How did Mari and Asuka get into Lilith's chamber? [split]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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How did Mari and Asuka get into Lilith's chamber? [split]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:54 pm

[Split from here. - Monk]

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The dialog talked about reconfiguring1/ breaking the seal to Lilith's Chamber, as apparently two pilot synchronizing in the same Eva produce an AT Field(or anti-AT field, it's not clear) strong enough to break it.
Although then that raise the question of how Mari and Asuka could already be there waiting in ambush, maybe there are other entrances that opened during the passing 14 years due to damages, but EVA-13 took the elevator because it was more confy and it could open the seal, who knows...

They weren't. They followed them down after they entered. The crew on the AAA Wunder didn’t get the signal that the wearer of the DSS collar was operating a unit until after it was activated, and Unit 13 was much closer to the epicenter than the AAA Wunder was, which is where they would have launched the Eva Units.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:16 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:They weren't. They followed them down after they entered. The crew on the AAA Wunder didn’t get the signal that the wearer of the DSS collar was operating a unit until after it was activated, and Unit 13 was much closer to the epicenter than the AAA Wunder was, which is where they would have launched the Eva Units.


Yeah, I never understood this notion that they had to have been lying in wait or whatever. Shinji and Kaworu went in first, the girls followed, got set up, and attacked shortly thereafter. Not hard to connect the dots there.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:36 pm

^
Maybe it's the fact that it was straight up impossible for Asuka and Mari to have followed then in the Main Shaft?

Just think about it : the only entrance to the main shaft is the giant door in neo-NERV HQ, do you really want to make me believe that EVA 02 and 08 entered in the HQ incognito, traveled until the big door and somehow descended the kilometers long vertical tunnel which only has the elevator that EVA-13 and Mark.09 were using as a way to descend since the walls are totally smooth, while somehow not being detected at all by the two other Evas, and finally that in the one minute and 33 seconds (I timed it!) between the seal being broken and EVA-02 beginning the ambush, they had the time to somehow escalate horizontally the roof of the chamber and set in place EVA-08's sniper nest with the containers to support EVA-02!
All the while avoiding Rei Q whose order was to keep an eye all around for any signs of WILLE activity!

Besides we did saw them get out of Lilith's Chamber by a fissure in the Black Moon once Fourth Impact started!
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:41 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Maybe it's the fact that it was straight up impossible for Asuka and Mari to have followed then in the Main Shaft?


Yeah, that's your hangup, not mine. I don't see any problems with it at all.

Besides we did saw them get out of Lilith's Chamber by a fissure in the Black Moon once Fourth Impact started!


So a giant whatever-the-fuck-it-is emerges from the Earth and creates fissures in the ground in the process? Shocking.

Again, not seeing the problem here.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:46 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:So a giant whatever-the-fuck-it-is emerges from the Earth and creates fissures in the ground in the process? Shocking.

Again, not seeing the problem here.

The problem is that said giant whatever-the-fuck-it-is was built to resist a direct crash with a planet to implant itself in the earth crust could be damaged by just emerging from an already gutted open ground.

But here it's not the place for that discussion, I think that I'll open a proper thread about that topic that was in my head from quite some time.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:07 pm

It’s not like the Main Shaft was guarded by anything other than the giant lid to begin with. (I think that’s what Rei and her Mark.09 were for, more or less, before she could decapitate Mark.06: Play look out for Unit 13 for a while.) The only issue with Mari and Asuka entering would be how they could have lowered themselves in there, which would have been a hurdle even greater to overcome before they lid was opened. (Mari is even shown being high up in the shaft anyway while Asuka was already on the ground. Later on, both Mari and Asuka are on the ground. so some amount of climbing must have been feasible, which would have been a slow task, which is probably why it took them a bit longer than Unit 13 did at getting down to the bottom.)

No matter how you slice it, it’s just more plausible that way given the information we know about the lid and the architecture of the shaft itself. The gritty details of exactly how they entered after the lid was opened are left up to the audience’s imaginations, which are probably a lot more hard at work figuring out the whole 14-year-time skip and Lilith’s corpse and stuff.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:17 pm

Mari wasn't in the Main Shaft, she was in a fissure next to the Main Shaft which wasn't connected to it.
SPOILER: Show
[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C1135 dogma ceiling b.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C1136 crevice.jpg[/wkimg]

Also if they were really following EVA-13 and Mark.09 through the Main Shaft, then why didn't they attacked before the seal was opened? Why waiting until Unit 13 break the seal only it could break and their objective (the spears) was in sight? An attack while the pilots were busy concentrating in synchronizing each other and generate the AT Field to break the seal would had been far more efficient than once they touched ground.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:12 pm

I'm pretty sure we've been over this a billion times in other threads...

Probably sequence of events:
-Shinji is kidnapped, Wille takes this as a cue to prepare to deal with whatever is going to happen.
-Wille has the Wunder which can fly at obsurd speeds and deliver two Evas and lots of equipment.
-Wille get their stuff ready to go and wait because who know wtf Gendo is up to.
-Let's assume Wunder is circling as close to Tokyo-3 without getting detected
-Wille get the NEW EVA ACTIVATION OH NOES
-Full speed ahead. They fly in, drop the two Evas and their equipment (2 batteries, 2 arm containers, Mari's rifle and Asuka's double glaive)

IIRC one of ElMariachi's objections is that all that equiment takes too long to transport and set up.
I disagree. The rifle and glaive are negligible weight. The arm contrainer for 02 should be pretty light since it's just arms. The batteries do seem pretty big but I don't see how two Eva's can't wrestle them around or especially with the helpt of gravity do a controlled descent at the end of an Eva-sized rope.
One of the problems here is the assumption that the crevace through which MariAsu enter is as deep as the shaft. I don't see as that being the case. The shaft is miles in the sky and one would assume Eva-13 descends all the way from the Neo-Nerv Inveramid. The shaft in the end descends down to the moon still below ground, through the iris.
For me it is perfectly plausible that the Wunder flies by, MariAsu parachute off and descene through the iris outside the main shaft and land on the surface of the moon. Knowing they've been fighting so long they no doubt have their maps in order. They know where the crevace in the moon is, but Dogma itself is completely surrounded by the barrier blocking all acces. It really wouldn't make sense for the magical barrier to only block the shaft entrance.
Also given how quickly 02 and 08 make it back to the surface of the moon once it has been extracted from the earth it is reasonable to assume it's not that deep or hard to navigate.

So back to the sequence:
-MariAsu jump off the Wunder, make their way down and nail their equipment to the wall. This really wouldn't take that long if they have Eva-sized equivalents of modern mountain climbing equipment. Anchors into the walls don't take that long to set up.
-KawoShin+Rei make it to the barrier and break it open, giving MariAsu their access
-If MariAsu are done setting up their equipment when the barrier in front of them breaks they wait for the best moment to jump KawoShin, which they get when Kaworu gets confused
-If they're still setting up that also explain the lag. Personnally I think it's the above option and not this one.

It really doesn't take that long to nail 4 items and 2 foot-anchors to a rock wall. MariAsu are supposed to be ace pilots with a decade+ experience. This is comparible to a special force operation where they're trained to drop in, set up and execute in as short amount of time as possible. I really don't see them taking any more than 5-6 minutes from the time they parachute off to when they're rady to jump KawoShin.

Anyway I've really thought about this every time it's been brought up and I really don't see the problem. I'll draw pictures later if my text is too shit to understand.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:31 pm

I've only watched 3.33 twice but both times, the series of events followed in a logical order for me to understand things. Hell, I never even knew the Asuka/Mari sequence was an issue until this thread! -o-;

TM: I understand what you mean, but personally I'm a visual learner. Could you put together some pics/a mini image gallery if you have the time?
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:17 am

@ TMB : THIS.
This is exactly what I had in mind as the probable sequence of events, thank you man you explained it far better than I could! :thumbsup:

My complain about how the WILLE team equipment took too long to transport and set up was in the case that they were following the neo-NERV team in the Main Shat, but if they prepared themselves slightly in advance via another entrance point, then it becomes largely possible, as you said MariAsu are supposed to be trained pilots with now a decade and half of experience.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Dima » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:33 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I've only watched 3.33 twice but both times, the series of events followed in a logical order for me to understand things. Hell, I never even knew the Asuka/Mari sequence was an issue until this thread! -o-;


Welcome to EvaGeeks where threads like this take the 95% of the forum. (i made a bunch myself too)

This doesn't mean that ElMariachi doesn't have a point here though.
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Postby one-eyed » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:07 am

I have the feeling that something is missing or was forced in many scenes of Evangelion since NGE.

I like the theory that defines the cause is the Anno method of creating the outcome of a scene and reverse engineer to get the result he wants: Anno thinks of a scene and will directing the characters and parts of the story to culminate this event. Sometimes, he adds some finishing touches, stupefies some characters or violates the laws of physics a bit. The result usually leaves as he wants, but it has moments that are left with a bad taste in my mouth when I have to swallow them.

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Postby NemZ » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:29 pm

It does seem rather strange that they just show up right in time to stop it when they've been abscent for so much of the movie, but I guess that just boils down to narrative convenience. It's like worrying about relativity in Star Wars movies where people are jumping halfway across the galaxy multiple times per film and still just getting where they need to be when they need to be there.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:58 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:@ TMB : THIS.
This is exactly what I had in mind as the probable sequence of events, thank you man you explained it far better than I could! :thumbsup:


:uhh: But he's explaining why your objection isn't valid, and why another entry point isn't needed . . .
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:35 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote::uhh: But he's explaining why your objection isn't valid, and why another entry point isn't needed . . .

Errr... no, that's quite the contrary : he explains that Mari and Asuka were directly dropped in the Geofront (now transformed into the "iris"), and from here they had gone inside a crevasse next to the Main Shaft that descend all the way down to Lilith's Chamber, but that the end of the crevasse was sealed off by the same seal than in the main entrance, so they installed their sniper nest here and waited for neo-NERV to send whatever the hell they prepared which would be able to break the seal, also clearing their crevasse and letting them carry out their ambush.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:16 pm

Crummy pictures time.

Just to recap: When Shinji is kidnapped Wille has a finally fully functional Autonomous Assault Ark + 2 refitter Evas. They load up and speed off to Japan to be ready to respond to whatever the hell Gendo is planning.

Once the Day of Fourth Impact comes:
SPOILER: Show
Image


Descending downwards.
It's fairly safe to assume the barrier extends through the walls of FoIs:
http://i.minus.com/ibjyWNx3obTL9I.jpg and the under side http://i.minus.com/iztbEQihxuatn.jpg

So

SPOILER: Show
Image


Image


Image


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Postby Bagheera » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:22 pm

As long as the barrier extends everywhere I see no problem with this interpretation. My main issue with the crevice idea was that it bypassed the barrier and produced a big gaping plot hole in the story, but if the barrier blocked it as well that plot hole goes away. So, it all works! :asuka_thumbsup:
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:34 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:It does seem rather strange that they just show up right in time to stop it when they've been abscent for so much of the movie, but I guess that just boils down to narrative convenience.

It doesn't even have to go that far. I think people, or should I say, "nerds" in general, work too hard to tear apart fiction instead of working with it to have an enjoyable experience. People bring up lots of things -- on EGF and elsewhere -- that didn't bother me even for a second when I watched the movies or series in question myself, because I always just assume that, as in real life, when two things appear contradictory, it's probably just that the rules were a bit more complex than you originally thought.

I think the best example I can think of of this is this one complaint I heard about the Avengers movie, where I heard it asked, "Can the Hulk control himself or not?". Why does it have to be that simple, and why does it have to be a big enough deal for you to even ask that? When I saw the movie, my assumption was simply that when Banner enters Hulk form on his own terms, he can control himself better. It's not even a particularly difficult or uncommon concept; I've seen it elsewhere. I didn't need it explained to me, and having someone take time out to explain it in the movie would likely have been just awkward at best.

Applying this to the scene in question, I likewise was not bothered by Mari and Asuka showing up when they did where they did given the number of unknowns. I'm content to think they simply
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:53 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Applying this to the scene in question, I likewise was not bothered by Mari and Asuka showing up when they did where they did given the number of unknowns. I'm content to think they simply


:dog_laugh:



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Well it's some magical, unexplained barrier kept the epicenter of 3rd Impact a mystery for 14 years and required a special Eva piloted by people with a special bond to break. If it wasn't all-encompassing that'd be false advertising.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:04 pm

Gendo says of Willie’s action (Misato’s actions of delegating battle tasks, specifically) was that they were “within expectations.”

If Gendo didn’t expect Willie Evas to follow his Unit 13 down there, then what was he expecting? Did he build a lid for the Main Shaft, build some cracks in his lid somewhere, and expect the Willie team to just coincidentally find them? Or did he build an un-breakable lid and just expect Willie’s team to shatter it anyway, reassemble it, then have Unit 13 break it again?

Or was he like, “Willie wouldn’t stop at the chance to follow Unit 13 down the shaft after the lid broke and try to prevent another Impact. Perfect....”

For your consideration, were the ropes that lowered Unit 13 and Mark.09 evert lifted back out of the shaft? No? They weren’t? There’s no scene that shows the ropes going up?

Guess what’s still leading down into the shaft, then? THE ROPES.

Guess how Mari and Asuka got down there? THE ROPES.


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