How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:31 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Key differences: 1)Shinji isn't a hero. He's a protagonist.


Shinji is a hero by any definition of the term. There are lots of dead angels to prove it, and lots of living people (like everyone left on Earth) who wouldn't be if not for him. The fact he screwed up later changes none of this.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:45 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Shinji is a hero by any definition of the term. There are lots of dead angels to prove it, and lots of living people (like everyone left on Earth) who wouldn't be if not for him. The fact he screwed up later changes none of this.


He killed a lot of angels because he is a conscript and he is coerced one way or another. Not because he is a hero.
And the fact that he screwed... Yes it changes it. It takes just one mistake, to invalidate all the good you did. Especially if Shinji's mistake DID made the global devastation possible, then all the lives he saved were lost anyway. No one at WILLE also seems to care that they even can look down on him because he stopped Zeruel. No. He caused all their misery so all he did beforehand is worth nothing to them. It actually works the same in real life. A medic can save a hudnreds of lives but if he makes a mistake and kills one, only that kill will be remembered.

Q invalidated everything Shinji achieved and put a permanent negative brand on his forehead.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:47 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Key differences: 1)Shinji isn't a hero. He's a protagonist.

Define hero, then?

2)Shinji doesn't overcome struggles.

Um, the ends of both EoTV and EoE? The films haven't reached the equivalent point yet, so there's no counter-argument to come from them.

Note, decent stories are not about "being a hero all the time". They are about struggles and growth, being knocked back, and eventually getting up to try again. All the sort of stuff we see in Evangelion, in fact.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:55 am

But Shinji does not get back up. He merely changes the way he lies to avoid blows. Shinji at the end of EoE is not improved. He is broken and reassembled differently but by no means better than he was.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:04 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:He killed a lot of angels because he is a conscript and he is coerced one way or another. Not because he is a hero.


Regardless, he did it, so yes, he is a hero.

Q invalidated everything Shinji achieved and put a permanent negative brand on his forehead.


Only in the minds of a very small number of people. For the rest of the population, no so much.

View Original PostStillborn wrote:But Shinji does not get back up. He merely changes the way he lies to avoid blows. Shinji at the end of EoE is not improved. He is broken and reassembled differently but by no means better than he was.


The narrative disagrees, as do most who view the show.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:18 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Only in the minds of a very small number of people. For the rest of the population, no so much.


Actually I meant it in universe.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The narrative disagrees, as do most who view the show.


Both of those are debatable. Just because EGF consolidated certain camp and seems larger than otherwise scattered opinion in the net, it does not make it right.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:35 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Actually I meant it in universe.


That has not been established.

Both of those are debatable.


Not really. The narrative makes it clear he's improved.

Just because EGF consolidated certain camp and seems larger than otherwise scattered opinion in the net, it does not make it right.


True. The fact that said opinion mirrors what's actually shown in the movie and TV endings indicates we're probably on to something, though. :tongue:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:39 am

Once again you put your opinion and interpretation as a fact. And that is fundamentally wrong. But we already reached the point of "no, you!" in this discussion. I don't think anything groundbreaking can be said for a while.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:51 am

That is an unfair way to describe "We're probably on to something".

Also:
Stillborn wrote:But Shinji does not get back up. He merely changes the way he lies to avoid blows. Shinji at the end of EoE is not improved. He is broken and reassembled differently but by no means better than he was.
Stillborn wrote:Once again you put your opinion and interpretation as a fact. And that is fundamentally wrong.

Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander - if you can express your opinions and interpretations unqualified, so can someone else.
Last edited by pwhodges on Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:52 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Once again you put your opinion and interpretation as a fact. And that is fundamentally wrong. But we already reached the point of "no, you!" in this discussion. I don't think anything groundbreaking can be said for a while.


I know it's unfashionable to point it out these days, but some things are matters of fact and can't be dismissed as mere opinion. EoTV makes it unquestionably clear that Shinji has had a breakthrough and is moving forward. That's not a matter of opinion or interpretation, it's what the text explicitly says. Similarly, we have seen no evidence, anywhere, that anyone beyond the crew of the Wunder even knows who Shinji is, let alone that he was responsible for two Impacts, so it is also a fact that the notion that Shinji has been permanently branded in the new movies has not been established (your insistence on such is you positing your own opinion and interpretation as fact, and repeating it ad nauseam to boot). That is not me being dogmatic about my opinions, it's just me recognizing the plain truth of the material presented to us. EoE is more open to interpretation, but given the very real changes in his behavior after 3I (and his conversations with Rei/Lilith and his mother) I think it's safe to say he's in a very different place at the end than he was at the beginning of the movie, and likely the series as well.

So no, I'm not positing my own opinion/interpretation as fact here. I'm just pointing out facts that invalidate your opinion, and you're getting salty about it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:19 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Similarly, we have seen no evidence, anywhere, that anyone beyond the crew of the Wunder even knows who Shinji is, let alone that he was responsible for two Impacts, so it is also a fact that the notion that Shinji has been permanently branded in the new movies has not been established (your insistence on such is you positing your own opinion and interpretation as fact, and repeating it ad nauseam to boot).


The bridge crew just looks at him for a few seconds before going back to their jobs and pay him no mind until he yells that he wants to pilot Unit 01, and they're the ones who know what's really at stake. The whole "persecuted Shinji" thing is ridiculous.

Shinji chose to stay and fight. He was free to leave whenever he wanted and almost did twice. He made the decision to come back and keep at it. He is a hero, and he's made mistakes. He made a mistake awakening Unit 01, but that kickstarted a chain of events that eventually enabled the defeat of the last two Angels, the Vessel of the Adams and Seele itself, which Wille and Gendo were not able to accomplish in 14 years of war and scheming. The Ship of Hope only works because of Unit 01. His screw ups aren't without their silver linings.

I don't think Shinji will be anything like Gendo when he grows up. There are moments when he's hurt, mad or desperate that you can see elements of Gendo in him, but Shinji is not cold or nasty enough to act like his father does all the time. Per his own words, Gendo is used to being hated and disliked. He hurts a lot of people to satisfy his own ends and doesn't seem bothered by that. Just look at this reaction when Fuyutsuki accuses him of knowing Second Impact was going to happen in Ep21. Rebuild Shinji in particular hurts people because he's ignorant, self-centered and acts rashly without considering the potential consequences. Gendo does it because he has considered the long-term consequences and uses them to his advantage. One can learn to be a better person with life experience, the other won't.

I think he'll take more from Misato and Kaji but won't repeat the same mistakes they made. I see him as a caring and compassionate person who is still has hints of melancholy, but who has learned and is still learning to like himself as a person and who has used the hardships in his past to develop into a more caring and compassionate person. He'll move on from the past and let the scars fade but won't forget. I could see him being really happy as a musician or a chef or even a stay at home dad. He seems like the type of person who would find joy in making others happy through his works.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:05 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:I see him as a caring and compassionate person who is still has hints of melancholy, but who has learned and is still learning to like himself as a person and who has used the hardships in his past to develop into a more caring and compassionate person. He'll move on from the past and let the scars fade but won't forget. I could see him being really happy as a musician or a chef or even a stay at home dad. He seems like the type of person who would find joy in making others happy through his works.

That describes the Shinji of my fic to a T.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Lennik » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:57 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:It actually works the same in real life. A medic can save a hudnreds of lives but if he makes a mistake and kills one, only that kill will be remembered.


I'd also like to point out that this is absolute bunk with no basis in realism. If this were true, every medic ever would be remembered as a failure, since no medic can save everyone, and everybody knows and accepts that as a normal risk. Shinji is a hero who's screwed up a few times. But if the screw-ups were all that mattered, would anybody at the end of Q be chastising him for not "saving the princess"? There is an expectation there, and the expectation is that he can still do some things right if only he would listen and try. You can't be disappointed in someone if you don't have hope for them to begin with.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:02 am

View Original PostLennik wrote:things


I don't agree with Born, and this isn't the right topic to talk about it. But a medic failing to save one persons life doesn't cause the deaths of thousands (maybe millions) of other people. So the comparison kind've falls apart. Our failures only hurt ourselves and those around us. They don't explode outwards and make tons of people suffer.

Can you really go back to being a hero again after you've ended and/or completely ruined the lives of thousands, including your friends and family? If say yes, you're millions of times more optimistic than I can ever be.
- - - -

But anyway, since you brought this thread up again. I might as well ask a few questions.

What would Shinji's relationships be like if he met someone new?

In my fic, he meets several new people. One of which actually tries to understand him and what he's been through, he/she can't because nobody can understand what Shinji's been through but another Pilot. One of which is bitter towards him, but can't bring him/herself to hate him. The other which has a serious (and not entirely unjustified) bias against him, that's partially reinforced and partially undermined by Shinji's actions within the story.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:21 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Can you really go back to being a hero again after you've ended and/or completely ruined the lives of thousands, including your friends and family? If say yes, you're millions of times more optimistic than I can ever be.


Yes. It's actually a pretty common trope, particularly for reformed villains. See Magneto in the X-Men, for instance, or . . . heck, just go here. Some of the example characters were downright terrible people before they reformed, but they went on to become genuinely heroic sorts and were appreciated for it. It's not as outrageous a notion as you seem to think. And it's not just limited to literature, either; remember Paul, from the Bible? Guy used to be named Saul, and he was . . . not a pleasant fellow. Stuff like this happens all the time, and people forgive. It's how we move on and avoid dwelling on the past.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:34 am

Are you seriously compared Shinji to Magneto? Character from western animation who had fanbase even while he was still racist villian?

None of the tropes ever work in Shinji's favour. Shinji's role is to deconstruct the positive tropes... As a crash test manequinn.

So no. Shinji will NOT return to being a hero or heroic. He will instead learn to follow orders of higher ups and "better informed people" without any agenda of his own. Again. And finally he will accept all their believes all their priorites and values as his own, so no one culd point out that he "only follows orders". Cue the completed developement. Joy.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Apalos » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:57 am

"How to characterize Shinji as an adult?"
...
...
...
There are a lot of factors to take into consideration, in my opinion. When does it take place? A year after the movie? 10 years after the movie? Does Shinji have a social net? Is he taking drugs? Does he have any vices? Seeing a doctor? Have a significant other? All these and more would change Shinji as an adult. I will be using a Shinji I have planned for my first real fic, which I'm currently working on.

The continuity is Neon Genesis Evangelion (TV) and End of Evangelion (Movie).
The length of the fic will range from mere minutes after End of Evangelion to several decades later. Might go even further depending how the fic(s) goes.
One of the beginning differences between the beginning of my fic and the End of Evangelion is that Shinji comes back alone and is alone for a long time (3 years). Asuka does not come back with him.
The isolation from any other human starts to affect Shinji, resulting in the worsening of his PTSD, he starts to hallucinate important people from his life and maybe psychosis.
Shinji's thoughts are full of despair at his situation, anger at the people responsible for this situation (including himself) and guilt at letting Misato, Asuka and all the people he knew die.
On his 15th birthday, he attempts suicide. Fails multiple times. Due to Instrumentality shenanigans, the effects of being born after second impact, piloting an Evangelion and being absorbed into a Evangelion, Shinji can not die (Go regeneration!). I will go into the reasons in my fic, but it involves him having both the fruit of knowledge and life.
After his suicide attempt(s), Shinji despair turns into a resigned acceptance of his situation. He believes this is his personal hell and that he is not allowed to rest. He continues to survive for the next 2 and 1/2 years.

People start coming back 3 years after 3rd impact, starting with the stronger willed people, including Misato and Asuka. This will last for 30 years, with people coming back over time.
Shinji is at first, filled with joy. However those 3 years alone left him stewing in his own thoughts. He does not deserve joy, love or friendship. He is one of the ones responsible for the current state of the world. (No matter that he was forced into that situation and that true blame fell to Gendo, SEELE and others). It does not matter what he WANTS, it matters what he DESERVES. In Shinji's mind he deserves all their hate and scorn.
But he will not run away to his room, turn on his SDAT and drown out the world.
He will assist Misato and any leaders that pop up in restoring law, order and stability. (3 years with no humans has not been kind to human infrastructure. Also almost no food except for cans and rations that are designed to last a long time.) He will help build houses, bind wounds and grow food.
This is how, in his mind, he will earn his redemption. By protecting his friends and helping heal the world.

He will be hurt with kindness. At this point in time, he fully expects everyone's hate and scorn. Some might blame him. Others will see his actions to help and will treat him with kindness. Forgiveness from Misato and Asuka will fully break him. Then, he will be able to rebuild himself.

But that's my Shinji. Any Shinji anyone will write as an adult will be unique and wholly theirs. It might help to write out a timeline, by months (If someone wants to be detailed) or years (If someone wants to have a general image). Write the highs and lows every month/year. Events. Romance. Therapy. It will help anyone determine what kind a person Shinji will be 10, 20 or 30 years down the road. It can be whoever they want it to be.
Last edited by Apalos on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:04 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:So no. Shinji will NOT return to being a hero or heroic. He will instead learn to follow orders of higher ups and "better informed people" without any agenda of his own. Again. And finally he will accept all their believes all their priorites and values as his own, so no one culd point out that he "only follows orders". Cue the completed developement. Joy.


Hey, you know that thing where you complain about someone stating their opinions as fact, and acting like those of others are worthless? You're doing it right here. Stop it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:46 am

Well... I'll stop if you do, but I don't see that coming anytime soon :P

But fine. For the sake of being precise, I'll underline that the post I wrote is my opinion based on everything I've seen so far.

There. You have it.
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Re: How To Characterize Shinji As An Adult?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:09 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Shinji will NOT return to being a hero or heroic

That's rather the way Shinji is in my fic :wink:
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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