Episode 16 questions

[movieartman]

1.) the last bit of Shinji's time in the angels shadow when his mother comes to him
'Is this enough?' (What is she asking is enough for him?)
Shot of a young child Shinji holding out a berry? A piece of candy?
'Well that's good for you' (very judgmentaly tonned)
I watched only the English version of this scene
Explain please


2.) at the end Ritsuko, says if Shinji or Rei find out the Eva's secrets they will never forgive us.
Shinji i assume she means his mother being incarnated in to the Eva, but what is she referring to in regards to Rei?
Rei already knows everything about Lilith and all that sense she is the one who takes the lance and Impales her with it, she seems to have some level of awareness that she is a clone hense her line in a later episode 'if I die l, I can be replaced' so yeah what would Rei not forgive them for?

[ElMariachi]

About your first point, one theory was that Yui was actually talking to Leliel : the Angel was trying to communicate with Shinji (taking the form of the little Shinji in the hell train), and understand human thinking and emotions. But he also realized once he absorbed EVA-01 that he was screwed because Yui will never let Shinji die, and somehow Yui let him make his experiment with Shinji, her 'Is this enough?' question was if Leliel got what he wanted, the little boy holding the berry/candy being actually Leliel symbolically holding out its core for Yui to destroy it as a mean to answer by the affirmative and accept his defeat.

About your second point, it was never clear if Rei II knew that she had Lilith's soul, it's possible that she recovered her memories once she died with EVA-00(which is speculated to hold another piece of Lilith's soul), and that what Ritsuko feared was that Rei turn against Gendo if she learns about the whole Lilith deal, fear which were sound since Rei III completely rejected Gendo.

[Bagheera]

Rei would presumably be as disturbed as anyone by the notion of using human souls to animate the Evas. And of course, the effect of the news on Shinji would likewise upset her.

[NemZ]

the little boy holding the berry/candy being actually Leliel symbolically holding out its core for Yui to destroy it as a mean to answer by the affirmative and accept his defeat.

First I've heard of this idea, but it's very interesting. Rewatching the whole encounter it's hard to tell what Little Shinji (presumably the angel) is just regurgitating from Shinji's mind and what it's saying for itself, but the whole "Humans cannot live by forming your happy moments into a kind of rosary. In particular, I cannot." does seem like potentially the angel speaking and accepting death without a fight. Considering that Lilliel, like Arael later, makes no attempt to actually reach terminal dogma and seems instead focused solely on understanding their enemy I do have to wonder if the angel was just as lost and confused by this world as any of the human charecters. I also have an irrational urge to paint her as grieving for Ramiel-kun.

Perhaps a better question is that if interpretation is true, why didn't Yui eat Lilliel's core when it was offered up in this way? If that was the plan this seems like a perfect opportunity for her to get some S2 goodness with much less hassle then eating Zeruel's face.

[Kendrix]

1.) the last bit of Shinji's time in the angels shadow when his mother comes to him
'Is this enough?' (What is she asking is enough for him?)

Enough reason to go on living.

Just before he passes out, he laments how he's all alone, presumably wishing he could be with his friends and co-workers.

The next image is probably just a random memory of Shinj's, among the lines, "Look mommy, look what I found!" probably mirroring how he also found something 'pretty' or 'precious' in the present - Not a pretty shiny marble, but the people who unexpectedly appreciate his survival after he just spent the entire mindfuck scene agonizing about wether anyone even cares about him.
Misato hug! Rei cuteness! Even Asuka turned up to visit him.

I didn't really percieve Yui's phrase as 'judementally toned', more sth like, "Ah, it's good you found something, so do you mind if the two of us get the fuck out of here?"
If you go by the theory that the pilot also play a certain role in a berserk, you might add that he needed to really, really want to get out before Yui could interfere (which, when you think of it, explains why she didn't interrupt the 'slow suffocation spectacle' any earlier)
Either way, she's being pretty ambivalent, but I guess that's what happens if you get raised in a cult/indoctrinated into its deterministic mindset and then come to believe your kid is some sort of messiah or indigo mutant....

Also, that mable-memory might possibly be the concrete occasion from which this 'hazy memory' image of Yui comes from that we always see in Shinji' mindtrips. She seems bent forward in it, presumably so her face will be closer to Baby!Shinji's line of sight...

Although the manga has its own idea of where that came from. ("Promise me you will save the world, baby!" "Nani?" That's a pretty weird/scary thing to say to a three year old. )

2.) at the end Ritsuko, says if Shinji or Rei find out the Eva's secrets they will never forgive us.
Shinji i assume she means his mother being incarnated in to the Eva, but what is she referring to in regards to Rei?

Hm. We don't know exactly how much she knows about he EVAs or her origins, but ep 22 suggests she at least partially knows about the souls.

Then again, maybe Ritsuko doesn't know how much Rei knows. Or assumes her to be more scary/ of a liability than she really is.

Another possibility i that she was speaking of the pilots, generally, and just doesn't mention Asuka because Gendo doesn't really care about her.

[Rei IV]

Considering that Lilliel, like Arael later, makes no attempt to actually reach terminal dogma and seems instead focused solely on understanding their enemy I do have to wonder if the angel was just as lost and confused by this world as any of the human charecters. I also have an irrational urge to paint her as grieving for Ramiel-kun.

It would make the Angels much more "human", I admit. With Leliel and even Armisael, we see as the Angels genuinely having curiosity with the human pilots they're confronting, Shinji and Rei respectively. Both of the aforementioned pilots didn't' seem have issues engaging with the "enemy", either. Contrast this with Arael and Asuka were while the Angel maybe trying to communicate (if you want to call it that), she makes it clear of the emotionally devastating and traumatic impact it has and does not want it prying into her painful memories nor doesn't want to engage with it either.

The Angels were able to help the pilots in some twisted way, at least the first two. With Shinji, he learned something about himself, so did Rei but ended up dying but for Asuka, it destroyed her psyche and was the final nail in the coffin for her spiral downhill.

[ElMariachi]

Perhaps a better question is that if interpretation is true, why didn't Yui eat Lilliel's core when it was offered up in this way? If that was the plan this seems like a perfect opportunity for her to get some S2 goodness with much less hassle then eating Zeruel's face.

Like I said, it's symbolic : Yui would had gotten out of it whether Leliel wanted it or not, but she asked him if he got enough of what he wanted, and that scene was Leliel's way to say yes.

Or maybe since Shinji was at the very brink of death, she simply didn't had enough time to eat Leliel's core and save Shinji.

[Doublegee]

Rei would presumably be as disturbed as anyone by the notion of using human souls to animate the Evas.

Why? She's not someone whose jimmies are easily rustled.

[Kendrix]

I'm not sure if Arael really meant to attack, or wether it just didn't get the damage it was doing/ the concept of "keep out!"

The other angels appeared to the children by taking their shapes. So perhaps the little girl with the dollface later in the DC sequence was actually a representation of Arael, mixed with/utilizing Asuka's idea of herself, a lot like Leliel did. (Leliel talks about "the Shinnji Ikari's in other people's heads" in its attempt to comprehend Lillim social interactions. Perhaps you could discribe the Mini!Shinji in the sequence as, "The Shinji Ikari in Leliel's perception")
She asks, "Are you lonely?" etc. so yeah, how deliberate was it.

The realization the kids had were mostly incidental side effects of having their heads probed (and reassy, Asuka's experience can be discribed as "insights" as well - she just didn't like the conclusions/put up heavy resistance to haven those memories and feelings dragged up; She really - quite understandably - didn't want to see any of these things. ) - Armisael was basically taunting Rei.


It also needs to be pointed out that the e 16 experience wasn't exactly harmless - in the next ep, Shinji's noted to have a significant drop in his synch ratio.




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Personally, I think the angels were genuinely curious, allthough they may have proceeded to kill the humans later once they got their info.

Kind of mirroring how among the Lillim, there are those who just want the angels dead, like Misato, those who are simply pragmatic about their survival, like Asuka, and people like Shinji who are curious about the angels and even feels hesitant to destroy Kaworu in the end.

The humans gradually try to understand the angel' with science; The ange's do the same with ATF magic, and in the end, Yin and Yang become closer to each other in form before finally joining to return to their undivided initial state.
Or something like that.
Even though Kaworu has been around for way longer/ probably "hatched" before the others, he seems like the cumulation/pinnacle of this developement where the angels first start adapting to the humans, then assimilate/merge (Bardiel, Ireul) and finally try/reach contact.