I didn't prepare last time Anno subverted my expectations (with Q) and I spent a good week and a half critically upset, angry, and depressed about it. I don't want to be in that place again after seeing Final.

I have no problem with empathizing with Wille,


Well I do. Harshness, and borderline cruelty were all I got out of them. I'm only still on Wille's side because they're the lesser of two evils. But Empathize with them? After the dick moves they pulled on Shinji? Why should I care if they win or lose against Neo-Nerv if they're willing to be just as pragmatic and cruel as the bad guys?

Again, we need time set aside to at least somewhat develop them as good people, or at least give us a reason to believe humanity as a whole still has a soul worth saving.

nor with understanding why Shinji should carry on.


His only real friend left is dead, and if humanity (and his former friends) didn't have a justifiable reason to hate him before the events of Q they sure do now. He gave his father a doomsday device, its very likely a lot more people are going to die in Final because of his actions in Q! Maybe even more than those who died because of N3I!

Every single action he's made has always been pre-orchestrated by others, and every time he's made a decision for himself, its always been the wrong one, and ended up hurting everyone and himself. They say he needs to keep carrying on, but the reasons Anno keeps giving him are shallow at best. Why should he keep carrying on if his decisions supposedly can't do anything but hurt more people?

"You must live. . . " In a more or less doomed world you played a part in dooming? Where everyone will forever hate you, and you'll have to live with a mistake you made when you were a child? who didn't know any better? and you literally can't make your own decisions because everything you want can do nothing but hurt people? No thanks! I want no part in a world like that.

I wan't Shinji to find hope! I do! But we need a longer runtime in the final movie to find valid reasons for Shinji to hope, and not just arbitrary nebulously defined ones told by characters who were really manipulating him. You can have Kaworu say "no sin is beyond forgiveness" but unless you can show how he can be forgiven after being a bad memory for a decade and a half, after destroying his one chance to be forgiven with fourth Impact, it comes off as ungenuine. That's what I'm concerned about. That Final will be ungenuine, and hollow. That it will pass off fake hope as real thing.

To reestablish his relationships, to rebuild the bridge he burned down 14 years ago when he hurt Misato and Asuka, earn their forgiveness etc. I just don't think a short 90 min runtime can pull that off. With so much stacked against him things like conversations, development, that would make the hope he reaches believable will be left out due to time constraints, and Shinji finding 'hope' will come off as hollow, unbelievable. Kendrix said it best, it would be a 'Purely Philosophical Victory'.

But with a short runtime with little to no time to explain [i]why
he must live. I can't see any believable reason for him carrying on, and thus. . . all I see is either another EOE a good tragic movie, or a genuinely bad 'happy; movie film for a finale.

In both cases I hope I'm wrong. But without a long Runtime, is there a way to avoid either outcome?
- = =

That was me venting, hope it came off as genuine. I'm trying to not be a complete pessimist jerk here.[/list]
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:33 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Considering I didn't prepare last time Anno subverted my expectations (with Q) and I spent a good week and a half critically upset, angry, and depressed about it. I don't want to be in that place again after seeing Final.

What effective preparation could you possibly have done without knowing what was coming? The only answer I can see would be to ensure that you have no expectations at all, and are prepared to take whatever comes at face value. This doesn't seem to be the direction you are pushing in here!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Avatar: "It was yourself you ran away from" - episode 16. (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:04 am

The only instance in NTE where Anno subverted expectation on a level higher than “Oh, that’s not what happened in the TV series” was the general setting of Q and maybe the preview at the end of Ha. (One can still argue that the preview at the end of Ha fills the missing info between the years gap.) And even with the settings and character dynamics all shifted on us, it still derives its tone from the last portions of NGE anyway, so not even the tonal shift itself was a subversion of expectations for NTE. (It certainly was for NGE, though.)

Anything beyond that, especially with our assumptions for FINAL, can’t really be considered a subversion of expectations. Anno really hasn’t told us what to expect yet other than Unit 08+02 and something about Shinji finding hope.

We weren’t told that there would be a new preview for FINAL at the end of NTV’s total Eva broadcast, we weren’t told the length of FINAL (or any of these movies, really) until the actual release of the film is announced, and we weren’t told what might happen to Misato, Asuka, Mari, or the ReiWHATEVERS before Shinji finds hope. We were not told to expect certain things about them.

And if Anno didn’t tell us to expect these things, then there really isn’t a clear expectation for him to subvert. In other words, he can’t subvert an expectation that he didn’t plant.

Really, all that be said about what we should expect from FINAL (and therefore the only expectations that Anno can subvert) is exactly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FtVJ3C3GCw

If Shinji has actually found himself after losing his will to live at the beginning of the movie, if his destination doesn’t teach him hope, if Instrumentality does not begin making it so Willie doesn’t have to fight against it, if Wunder doesn’t pierce through the sky, if Unit 08+02 doesn’t sprint over the red earth, if Final never comes out, and/or if THERE'S NO FREAKING FAN SERVICE in the next film (also the only other real expectation subverted in Q), then and only then has Anno subverted our expectations. At least until we’re given more from Anno as to what he would want us to expect.

Everything else is up for whatever Anno wants to do with it, up to and including the film’s release date and duration. If it’s a 90 minute film that comes out in the year 2017, then so be it. What are you going to do about it? Not watch it?


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