Puella Magi Madoka Magika [3]

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:46 pm

In the series, Homura is trying to prevent Madoka from becoming a witch. However, in all the repeats she fails, her only success being in winding back to have another go. However, as a result, Madoka is finally able to find her own way to save herself and, what's more, all other magical girls from becoming witches - in the end Homura's tactic has produced the end result, even if not in the form expected.

The only way that Rebellion can be seen to stand as a worthwhile continuation is to recognise Homura's obsession with saving Madoka as selfish - she just wants to keep Madoka around for herself. In Rebellion, this selfishness comes to the fore and she destroys the previous good end, replacing it with a bad end so that she can have Madoka back for herself.

I'd rather it had been left alone, honestly.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:16 pm

essel: The cake song was a trip. Perhaps the film's sole redeeming quality.

Trying to convince me of Rebellion's supposed merits so soon after I've received its venomous sting is probably not a good idea. Give me a year (or more), and I'll either be beyond caring that the franchise exists or interested in giving the film another shot. Right now my disappointment is very effectively converting the enthusiasm of the eva-rp crowd into active loathing, which isn't doing anyone any good. :p

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Postby esselfortium » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:30 pm

Another thing I love about the cake song, other than the fact that it exists, is one of the staff interviews mentioning that Mami was personally responsible for planning out and forcing the entire wonderfully-preposterous routine upon the other girls.

Also, Sayaka's breakdancing transformation sequence ❤

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:57 pm

What I do not see anybody mentioning is the fact that had Homura allowed Madoka to save her from the Incubators' labyrinth, the Incubators would be able to recognize how Madoka was stopping the decay of magical girls into witches, and then stop Madoka from doing that in order to be able to harvest the energy from decaying soul gems. I won't try to deny that selfishness may have certainly been a part of Homura's motives, but if we are to criticize her motives, then we must examine more than just one of them.

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Postby esselfortium » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:06 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:What I do not see anybody mentioning is the fact that had Homura allowed Madoka to save her from the Incubators' labyrinth, the Incubators would be able to recognize how Madoka was stopping the decay of magical girls into witches, and then stop Madoka from doing that in order to be able to harvest the energy from decaying soul gems. I won't try to deny that selfishness may have certainly been a part of Homura's motives, but if we are to criticize her motives, then we must examine more than just one of them.

I mentioned that in my post :) It's a really crucial point that seems to get missed a lot, so thank you for helping bring some more attention to it here.

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Postby robersora » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:54 pm

When I came to terms, that Urobuchi's idea of getting across a point is to do so in the most convoluted way imaginable I started enjoying his stuff. BUT: One has to question this approach, when even Shinbo's factory (which is successfully visualizing Monogatari, which does more talking than the Gilmore Girls) at full capacity isn't capable to veil the fact that Madoka 3 a horribly convoluted mess for the sole purpose of animating a song about cake.
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Postby Tarnsman » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:21 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:In the series, Homura is trying to prevent Madoka from becoming a witch.


No she's not. She's trying to keep Madoka from dying/turning into a witch/not existing. The first time Madoka doesn't even turn into a witch, she just dies, that's what prompts Homura's wish. It's not until Homura has gone back in time multiple times before Madoka starts turning into a witch.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:What I do not see anybody mentioning is the fact that had Homura allowed Madoka to save her from the Incubators' labyrinth, the Incubators would be able to recognize how Madoka was stopping the decay of magical girls into witches, and then stop Madoka from doing that in order to be able to harvest the energy from decaying soul gems. I won't try to deny that selfishness may have certainly been a part of Homura's motives, but if we are to criticize her motives, then we must examine more than just one of them.


We are given no indication that Homura even thought about that or whether or not Kyubey's plan to capture Madoka would have even worked. Homura was only able to do it because of the despair she had built up. The entire thing is presented as Homura doing it because it will allow her to create a world where Madoka and the other magical girls are happy. Which is in line with what she has been trying to do all along. Her singular purpose for the past twelve and a half years of her life. You can list buttfucking Kyubey over as a positive of Homura's decision to do what she does but it's completely tangential to her motivations for doing it.

Edit: If you want to know where the 12 and half years comes from. At the Nitro Q and A: Urobuchi said Homura went back in time around 100 times. The events of the series begin on March 16 and Walpurgis Night shows up on May 1st. So each loop is roughly a month and a half.
Last edited by Tarnsman on Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby esselfortium » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:33 pm

Right. Her promise to not let Madoka turn into a witch is a separate (though related) thing, on top of the loop she created when she first made her wish "to be the one to protect her".

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:06 pm

View Original PostTarnsman wrote:We are given no indication that Homura even thought about that or whether or not Kyubey's plan to capture Madoka would have even worked.

o rly

You intend to control Madoka, don't you?

Stop! I have to die in this world!

Stop, Madoka!


Also, more evidence against the "She's only doing it because she selfishly wants to see Madoka" theory: in her own words, she wants to create a universe where Madoka will be happy, however misguided or however wrong her idea of "happy" is. Even during the end of the film, we don't see Homura with Madoka. It strikes me as strange that if she did this only to be with Madoka again that she wouldn't spend more time with her.

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Postby Tarnsman » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:13 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:"She's only doing it because she selfishly wants to see Madoka" theory: in her own words, she wants to create a universe where Madoka will be happy, however misguided or however wrong her idea of "happy" is. Even during the end of the film, we don't see Homura with Madoka. It strikes me as strange that if she did this only to be with Madoka again that she wouldn't spend more time with her.


I never said she wanted to be with Madoka. She wants to save her. That's what she did. That's why she grabs her because she sees her opportunity. Her entire speech is about creating a world where Madoka can be happy which is entirely in line with everything she's been about since then. She initially wanted to die in the fake-world because that's how she could best help Madoka, but once she got out and saw a better opportunity she took it. You can call it selfish because she's doing what she wants and not necessarily what Madoka wants and she even admits that also just because she's trying to make one person happy doesn't make her unselfish. It's a very selfish desire. It's about doing what she wants and damn the rest of it.

I'm all for screwing Kyubey over but she did effectively enslave an entire race and force them to fight witches so Madoka could be happy.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:47 pm

I really disliked what the movie did with the Kyubey...

In the series, the Incubators came off as beings with a refreshingly alien outlook, thinking on a universal time scale and truly interested in the big picture. They're not actually evil and are, in fact, beneficent, working toward a universe-spanning greater good. Our species, in comparison, exists on a microcosmic and ephemeral level, and we're unable to truly grasp anything that transcends that. The main characters, being human, are accordingly interested in nothing that exceeds their concept of human existence and purpose. self-interested, and with their limited human perspective understandably view the Incubators as hostile and morally bankrupt. The show smartly compares what Kyubey is doing to humanity's exploitation of other organisms for their own benefit. Intriguingly, the Incubators have the high ground on us, acting not merely in their own species' self-interest but in the interest of all sapient life, present and future.

Arguably the film doesn't render the Incubators' prior characterization null and void, and merely elaborates upon their methods, giving insight into the sort of scientific exploration that's been necessary to gain insight into the problem of fighting entropy. Maybe there's something I missed, though, and they were concretely transformed into the straight-up villains fans have been clamoring for. Whatever exactly Homura did to them with her asspull devil powers -- I wasn't terribly clear on the gobbledygook there, nor what the intended takeaway of that bizarre stinger was -- much of the fan reaction seems to treat this development as fannish wish fulfillment. If that's how it was intended by Urobuchi et al., it's a rather spiteful move and shows very little regard for the material. The lack of conventional (i.e., human) morality makes PMMM's antagonist(s) interesting and different, and far more than conniving, loathsome furballs.

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Postby Defectron » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:21 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
Arguably the film doesn't render the Incubators' prior characterization null and void, and merely elaborates upon their methods, giving insight into the sort of scientific exploration that's been necessary to gain insight into the problem of fighting entropy. Maybe there's something I missed, though, and they were concretely transformed into the straight-up villains fans have been clamoring for. Whatever exactly Homura did to them with her asspull devil powers -- I wasn't terribly clear on the gobbledygook there, nor what the intended takeaway of that bizarre stinger was -- much of the fan reaction seems to treat this development as fannish wish fulfillment. If that's how it was intended by Urobuchi et al., it's a rather spiteful move and shows very little regard for the material. The lack of conventional (i.e., human) morality makes PMMM's antagonist(s) interesting and different, and far more than conniving, loathsome furballs.


The kyubey didn't seem that out of character, to me, I mean why wouldn't they follow up on the stuff Homura told them about the alternate realities if it might make what their doing work better?

As for what it was Homura did, she bullied their race into working for her, which is pretty much the exact same thing I would have done if I was in her shoes. Sounds like a pretty legit plan. Granted I probably wouldn't have been as abusive to them after they were subdued as I'm a firm believer in the evil overlord rules of treating your underlings well so they have no reason to try to rebell, but that aside I would have done the same thing.
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Postby A.T. Fish » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:34 pm

The in-universe explanations for why the movie ended the way it did aren't really the issue. The issue is that the ending is just a rehash of the series' ending, it repeats it and destroys it at the same time.

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Postby Dima » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:48 pm

Madoka Magica 'Concept Movie' Hints at New Work

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-11-26/madoka-magica-concept-movie-hints-at-new-work/.95830

So.... it's happening?
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Postby esselfortium » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:21 pm

View Original PostDima wrote:Madoka Magica 'Concept Movie' Hints at New Work

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-11-26/madoka-magica-concept-movie-hints-at-new-work/.95830

So.... it's happening?

Oh wow! Can't wait to find out more about this!

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:17 am

I hope so. I'm very interested to see where the story is going to go from Rebelling.

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Postby robersora » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:35 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I hope so. I'm very interested to see where the story is going to go from Rebelling.


Maybe Resolve? I'm really looking forward if they manage to convey the simple themes and messages of Meguka in an even more convoluted manner. I mean it has almost reached Kingdom Hearts levels at this point.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:40 am

Hope the ballet/Swan Lake-ish concept movie will be uploaded somewhere if it hasn't been yet!

Hints of Movie 4 or a second series though = Yes please! :drool:
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Postby Dima » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:56 pm

Okay, this is the third edit i am doing because all the previous was inaccurate reports about the concept movie. There are many sources and each one is saying something that doesn't relate to the other. But today there are new/more reports that all agree in terms of what it was shown in that concept movie.

Source
http://sonozaki-shimai.tumblr.com/post/134048597291/summary-of-new-madoka-magica-movies-trailer-at

Summary
- This longs about 4 minutes.
- In first minute, things happen just what we saw in Rebellion. Madoka and Homura talk together about something likes fairy-tales. The image is Madoka performing her ballet, and the Devil clapping her hands at the end of the show.
- Next is like a rush of angry waves.
- Kyouko is exhausting. She’s angry (at?) the cats are being revived by someone’s voice(?).
- Sayaka is able to read witch’s language (the runes), and got captured (as like she was in wraith arc). She (or her dead body?) turns into her witch-form and fights againt the Wraith. Before that, her soul-gem fully got dark.
- It seems Mami and cool-Homura will get another fight.
- This cool-Homura don’t have the earing like what the Devil does. She’s like the normal cool-Homura we’ve known.
- And Nagisa plays a detective game in magical-girl form.
Another information:
- Madoka gets a new magical-girl costume. It’s cute, but exposes her flesh a bit much…
- Super, very cool Mami. She’s like a boss!!

More here
https://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=5717256&postcount=3635
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:48 pm

View Original PostDima wrote:- Sayaka is able to read witch’s language (the runes), and got captured (as like she was in wraith arc). She (or her dead body?) turns into her witch-form and fights againt the Wraith. Before that, her soul-gem fully got dark.

Maybe that's a hint of how the damages Akuma Homura did to the universe: we get a blend of Wraiths with the Witches back?


View Original PostDima wrote:- It seems Mami and cool-Homura will get another fight.

What, turning one (fake) city into a rendition of Syria wasn't enough? :tongue:


View Original PostDima wrote:- Madoka gets a new magical-girl costume. It’s cute, but exposes her flesh a bit much…

Oh god please don't tell me they are taking the Kazumi Magica and Suzune Magica route of turning half of the cast into pedo jailbait!
The series was good in that the costumes were tasteful (well, except Akuma Homura...), please Magica Quartet keep it that way!
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