The Possibility of Mari Not Being 1 Person

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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The Possibility of Mari Not Being 1 Person

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Postby unitM » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:50 pm

Disclaimer: I know that what I am going to suggest is not substantiated and is also a big instance of the "correlation ≠ causation." In other words: yes, this thread is a big jump to a conclusion. It is a big speculation.

This idea popped into my head last night.

Image

Throughout the NGE series, Shinji basically has 3 solid relationships with women. Those women are Misato, Rei, and Asuka.

Image
When Shinji was in an Instrumental state(EoE), these three women are also the three people that helped him affirm his identity and eventually "wake up" from the state.

Image
This image of Misato, Rei, and Asuka overlayed over one another popped up once or twice in the Instrumentality campaign. It popped up because Instrumentality is the combination of all souls. This was reaffirmed when Asuka harassed Shinji about him jerking off over her comatose body, of Shinji watching Misato take it from Kaji, etc.

However, there is also a possibility that they all left Instrumentality, not only as the individual souls that they are, but as one soul. This could be perhaps due to Shinji's wishes or just due to the premature ending of Instrumentality. That soul could be Mari's.

At the end of EoE, you'll notice that there are symbols of Misato, Rei, and Asuka.
  • Misato's cross is shown to be pinned up
  • Rei is shown to be floating above the red sea
  • Asuka is choked tfo
This is likely based on Shinji's will to have them all "spit back out." There is a chance that Shinji has mistakenly spit out a combination of the three by mistake.
[/list]

Image
I know this image has popped up in the past but let's examine it from this point of view. We have Yui(Rei) and Asuka's mum, who happens to be wearing glasses that bear a striking similarity to Mari's glasses. So we have the 2/3 characters I've described from above in here, assuming that the glasses are an important representation.

Mari expresses a number of affectionate moments with Misato, Rei, and Asuka as well.
  • Despite Mari being affiliated with SEELE, in Q she's on Misato's team. It appears Misato is opposed to NERV and SEELE in this movie. Further, Mari seems to have an idea of SEELE's goals throughout NTE... yet she still sticks with Misato.
  • Mari and Asuka bond well on a number of occasions. Mari also has no issue with the intricacies of Asuka's Eva, and even mentions that it smells nice.
  • Rei throws Mari backwards to avoid the N3 explosion Rei sets off in 2.

    There is also the possibility that, of course, Asuka's mum's soul was pushed into Mari instead of Asuka's unit's core this time around. Asuka doesn't seem to show any powerful sync ratio throughout the series, nor has she mentioned her mommy issues yet. However, Mari pilot's Asuka's eva nicely, compliments it, and even removes the limiters on it, something we haven't seen throughout the series. Mari is seen wearing Asuka's mum's glasses and they only crack when Mari goes beast mode in Asuka's unit. While Asuka has the brawn of the series, perhaps Mari inherited the majority of the smiles of Asuka's mom. Or perhaps it could be an extension of the SDAT player theory, wherein Asuka's mom is contained in Mari's glasses(which they both shared).

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:05 pm

There was a crazy theory during 2.0's release that instead of Mari, Asuka, and Rei all being clones (the "nami" naming scheme), soul-splitting happened between Mari and Asuka. Asuka became Shikinami and Mari became Soryu but together they're 2 halves of the same person. :kaos_sick:

Although it was batshit insane, I remember liking it quite a bit.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:40 pm

I can't work for a number of reasons :

1/ We don't have any idea of who the glasses wearing woman in the photography is. Speculation ranged from Asuka's mom to Mari before being rejuvenated by a Curse of Eva to just a random scientist.

2/ Asuka came back whole at the end of EoE, so she can't be part of that amalgam you talked about

3/ Misato is present in Rebuild, and her own person

4/ Sequel Theory

Also, even though there aren't any comparison of synchronization in Rebuild, what Mari did in 2.0 is something Asuka could had also pulled off : she's indubitably a superb pilot, look at all the acrobatic maneuver she did with her EVA-02 against Clockiel.
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Postby artesox » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:47 pm

Image

I find this little lady here to be a genial detail of 3.33. They placed a woman that looked like both Asuka and Mari close to Yui and simply created one of the biggest speculation fuels of 3.33.

Now about this theory, I don't find it convincing, sorry. I don't think Mari embodies the fusion of Asuka, Rei and Misato but is actually the exact opposite of those three.

I find it funny however that everyone seems to have some crazy theory about Mari, if anything at least her addition to Rebuild created a lot of speculation. :lol:

My personal crazy theory? Woman in the photo is Mama Makinami and Gendo did the same thing he did to Naoko and Ritsuko back in NGE to her, except this relation resulted in a certain bespectacled offspring.

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:05 pm

This is really so random, I don't believe it.

The "Amalgam" was already disproven back in EoE/the one thing besides the "Misato killed Kaji" theory the authors found it so repulsive they actually issues a statement on it.

So why would they do it now?

Also, one thing we do know for sure about Mari, is that she comes, in some way, from Britain, which was taken into account in her character design and choice of impromptu wartime refreshment.

Neither Misato, nor Asuka, nor Rei are particularly British.


Mari is seen wearing Asuka's mum's glasses and they only crack when Mari goes beast mode in Asuka's unit.


No; Mari's 2.0 glasses have a thicker, more curvy plastic frame. Mystery barrette woman's are a lot thinner.

Despite Mari being affiliated with SEELE, in Q she's on Misato's team. It appears Misato is opposed to NERV and SEELE in this movie. Further, Mari seems to have an idea of SEELE's goals throughout NTE... yet she still sticks with Misato.


Where do you get that she's affiliated with SEELE? We never learned who she was working for (as they're probably dead and Mari considers herself independent anyway), but if she was cooperating with Kaji, wouldn't it make sense that he would tell her to stick with Misato if something goes wrong?
She could have gotten her info from just anywhere (including her mom, whom we know was an affiliate of Yui's), that doesn't mean she works with, much less supports them.

Mari and Misato are probably a less than compatible combination, because Mari being more solitary and not sharing everything she knows, but they've had 14 years to get acclimatized, so it's no wonder they work together.

Rei throws Mari backwards to avoid the N3 explosion Rei sets off in 2


Because Rei is not an asshole wo would let someone in a half-broken EVA stand in the way of an explosion if she can help it? Also, Mari helped her with something that was important to Rei (her attempt at killing Zeruel without Shinji needing to get involved).

What is interesting is that Mari has this huge expression of shock or surprise when she's thrown to safety. It's easily enough explained by the intensity of the battle, but she could also have recognized Rei or her voice from somewhere. (" your original was way friendlier" - assuming she didn't man Rei II and this very battle with that, and simply didn't know she was already the second clone.)
[*]Mari and Asuka bond well on a number of occasions. Mari also has no issue with the intricacies of Asuka's Eva, and even mentions that it smells nice.


It's not her first time in an EVA, and she already proved herself pretty adaptive in that regard (Her battle in EVA 05 is explicitly noted to be her debut)
And commenting on ppls smells is just something she does. There's no sighn that she recognizes it (Imagine that first meeting. *sniff, sniff* You must me the pilot of EVA 02! *insert irritated Asuka reaction here*) I guess it could be seen as an indication that she would find the owner of the smell just as agreeable, but not much more.

They obviously DO become friends, but that doesn't require explanations beyond spending much time together and having compatible personalites.

Interestingly, both take up a little of the other person' attributes over the timeskip:
Mari, who used to rely on brute force before, has now aquired vast technical skill (four shots, four dead nemesis series...) which used to be Asuka's forte, while Asuka has learned to use beast mode, and also has this cap that is an obvious present (cat ears, also the buttons, one of which is too humorous for gritty killer Asuka, and the other having been identified as a a british military emblem thing in the "things you noticed" thread.)

They probably did a lot of training together.
That said, the way they use those "taken" attributes is still very much their own, Asuka doesn't "revel" in beast mode like Mari does, it's just a quick and pragmatic decision she makes to end the fight quickly, also, unlike Asuka's flashy novel-like weapons like crossbows and polearms, Mari becoming a sniper its quite well with her generally detached attitude.

Why does she have to be some weird plot device thing just because she's the new girl on the block? Can't she be a character of her own with a story of her own like everyone else?


View Original Postartesox wrote:

I find this little lady here to be a genial detail of 3.33. They placed a woman that looked like both Asuka and Mari close to Yui and simply created one of the biggest speculation fuels of 3.33.


While it's nice that Anno did take himself the time to give us at least ome tiny tidbit of backstory, I don't really see the similarity to Asuka, and while they've altered the ocassional character name, the overall desighns stayed mostly the same. This chick doesn't resemble neither Anime! nor Manga!Kyoko, the only possible similarity to Asuka is having her hair tied back, which is a pretty common thing for people to do.

It's already an established convention that at least the "human" pilots are all the children of female GEHIRN scientists who mysteriously died; So that Mari's mom also falls into that scheme isn't all that unexpected. The man with the darker hair behind them could be Mr. Illustrious.


Also, Yui looks so batshit sinister in that pick, something about her grin, and the pink lipgloss.
And while classic!Shinji got to look somewhat happy in his pre-experiment flashback, Rebuild!Shinji already looks pretty unhappy. Probably just because of all of mommies colleagues swarming around him, but still.
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Postby Ray » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:10 pm

I'm almost 100% convinced that the woman with the glasses is Mari.

But if she was, you'd think she would have mentioned it at some point. Even a throwaway line like "You were so much cuter back then." would have been sufficient.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:26 pm

Just to precise, official character relationship charts(I think SDD remembers in which magazine it was published) says that Mari is Kaji's subordinate in 2.0, so since Kaji was a spy opposing both Gendo and SEELE, then Mari definitively isn't affiliated to SEELE, or if she's, it's only officially and she's actually working against them, and her true affiliation lies with the same organization backing up Kaji.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:49 pm

I always thought it was Asuka’s mom redesigned. I mean, we never see her in NTE, and (I think) it’s clear that Asuka had a mom. And that lady does have the red hair and the hair clips, visually tying her to Asuka’s physical form. The glasses are just because she’s older and her eyes are growing weaker, or to visually suggest that she’s a smarty-pants scientist or something like Yui was.

(And never really got a good look at her in NGE either. She always looked like Yui slightly repurposed in the hospital shots in Ep. 22, and the shot of her in EoE is too sketchy and impressionistic for it to be a clear representation of anybody. This might be a visual representation of how Asuka remembers her mother, not remembering a clear image of her because she’s either constantly trying to block those memories, or her brain naturally blocked specific memories due to their unpleasantness.)

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Postby unitM » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:08 pm

@ElMariachi You just love straight hating on my topics don't you? :lol: :D

On topic though, and in response to you, I know that technically there wouldn't have been a "split" of souls. The idea was that there would just be a combination of them, completely independent of Misato, Asuka, and Rei.

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Postby Ray » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:08 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Just to precise, official character relationship charts(I think SDD remembers in which magazine it was published) says that Mari is Kaji's subordinate in 2.0, so since Kaji was a spy opposing both Gendo and SEELE, then Mari definitively isn't affiliated to SEELE, or if she's, it's only officially and she's actually working against them, and her true affiliation lies with the same organization backing up Kaji.


Maybe "The Curse Of Eva" was a way for her to get away from SEELE and defect. They'd be looking for a Twenty-something year old woman. Not a 14-16 year old girl. She knows more than she's letting on. . . at least I hope she does and wasn't just added for merchandise and fanservice.
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Postby LightDragonman » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:21 pm

Mari is quite an interesting character, and her motives and allegiance are quite mysterious. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if she's working for a different organization and/or has an agenda unlike that of NERV, SEELE, or WILLE.

Personally, I hope she is revealed to be a Revolver Ocelot-like character in FINAL. Maybe even have her be revealed to have actually been loyal to Yui's original plan all along. :tongue: :wink:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:23 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Just to precise, official character relationship charts(I think SSD remembers in which magazine it was published) says that Mari is Kaji's subordinate in 2.0, so since Kaji was a spy opposing both Gendo and SEELE


Name typo fixed. :wink:

I'm assuming the source is at the very least semi-official since it's from Evangelion: Chronicle.

Here's the Points of Interest rundown:

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Alright! Thanks 1731!

Points of interest from the character diagram chart:
-Mari is explicitly Kaji's subordinate and he is her authority
-Yes, Hikari and Asuka are officially friends
-Toji and Kensuke are 'close friends' and they are each 'close friends' with Shinji.
-Maya reveres Ritsuko
-"Is Rei yearning for Shinji?"
-Asuka and Mari are interested in Shinji
-Shinji is interested in Asuka and Rei
-there is no line showing Shinji's anything for Mari
-Gendo 'acts obediently' to Seele01 (yeah right)
-"Does Gendo have deep affection for Rei?"
-"Does Kaworu know Shinji?"
-no link was included between Kaji and Asuka or Kaji and Shinji at all. Talk about subcharacter. I guess there just wasn't room. :(
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:59 am

@ SSD : Yep, that's the one!

View Original PostunitM wrote:@ElMariachi You just love straight hating on my topics don't you? :lol: :D

On topic though, and in response to you, I know that technically there wouldn't have been a "split" of souls. The idea was that there would just be a combination of them, completely independent of Misato, Asuka, and Rei.

Don't worry, I have nothing personal against you, it's just my natural acidic French side speaking! :lol:

But back on topic : how would a something being at the same time a combination and completely independent of Misato, Asuka, and Rei be possible?
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Postby unitM » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:30 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:@ SSD : Yep, that's the one!


Don't worry, I have nothing personal against you, it's just my natural acidic French side speaking! :lol:

But back on topic : how would a something being at the same time a combination and completely independent of Misato, Asuka, and Rei be possible?
It wouldn't be. But we're talking about an abrupt end to Instrumentality here. It's only a possibility.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:53 am

^
But again, that theory implies the Sequel Theory, which holds less and less water as time and movies passes.(to not confuse with the Time Loop Theory, where Kaworu comes back in time, but is contained in the Rebuild universe)
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Postby unitM » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:35 am

... sequel theory is being discredited? That's hilarious. If anything, sequel theory is showing more use as time passes... don't know where you're getting otherwise. Not to mention that sequel and time loop theory don't have to be mutually exclusive.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:57 am

NTE is a sequel to NGE’s EoTV/EoE/D&R/“Director’’s Cuts”/Originally Aired episodes in as much as Superman Returns was a sequel to Superman III/Superman IV: Quest for Peace/Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:12 pm

All this hypothesizing is really cute... until 4.0 comes out & Mari will remain just a spunky British girl who loves piloting an Eva & fans start attacking her again for being "a betrayal of Eva" or whatever.

I don't expect much of Mari to be revealed in the last film. My best guess is she'll maybe have one last scene with Shinji where she tells him "to cheer up" & then will die in a glorious action scene.

With fan service of course.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:30 pm

^Yeah, I suppose there's nothing to do but wait for Final...in any case, this theory doesn't strike me as particularly likely to me. It's probably because it relies on the sequel theory, which I am not a proponent of, but also because even if the sequel theory was proved accurate, there is still no evidence that the 'Amalgam' of all 3 girls lasted beyond that one scene; furthermore, you seem to be overlooking the fact that there's no sign or trace of any other living being other than Shinji and Asuka returning after EoE. We are told more may return in the future if they want to, but Asuka is the only one who has chosen to return to flesh. There's a chance that the Mari-Amalgam soul was still lost in the Sea of LCL somewhere, but if the amalgamation was created by Shinji's will for them all the get out of Instrumentality, then surely it would have left with him, instead of just Asuka. Soul-splitting also seems a bit unlikely to me, as the only person we know of who has had their soul split (Kyoko) was a terrible wreck after said soul-splitting, and it's unlikely that an individual comprised of fractured pieces of a soul would be much more stable (which can possibly be seen in the two contrasting 'voices' of Eva-02 in EoE).
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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:03 pm

Sent the entire derailed section off to the Graveyard.
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