Issues With Runtime: How Long Does Final NEED to be?

The fate of SPOILERS is also the joy of speculation.
Readers enter at their own risk.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7767
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:10 pm

Anno knows what it was like to work months on animating a single episode with very little pay. Just rewind to his days directing Nadia. I’d like to think that influenced his philosophy on the people he hires and their compensation for the better.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:47 pm

Funding only deals with the time that you're hiring the animators for. Materials are relatively inexpensive compared to hiring manhours. The shortness of Final as caused by lack of funds would then be related to the amount of time that Anno had people working on it. He's had a considerable amount of time for the actual production of the movie; the actual work on a feature-length animated film is completed in around two years. The rest of it is ideation.

You're right; bigger is not always better. The movie should only be as long as it needs to be.

Giji Shinka
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 2621
Joined: Jan 26, 2013
Location: Finland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Giji Shinka » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:45 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Can it believably be done in only one movie though?

Yes.
Anno was able to resolve a lot of stuff in +80 minutes long EoE, so of course he can easily do it again in 3.0+1.0.
Avatar: "Anime-lehti" logo

EvangelionGodMode
Sachiel
User avatar
Age: 22
Posts: 231
Joined: Apr 25, 2014
Location: WhataintnocountryIeverheardof
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EvangelionGodMode » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:00 pm

I wouldn't mind a 2 hr 30min movie. TO explain the plotholes in 3.0 and to show us the characters past again. Also explain Mari's backstory. And if the loop theory is true , there might be another komm susser tod like scene with flashbacks inside of flashbacks = Mindfuck
Bong. James Bong. Bruce lee the way I kick it, Tiger Woods the way I hit it.-Blake ,Workaholics.
To put it in laid man terms, hes getting laid man.-Blake, Workaholics.
"You shoulda known the price of evil"-M Shadows

Sorrow
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1069
Joined: Jul 06, 2014

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sorrow » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:38 pm

FINAL will be as long as Anno needs it to be.

He won't leave out anything he thinks needs to be explained or shown.
The fate of man…the hope of man is written in sorrow.

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 10212
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: 可塑の椅子

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:54 pm

And even if he does, we could always get more information from them later (a la CI.)

Adaminator1
Lilith
Age: 25
Posts: 109
Joined: Nov 10, 2013

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Adaminator1 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:55 am

View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:I wouldn't mind a 2 hr 30min movie. TO explain the plotholes in 3.0 and to show us the characters past again. Also explain Mari's backstory. And if the loop theory is true , there might be another komm susser tod like scene with flashbacks inside of flashbacks = Mindfuck


..."plotholes"

Pray tell, do you think that plotholes are simply "As of yet unexplained plot phenomena"?

Nope! Plot holes are when the actual explanation for things don't make sense. Criteria for plotholes relies on there already being a canonical explanation.

What we have in 3.0 is simply plot elements left intentionally ambiguous.
I finally put something here!

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 7767
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:26 am

^ To quote Wikipedia, "A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.”

We really can’t say that events in NTE contradict one another just yet since we know so little about them in the first place.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6844
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:38 am

^
Following that definition, the only thing that could eventually be called a plothole in Q is the discrepancy between what we saw at the end of 2.0 when Kaworu stopped N3I and what we see in Q proper about the state of the landscape surrounding Tokyo-3.
And even then it's heavily implied to be because there's a chunk of the story missing.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Sorrow
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1069
Joined: Jul 06, 2014

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sorrow » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:45 am

A gap of information isn't a plot hole - even if it's never filled in. A plot hole is when you are given the information and it still doesn't make sense; id est, they made a mistake or overlooked something, creating a contradiction or paradox.

The inconsistency (because it's not a discrepancy) between what we see at the end of 2.0 and what we see in 3.0 is not a plot hole. It's missing information.
The fate of man…the hope of man is written in sorrow.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6844
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:13 am

View Original PostSorrow wrote:The inconsistency (because it's not a discrepancy) between what we see at the end of 2.0 and what we see in 3.0 is not a plot hole. It's missing information.

That's why I used the conditional here: that inconsistency can eventually become a plothole if FINAL continue with the line that Shinji's N3I is what ravaged the land into what we see in Q, even thought that doesn't make sense with what we see in the 2.0 stinger.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Sorrow
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1069
Joined: Jul 06, 2014

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sorrow » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:53 am

It could have been "fixed" in 3.0. If Anno going into 3.0 realised he didn't show enough devastation in 2.0's ending, for the sake of the continuing story, then it isn't a plot hole for him to make it seem worse in later works than it appeared to us previously. If they don't state that something else caused the landscape to appear as it does, and it was in fact Shinji's impact alone, then there is no reason to think otherwise. It's a visual inconsistency - not a plot inconsistency.

The event itself remains logical and consistent; only the artists depiction--which is a discrepancy--of it has changed between works somewhat - for intended effect.

Also, even if other things occurred that caused the further destruction that we see (which I'm expecting there is), it isn't necessarily a plot hole for the characters to consider Shinji's near third impact to be the reason for all the damage - even if it isn't the sole reason in reality. Like people blaming Hitler for World War II, when it was Britain and France who declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland.
The fate of man…the hope of man is written in sorrow.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6844
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:05 am

^
Again, if the discrepancy is explained in-universe, be it by something else that happened (and it must be the case, Kaworu named Lilith's cadaver with the 12th Angel inside as the "Epicenter of Third Impact") or because people pins the blame of Shinji by extension as the starting of a domino effect, then fine.

But if it's confirmed that Shinji is directly what led to what we saw in Q, that would go beyond mere artistic depiction: Third Impact involved a giant horde of headless giant statues wrecking havoc, the Moon crashing back on Earth, and that the 12th Angel fusing with Lilith, something everyone want to avoid as it would explicitly kill everyone, did absolutely nothing except piss off Lilith.
Discrepancy of that level is called a plothole.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Sorrow
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1069
Joined: Jul 06, 2014

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sorrow » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:40 am

Eh? I just thought you were talking about how the landscape looks worse in 3.0 than it did at the end of 2.0? I don't recall anything about the moon crashing on Earth or an angel fusing with Lilith during the time skip, or giant statues "wreaking havoc"? Those giant statues are people trying to ascend or evolve, until Kaworu cut third impact short - I thought. There's no discrepancy there, we just didn't see it in 2.0. The angel being with Lilith was set up, presumably by Gendo, for later. It isn't a result of near third impact - no discrepancy there. Clearly something happened involving Lilith in the time skip, but I don't think it was impact related or causing more damage to the environment etcetera?

The Moon crashing into Earth? I literally have no idea about that; though if it did, perhaps, like the giant red Eva-esque things, we just didn't see it in 2.0, though it happened during near third impact all the same? Doesn't make it a discrepancy when we find out in 3.0.

Perhaps it's time I re-watched the film... Moon crashing into Earth... ?

EDIT: ah, I vaguely remember now. It's the same time he sees the giant red crosses, isn't it? Yeah, I still think it could have occurred during 2.0, but we didn't see it. If Anno decided whilst making 3.0 that that had happened then it isn't a plot hole - it just means we weren't shown it happening at the time.
Last edited by Sorrow on Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
The fate of man…the hope of man is written in sorrow.

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9827
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:47 am

We see the Nerv staff watching N3I at the end of Ha, but they do not become FoIs, nor is Nerv apparently so damaged at the point when Kaworu appears to stop it. Also Kaworu tells Shinji that Central Dogma was the epicentre of 3I, which is not what we saw in N3I. The moon doesn't crash into Earth; but it appears to be so low that its orbit is unsustainable, and the gravitational effects would be severe (this is the nearest thing to a plot hole around, actually, that there are not apparently continuous earthquakes) - I suppose it could be an optical illusion that hasn't yet been exposed....
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Why shouldn't a healthy young man be naked at home? (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6844
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:55 am

Yes, the Moon crashing into Earth, that:
SPOILER: Show
[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C0797 comp.jpg[/wkimg]

And the script confirms that it's the Moon, the one usually hanging around the planet.

The FoIs being people that mutated into "that" is speculation (although a possibility), but they came from Lilith's Chamber (its littered giant skulls, the FoIs are all headless and many of them are seen climbing the walls, put 2 and 2 together) so they should had come from the top of the main shaft, ie right where Misato and Co where standing!
Yet not a single trace of them in the stinger.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Sorrow
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1069
Joined: Jul 06, 2014

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sorrow » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:59 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:We see the Nerv staff watching N3I at the end of Ha, but they do not become FoIs, nor is Nerv apparently so damaged at the point when Kaworu appears to stop it.
Yeah, the damage to Nerv is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of when I was talking about artist depiction. It doesn't match up, but it can be explained away by Anno's decision to make it seem worse in 3.0 - though the actual canonicity of the event remains the same.

What does FoI stand for? Apologies. If it has anything to do with the--failures of impact? that just popped in my head--giant red Eva things, then I suppose it means it isn't based on those closest to the event, but a random selection? Conveniently for the story, of course.

I agree with what you mentioned in regards to the gravitational effects of the Moon. That does appear to be an unmentioned issue, and I doubt it would be cleared up.

The picture posted by ElMariachi: I wonder why the crevice looks so much like teeth - complete with gums.
The fate of man…the hope of man is written in sorrow.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6844
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:36 am

We made a very complete FAQ about the third, the answers to most of your questions can be found there:
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Evangelion_3.33_FAQ
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 71
Posts: 9827
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:43 am

FoI is Kaworu's term "Failures of Infinity". What that means is another matter... Perhaps they're at an intermediate stage on the way the Rebuild's equivalent to Instrumentality. Or something. Or not. Who knows!

They're quite prominent in the supposed storyboards in Sagisu's Petit Film, which might (or might not) indicate that we get an explanation at the beginning of Final as the pilots travel among them.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Why shouldn't a healthy young man be naked at home? (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

Pen-Pen02
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 33
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
Location: Perú
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Pen-Pen02 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:12 pm

I think there are a lot of secrets for revealing in Rebuild so, I believe time could be short for all of them. For this reason, fans will have to speculate about them for a long, long time. But at final, just the "most importants" will be checked and I think that's enough. For example, some of them could be:

1. How responsible Shinji is about Third Impact (this will include the events that happened 14 years before)
2. Gendo's intentions
3. Yui's intentions and if she is in EVA 01
4. Mari's intentions (if she has one)
5. About Rei II (Is she dead or alive in some way?)
6. About Rei Q (What is she going to do?)
7. Asuka's eyepatch
8. Nebuchadnezzar's Key
9. About the Adams (I think Lilith won't come back again, she's dead)
10. The origin of AAA Wunder
11. Where Kaji is (dead or alive) or Shinji's friends

The mayority of them could solve easily explaining them in a few minutes (the four last one, for example). In other cases, they could take more time. All this depends of Anno. But I think he will tried to do all of these explications simultaneously. In this way, film will be better.

Also, a lot of fans want to see EVA01 fighting again. Because of this, Wunder will have a short life, I dunno. All Angels are dead and Seele too, so they just have to fight against Gendo and Nerv, so it's less time for the story.

And about Misato and Shinji: I think Shinji will do something for repairing the world, but now with a better sense of what have to do (in this case, Asuka and Mari could help him in some way). Misato will see it and maybe could forgive him (forgive in a sense of they're even or in peace). If just Misato forgives Shinji, I'll be happy, that's all I want. I don't have problems with Asuka. I doubt that she hates Shinji so, she could forgive him in some way (after all, she loves him a bit, well, I think so).

Respect a happy ending, uhh... I think it will be a 50/50. I conform with a respectable one. But Anno talk about "love" at final, so I keep some hope on it. I think Shinji will find love at final, a general love for his neighbours and himself and he will find peace again. And shipping... Well, Shinji will stay alone. He's just 14 years old and needs to know more about life, so it's not a big problem. Also, in Rebuild he was closer with Rei II and Kaworu and now they're gone... so he needs a rest of this and recovers. Maybe if Asuka confess him her feelings, I don't know how Shinji's reaction could be. Shikinami is not Soryu so I think it could be possible to happen (he never noticed Asuka's feelings, because of this she has to tell him if she wants he knows about them).

I supossed two hours of film are fine for solve all this.
"Hoping that Shinji could finally penetrate the wall of Jericho..."

I only speak Spanish. Sorry for grammatical mistakes in my posts...


Return to “Evangelion Final [SPOILERS]”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests