"Rebuild of Evangelion"

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Postby Ornette » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:40 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That should mean changing the text isn't a problem, right? Since it will redirect and all, I mean.

Changing the text in the page's title, only, isn't a problem.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:20 am

Soooo... do I change back the "New Theatrical Edition" to "Rebuild of Evangelion" in the pages of the wiki or not?
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:36 am

If both terms are in the metadata, that would help make it less critical. After all, regardless of what's official, people will tend to use what it's commonly called. It doesn't help that each film has at least two numbers (3.0, 3.33), with no consistency on whether those are used strictly for the versions, and which to use generically - not to mention the use (in the forum at least) of Jo, Ha, Q, Break etc.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:19 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Soooo... do I change back the "New Theatrical Edition" to "Rebuild of Evangelion" in the pages of the wiki or not?

Didn't know this was changed, and looking at some of the pages, "Rebuild" isn't mentioned in them anymore. Seeing as how "Evangelion New Theatrical Edition" is still a paltry 60k worth of results on Google vs "Rebuild of Evangelion"'s 11 million, I'm inclined to say to change it back.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:23 am

Can't we just tag the pages "Rebuild of Evangelion" somehow, so that search results will catch them, without mucking up the actual text? I really dislike the notion of intentionally putting erroneous information in the pages just because it's popular. There's gotta be a way to direct search queries appropriately while still being accurate!
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:23 am

Very well boss. :salute:
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Postby Ornette » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:44 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Can't we just tag the pages "Rebuild of Evangelion" somehow, so that search results will catch them, without mucking up the actual text? I really dislike the notion of intentionally putting erroneous information in the pages just because it's popular. There's gotta be a way to direct search queries appropriately while still being accurate!

"Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition" isn't any more accurate than "Evangelion: New Movie Version" or "Evangelion: The New Movie Series". There's no official English localization of what the new set of movies are called, and Funimation just names the specific movies "Evangelion #.##". They can get away with that since when their site simply says "Evangelion", you know they're not referring to the original series since they don't carry or are associated with it. "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition" is a translation (one of many possible ones) of what it's being referred to in Japanese. So I can see that it is a more accurate translation than "Rebuild of Evangelion", but is it more accurate as far as what it's actually called? For years now, if you take "ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版" and plug it into robo online translators, it actually translates it to "Rebuild of Evangelion" (I actually just tried this the other way around, and Google translates "Rebuild of Evangelion" to "ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版"). Translation isn't accurate at all, but is the meaning more accurate? Seeing as how the rest of the Anglosphere is treating it, I'd say that it is. Practically nobody refers to the new movies as "Evangelion New Theatrical Edition".

There is literally going to be people who sees sections of the wiki labeled "New Theatical Edition" and they're not going to know what that means.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:44 am

View Original PostOrnette wrote:"Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition" isn't any more accurate than "Evangelion: New Movie Version" or "Evangelion: The New Movie Series". There's no official English localization of what the new set of movies are called, and Funimation just names the specific movies "Evangelion #.##".


As noted upthread the "official" name, to the extent it can be called that, is "Evangelion: New Theatrical", written in context as "the Evangelion: New Theatrical series." This is how the movies are referenced in the Khara calendars, which are official works.

There is literally going to be people who sees sections of the wiki labeled "New Theatical Edition" and they're not going to know what that means.


I understand that that's a problem, but I think we should find ways around it rather than running with misinformation for the sake of convenience. Perhaps something like:

Evangelion 1.0: You Are (Not) Alone is the first film in the Evangelion: New Theatrical movie series, widely known as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan. It premiered in Japan on September 1st, 2007.

and

The Evangelion: New Theatrical series (ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版 Evangelion Shin Gekijōban?, lit. "Evangelion New Theatrical Version", widely referred to as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan) is a series of four movies by the creators of Neon Genesis Evangelion, which form an alternate retelling of the original TV series. The Evangelion: New Theatrical series constitutes a separate continuity from the continuity of the original TV series and associated movies, Evangelion: Death and Rebirth and The End of Evangelion. The first film in the series was released in Japan on September 1st, 2007; the second on June 27, 2009; the third was released on November 17, 2012; the final movie was originally slated for 2013 but the date has been removed.

This is accurate, but I think it would generate the desired hits and redirects. Am I correct on this point?
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:14 am

Bags, did you even read the rest of what Ornette posted?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:30 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Bags, did you even read the rest of what Ornette posted?


Yes, I did. But, frankly, the fact a usage is popular is no excuse for a reference work perpetuating misinformation. Reichu brought up a comparison to the Beatles' ninth album in another discussion, and it's a good one. The suggested edits I provided above are meant to acknowledge the use of "Rebuild of Evangelion" in similar fashion. New users will navigate to the page, be confused for a bit, read the part about "widely known as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan", and be enlightened. That would seem to address all concerns presented thus far as long as the pages come up as search engine hits for "Rebuild of Evangelion".

We have an official title. We should be using it.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:56 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:We have an official title. We should be using it.


Actually, we don't.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:59 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Reichu brought up a comparison to the Beatles' ninth album in another discussion, and it's a good one.

(OT) I know that's the usual story - but at the time (I bought it on the day of release) I saw it as having no title, the name on the front simply being that of the performers, as would typically be there with the title if there was one!
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Postby Ornette » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:31 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I understand that that's a problem, but I think we should find ways around it rather than running with misinformation for the sake of convenience. Perhaps something like:

Evangelion 1.0: You Are (Not) Alone is the first film in the Evangelion: New Theatrical movie series, widely known as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan. It premiered in Japan on September 1st, 2007.

and

The Evangelion: New Theatrical series (ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版 Evangelion Shin Gekijōban?, lit. "Evangelion New Theatrical Version", widely referred to as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan) is a series of four movies by the creators of Neon Genesis Evangelion, which form an alternate retelling of the original TV series. The Evangelion: New Theatrical series constitutes a separate continuity from the continuity of the original TV series and associated movies, Evangelion: Death and Rebirth and The End of Evangelion. The first film in the series was released in Japan on September 1st, 2007; the second on June 27, 2009; the third was released on November 17, 2012; the final movie was originally slated for 2013 but the date has been removed.

This is accurate, but I think it would generate the desired hits and redirects. Am I correct on this point?

Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with this. I'm all for listing it this way. (The bigger problem is that there's a half dozen variations of "New Movie/Theatrical Edition/Version/Series" all over the wiki). But how do you handle page headings? Section headings? Templates? Info boxes? Categories? These are all things that need to be short and concise, and "Evangelion: New Theatrical series (ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版 Evangelion Shin Gekijōban?, lit. "Evangelion New Theatrical Version", widely referred to as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan)" is unacceptiable. Like 5 or 6 words max is what we can use. We simply can't put "Also referred to by the entire rest of the internet as "Rebuild of Evangelion"" everywhere. And really, it may not be accurate but it's the vernacular now. No amount of "but it's not really official" will change that.

And I'm not joking about the "entire rest of the internet" thing. Do a search for "Evangelion New Theatrical Edition", and remove all the pages that also have "Rebuild of Evangelion" on it, and you're left with 3,200 results. A lot of them are from the same handful of sites or descriptions from pictures on flickr. Again, I'm not against adding that it's really literally translated as "Evangelion New Theatrical Edition" or whatever of the other 4 or 5 variations, but when it's over 11 million strong vs a very weak 3,200, given the choice of only one of the two, I'm going to always favor "Rebuild of Evangelion" pretty much every time.
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Postby Stryker » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:43 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:remove all the pages that also have "Rebuild of Evangelion" on it, and you're left with 3,200 results.


Given that Evageeks is an insignificant fraction of the internet, I wonder how many of the results with Rebuild of Evangelion on it are from Evageeks, or have been using such a term because of Evageeks. Evageeks is not the influential of anime forums, but it would be a mistake to believe that the wiki is not often used. Hell, if you look up "Rebuild of Evangelion", this wiki is second highest result, right behind the wikipedia article on it (which should be noted to feature the Japanese, 'official' title in the first sentence).
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:54 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with this. I'm all for listing it this way. (The bigger problem is that there's a half dozen variations of "New Movie/Theatrical Edition/Version/Series" all over the wiki). But how do you handle page headings? Section headings? Templates? Info boxes? Categories? These are all things that need to be short and concise, and "Evangelion: New Theatrical series (ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版 Evangelion Shin Gekijōban?, lit. "Evangelion New Theatrical Version", widely referred to as "Rebuild of Evangelion" outside of Japan)" is unacceptiable. Like 5 or 6 words max is what we can use. We simply can't put "Also referred to by the entire rest of the internet as "Rebuild of Evangelion"" everywhere. And really, it may not be accurate but it's the vernacular now. No amount of "but it's not really official" will change that.


This is what I don't understand. You talked about page hits before, but as I understand it the phrase just has to be on the page to generate a hit. Why can't we use "Evangelion: New Theatrical series" for the page/section headings, templates, info boxes, categories, and the like? How do they interact with search engines and page hits?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:59 pm

The forum's unconditional acceptance of "Rebuild of Evangelion" long since the point we knew it was wrong (years ago) no doubt plays into perpetuating its widespread acceptability. If the #1 English-speaking Evangelion community on the Internet uses it, it must be okay. I think this is what's called a positive feedback loop.

Ornette: There being three thousand different translations for "Evangelion Shingekijouban" is no longer germane to the conversation, because, as stated, there is now a version rendered by khara's in-house translator, as close to the source as we can get. We use that, plain and simple. A simple footnote on the Wiki would suffice to explain why it is the "correct" version.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:04 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:This is what I don't understand. You talked about page hits before, but as I understand it the phrase just has to be on the page to generate a hit. Why can't we use "Evangelion: New Theatrical series" for the page/section headings, templates, info boxes, categories, and the like? How do they interact with search engines and page hits?

Please understand that my kung fu is weak when it comes to internet architecture and such. When I say I don't understand it's because I really don't understand, not because I'm trying to be argumentative.

Those are part of the infrastructure and in the case of categories or templates, a way to automatically organize things. It kind of defeats the purpose of its utility and convenience if everytime it gets used, you had to edit the page's content to also include "oh btw, also called Rebuild". These are things get get included sometimes without the knowledge of an editor, or sometimes by a different editor, or sometimes included as a sub-template. As far as page or section headings, in the case of ElMariachi's edits, some of those pages don't ever include "Rebuild" in it except for a section of the article that includes a relevant bit concerning the new movies. It'll read poorly if a section was written:

A made up example wrote:In the New Theatrical Edition

(Note: the name of the movie is also referred to as "Rebuild of Evangelion")

The S-DAT's appearance differs when blah blah blah


because the section isn't about the movie, but about the subject in the article, it just reads weird. It also reads especially weird when you have that in the 50 or so pages (probably more) that the subheading appears in.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:12 pm

Right, but why bother with it there at all? I mean, isn't the important part making sure people get to the main pages for the new films, that they come up on search results when looking around? Why does it matter if the S-Dat page has Rebuild on it at all? If the new sections have links to the main ENT page that should be enough, shouldn't it? I do realize that people might arrive at pages through all manner of routes, but as long as they get directed to the main page at some point I don't see how there's any room for confusion on the issue.
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:21 pm

Since I didn't clarify what I said back here on page 1:

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:The pages for Eva 1.0, etc proper do use the official title (Funimation's translated it at least 2 different ways and either way works) and refer to Rebuild of Evangelion as the making of special (that's where the name is used) whenever possible.


This was mentioned elsewhere, so I'll post it here for reference:

From 2010 wrote:The 1.01 booklet by Funimation refer to the new movies as "New Theatrical Edition" where applicable. Jo/1.0's Japanese title is translated as "Evangelion New Theatrical Edition: Prelude".

HOWEVER, the 1.11 booklet in the same section (Introduction) refers to the film as "Evangelion:1.0 You Are (Not) Alone" instead. Interesting that Funimation swapped the translated Japanese title for the English/International one. Maybe they swapped one title for another to differentiate their 1.01 and 1.11 releases or something? And Funimaton's 2.22 release still uses "New Theatrical Edition".

The term "Rebuild" is used in the booklets referring to the films as a remake, or discussing the "Rebuild of Evangelion" making of feature (where that term is officially used).


Since Funimation uses "New Theatrical Edition" as the official translation (again, it can be translated in different ways), that's the one we should keep on using when we refer to the name on the forums/etc, I think.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:22 pm

Can't we just made a disambiguation page stating why we call NTE Rebuild? Then we can change all the pages to the google hitter, while keeping the original meaning somewhere on the wiki.


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