Music in Chronological Order of Usage Update and Notes

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Music in Chronological Order of Usage Update and Notes

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Postby Sephizim » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:13 pm

For the past few weeks, I have been working tirelessly to update this page of the wiki. Before I got to it, there was only information up until episode 6. Now it includes full information for all 26 episodes, as well as the two movies (sans working links until those cuts are added to the FGC page). While a great deal of this information was ascertained by me obsessively rewatching the series, I did have a few useful resources at my disposal. One was this page, the result of Reichu already having done this same exact thing years ago (no surprise there). Another was this image, which is an LD Insert that appears to list every occurrence of each track included in the series.

Useful as these resources were, I found that what I observed differed from both lists. Included (and spoiler'd for length) I have a full detailing of all of the differences I observed between my list and the other two. Also, I detail some of the specific peculiarities of how I chose to document the music, so that others may debate whether or not my choices are acceptable, or if the popular opinion supports changing it.

So, for a bunch of technical rambling, feel free to read on below the cut!

SPOILER: Show
Differences from the original version of the Music in Chronological Order of Usage page/Reichu's list:
In general, Reichu lists consecutive occurrences of one track in the same row, but to conform to the standards already in place on the wiki page, I have separated them all out. Also, on Reichu's list, every time a song appears in any edition, it is listed as an occurrence across the board, even if that occurrence does not exist in some versions. For instance, in my list, if a version of FMttM appears in a Original episode at one point but not the corresponding Renewal version, and then later appears for the first time in a Renewal episode, it is listed as 1st to correspond with being the first occurrence in the Renewal version. If it also appears in the Original version of the episode as well, it is listed as 1st/2nd, to signify that it is appearing for the first time in Renewal, and the second time in Original. The most complex track for this is "A Fragile Ego Border." It appears in two alternate versions before EoE (once in the NPC version of 22, once in the theatrical version of Death). So, when viewing it in EoE, if the NPC version of 22 and the original version of Death are not counted, it is the track's first appearance. If only one of the two are counted, it is the track's second appearance. And if all three are counted, it is the third occurrence. All that being said, I understand that it is a bit of a confusing way to do things, and if the general consensus is that I should simplify it in the same manner Reichu did, then I will concede to changing it. Other changes of note, on an episode-to-episode basis:

Episode 3:
C-1: Added this one in (was missing from the original version of the wiki page), even though it is brief. Reichu mentioned in the commentary that this occurrence was added for the Renewal version. Until I obtain a pre-Renewal version of the episode to confirm, I'll take her word for it, and list as Renewal only. Also, it was difficult to discern whether or not it is the "without latin perc" version, but after repeated viewings, it seems to be this version over the other.

UPDATE: After checking the pre-Renewal version, the accompanying shot has no music, so the Renewal-only tag stays. (As a side note, I think music was added to connect the idea that the visual being shown is what Kensuke is watching. Without the music it seems a lot more ambiguous).

Episode 7:
Added a third occurrence of B-16 rhythm only. I will be obtaining pre-Renewal versions of the series soon, so once I check those, I'll see if it was a needed revision, or an oversight on Reichu's part.

UPDATE: Yeah, looks like it was just an oversight.

Episode 8:
Reichu lists an occurrence of B-17 rhythm only following the main one, but from start to finish, that track is the main version, and no other music cue plays in the episode until E-6. Again, at a later time, I will check that against pre-Renewal versions.

UPDATE: Interestingly enough, in watching the pre-Renewal version of this episode, the track actually does appear exactly where Reichu lists it, playing as a piece of diegetic music (music audible to the characters) on some sort of radio program in the background. Upon going back to
Renewal, I observed that the new audio mix in this scene renders the radio program barely
audible... but it is still there, with B-17 rhythm only accompanying it. I think the fact that I missed it my first few passes can be excused considering just how close to being completely silent it is. At any rate, I will be adding it to the list.

Episode 10:
Replaced the occurrence of E-9 with the "without intro" version. A minor difference, but the track that plays seems to fade in no earlier than the intro-less version, and since such a track exists on S² Works, I figure it might as well be used here. However, if it comes to light that there is any difference between these two versions of E-9 other than the removal of the intro that makes proves it not to be the version used in the episode, I will correct it.

UPDATE: Now this is interesting. In the Renewal version of this scene, the track E-9 fades in at a point after the "intro" plays. However, in the pre-Renewal version, this track just cuts in randomly near the end of the intro section. (The effect is incredibly jarring, and can definitely understand why they decided to use a fade in effect for Renewal). This version of the track is most definitely not the intro-less version, so I think that is enough of a reason for me to relabel this track as the full version, and not the intro-less version.

Episode 11:
Added an unknown tag for the brief ice-cream-truck-like music that plays while Shinji is on hold, waiting for Gendo to pick up the phone. This is obviously nothing recorded for the show, and may be a common thing in Japan, but since it really falls into the category of music over SFX, I figured I'd include it here. Again, will be checking against pre-Renewal versions once I get those.

UPDATE: Yeah, its the same in both versions. Not too sure why I thought there would be a difference, but it never hurts to be thorough.

Episode 16:
For the life of me, I cannot hear a single occurrence of RAJIO taisou in this episode. It is supposedly playing in the scene where Shinji wakes up in the hospital, but I simply can't hear it. Perhaps it shows up in the pre-Renewal version, but I think I can safely say it does not appear in Renewal at this point.

UPDATE: Okay, the track is DEFINITELY playing in the pre-Renewal version. That much is clear. But no matter how high I turn up my volume, I cannot hear it at all in the Renewal version. Granted, my Renewal version is the US Platinum version, but I doubt they would have altered the music and SF track of the episode like that (and yes, I even checked the dub to see if it was there either. It was not.) So, I'm going to say that this occurance is pre-Renewal only, and will be listing it as such.

Death:
Reichu's list notes that the song Shinji listens to on the train is unknown, but Reichu has since informed be that it is "Full Up Mind" off of GYUU. Listening to the track myself, I have confirmed as much.

Differences from the LD Insert:
While that image has been useful for this process, it is quite full of inaccuracies. I figured I might as well detail them here, for anyone who wishes to use it as a definitive resource.

Episode 3:
LD Insert doesn't include C-1 either, but if that is indeed a change for Renewal, that makes sense.

UPDATE: As mentioned above, yes, it is.

Episode 4:
Doesn't mention any occurrence of "You are the only one" or "Aoi LEGEND" even though both tracks appear twice and all in one scene. The two songs from GYUU are listed for this episode, though.

Episode 5:
Doesn't mention the occurrence of E-5 rhythm only, even though it starts off the episode. Also, it lists the main version of B-16 for this episode instead of the rhythm only version. This won't be the last time it does this, either.

Episode 7:
Perplexingly, it lists that of the three occurrences of B-16 in this episode, two of them are the regular version, while one is the rhythm only version. In fact, all three are the rhythm only version. The full version of "Misato" will actually not appear until episode 12 (which caused me to audibly shout, "Finally!" when I got to this episode during my listening process.)

Episode 8:
Like Reichu, the list notes two occurrences of B-17 rhythm only. However, it also mentions two occurrences of the original version as well. My theory is that perhaps this list takes into consideration the fact that the track "pauses" during the title card, and resumes afterward, and counts this as two separate occurrences. See episode 24 for a similar note (one that nearly made it into my version of the list, too!)

UPDATE: As noted above, the two occurrences of B-17 rhythm only that it lists are, in fact, correct.

Episode 9:
The list mentions a single occurrence of the full version of B-17 in addition to two rhythm only appearances, but all three instances are the rhythm only version, and Reichu agrees with me on that one.

Episode 10:
I almost mislabeled a track because of this one. The list mentions a single occurrence of B-21, full version. I thought the error was that it failed to mention two separate occurrences, and listed it as such. It was only after checking Reichu's list that I realized that the first occurrence is actually the fast tempo version of the track, which the list fails to mention at all. Also, the list (like Reichu) mentions the full version of E-9 as opposed to the intro-less version, which only contributes to the ambiguity of the situation. Additionally, for some reason, there is no mention of E-7 in this episode. There is, however, a mention of B-2, which in actuality doesn't show up until episode 21 (perhaps it confused these two tracks, which are somewhat similar). Finally, we have the first occurrence of the list mentioning a track off of S2 Works that isn't in the episode, E-14. Which is pity, since I'm rather fond of that track (the guitar part sounds like something out of an oldschool Sonic the Hedgehog game.)

Episode 11:
According to the list, the main version of B-14 does not appear in this episode (despite the fact that the track and the episode's title share the same name). Apparently this is a "piano" version of this track. However, no such version appears on S² Works. True, the track that plays in this episode is piano only, but it is also only playing the part of the song that is just piano. It does a similar thing later, listing a version of A-1 that is also only piano. No such track exists on S² Works either. The only thing I noted is that a musical phrase gets repeated one more time than it does in the actual song, which might be the reason for the distinction. If so, the same may hold true for B-14, though I'm not about to go through the episode again to confirm or deny this. (Also, I was hoping the LD Insert might shed some light on the mystery phone music, but alas, it does not).

UPDATE: Listening through this episode again, the version of B-14 that plays in the episode is identical to the normal version. I don't get what the LD Insert is trying to accomplish with this super-specific "piano" thing.

Episode 12:
Strangely, it only lists one occurrence of B-16 (finally in its full version here), even though there is a sizable pause in the middle of when it plays. This kinda ruins that whole "pause theory" from episode 8, huh? Also, another "piano" version that doesn't exist on S2 Works, this time for B-1. Can't recall whether or not just the piano portion was played here and if it was altered in any further way, but once again, I'm not about to go check. Oh, it also says B-10 appears in this episode, when it totally doesn't.

UPDATE: The version of B-1 that plays in this track blatantly contains other instruments other than piano from even the very beginning. I don't really get what's supposed to designate as the "piano" version. Weird.

Episode 15:
The list mentions a track in the second section that only occurs in this episode, which I assume to be the "Wedding March." I'm a bit surprised the list even bothered to mention it, but I guess it was making a serious attempt to be thorough. Sadly, it does not indicate what specific recording of the piece they used for this episode. Oddly, it lists the strings and piano version of B-4 that occurs in this episode as the main version. It does not do this for a another version of B-4 that appears in a later episode, though. It also mentions B-13, but that doesn't appear in this episode (or the entire series).

Episode 16:
The list also mentions RAJIO taisou appearing in this episode. Am I just not hearing it or something?

UPDATE: Nah, just needed to watch the right version.

Episode 17:
The list mentions B-19 (which doesn't appear in this episode) and fails to mention D-7 (which does appear in this episode). With only three music cues in this entire episode, you'd think it would have been an easy one to get right.

Episode 22:
While everything in this episode is right, I find it interesting that it lists the music from The Messiah as two occurrences of a single track labelled "Oratorio (Messiah)". While this is technically correct, it doesn't really serve to distinguish between "Hallelujah" and "Worthy is the Lamb...Amen". The list even refers to "Addition" as the corresponding OST next to the listing, even though they exist as two separate tracks on that album. But I suppose that's just a trifle. Also, I find it especially interesting that it lists the version of A-4 that appears in the NPC scenes in this episode, meaning this list must have come out some time after those episodes were released.

Episode 23:
What I find interesting about this episode is that it lists only one occurrence of E-13, and one occurrence of the "short composition, fast tempo, with piano" version of E-13. This only happens in the Video & LD versions, whereas other versions simply reprise E-13. Apparently, the list considers these versions "canon" as opposed to any other version of the episode.

UPDATE: With my pre-Renewal version, I was able to confirm the use of the alternate version of E-13, which was nice to be able to do. (Also, with this, I have a hard copy of the alternate Reiquarium scene now, which is pretty awesome.)


Episode 24:
Now this is odd. The only piece of music in this episode is the Beethoven piece, which is the only track on the list for episode 24. What's odd is that it lists it as occurring 4(!) times. Now, my list includes two, but I had considered at one point putting in three. My reasoning for this was that after Kaworu opens the door to Terminal Dogma, the music pauses, and then resumes from a later point. I originally felt that was enough to warrant two separate entries, but when I thought about it more, it really only counts as a single arrangement of one track, so I decided to leave it as one. Perhaps the list does not, going along with the pause theory from episode 8 (that episode 12 also disproves). The other occurrence of the track is when Shinji listens to it on his SDAT while waiting for Kaworu, so then when is the fourth? Honestly, I think it lists a fourth occurrence because in the scene where it plays on his SDAT, it is not heard for a few frames, until Shinji removes his headphones. But since it continues playing as it would have, I think it would be silly to list that as a completely separate occurrence.

Episode 25:
What's interesting is that the list includes a separate entry for the Beethoven piece for this episode and lists is as "different version". I have no idea what makes it so different, since it sounds exactly like the full track. Also, there is no mention of the synth voice only version of A-4.

Episode 26:
The list doesn't include any mention of the regular version of A-10.

And since the list doesn't cover the movies, that should be everything.


I would be open to any questions/comments/suggestions. (Also, if you read through all of that, thank you for taking the time to do so).

(Also, posted this as its own thread as opposed to a reply in my other thread about this mainly so that the above notes would be more visible and more easily able to be referenced by those who may be looking to do so, as opposed to buried beneath several other posts. However, if this thread needs to be merged with the other in accordance with the rules, I understand.)[/b]
Last edited by Sephizim on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:56 pm

This is fantastic work! I think the Beethoven piece in question (Ode to Joy) is missing some singing in 24 which was retained in 25, specifically the "Freude, schoener gotterfunken..." part at the beginning. It's all instrumental at the beginning in 24, but the singing goes on as normal in 25.

Edit: There is a long instrumental part before the "O Freuuudeeeee..." part in 24, but that part isn't missing like I thought. It merely begins much later.
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Postby Sephizim » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:25 pm

Yeah, it seems like the big section in question for episode 24 starts by skipping to roughly 4:59 in, and then plays completely through (from what I can tell) until about 9:38, at which point it skips right on ahead to 12:41, and plays to... 15:46 or so? Something like that. But those chunks play without skipping around. Whereas in episode 25, it starts at 7:05 (after the opening vocal solo, and at the same place where the piece starts in Q as well) until like 8:15 or so. But it all sounds like its from the same version.

...yeah, my knowledge of EVA music was already pretty good, but doing this whole project has taken to encyclopedic levels.

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Postby ath » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:46 pm

Nice work! Be sure to add a link pointing to this thread, in case someone visiting the Wiki is looking for more information.
It would be nice to link to the LD insert picture as a reference but I'm not completely sure of the rules about uploading this kind of material on the Wiki.


View Original PostSephizim wrote:...yeah, my knowledge of EVA music was already pretty good, but doing this whole project has taken to encyclopedic levels.

... and that's what being an EvaGeek is all about :lol:

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Postby Sephizim » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:13 pm

View Original Postath wrote:Be sure to add a link pointing to this thread, in case someone visiting the Wiki is looking for more information.


Good idea. In general wiki terms, what would be the most elegant way to insert a link leading to a forum page? I would assume it would go at the bottom, but would it be placed under a "more info" header or something like that?

For the LD insert, I would almost say having a little "gallery" at the bottom of the page might work well for that, but with only one image, it might just end up taking up too much space on the page.

Oh, also I was thinking of adding footnotes for general notes, like how we only list the first occurrence of Cruel Angel's Thesis and Jikai Yokoku, and how we use Death(True)² as the default version of Death. Basically, the same footnotes that were on Reichu's page. Sound like a good idea?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:39 pm

I've basically forgotten everything that went into making the list and related stuff on Eva music, so I'm personally pretty useless at this point. Though naturally I have no complaints about more of my old efforts being utilized as opposed to less. :wink: I should note that one reference I utilized heavily was the booklet for S2 Works, which I translated crudely some time ago* and used as a guide. It may be worth cross-referencing with the sheet from Eva Fan Club.

http://www.evageeks.org/s2/reichu_s2works_sgh.html

Also, from what I recall, whatever Shinji is listening to when he's thinking about kissing Asuka in episode 9 was never identified, though I remember people actually trying.

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Postby Sephizim » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:49 pm

Ah, sempai, you noticed my thread~!

Don't worry, I'm more than happy to pick up the torch for all EVA-music-related things. The music is what has always managed to bring me back to EVA, time and time again, and it holds a very special place in my heart. (Stop me before I list all of the pieces of this score that have brought me to tears on several occasions.)

I have to say, most of the process was based purely on my own knowledge of the music and what I heard with my own ears. That being said, your list was still an absolute life-saver, identifying music I wouldn't have been able to otherwise, and a few variations of songs I would have completely missed.

The translation you linked to is pretty much what I was looking for a while back, too. Perhaps it would have made this whole process even easier for me. Instead of building my list from scratch (since I only discovered your list around the time I was working on episode 20 or so) I could have at least had that translation as a pseudo-guide for all of this. Still, doing all the work feels like its own reward.

On a bit of an unrelated note, I've seen that part of the S² Works liner notes mention original intentions for songs (like "I, Shinji" originally being intended as a theme for the Angels, or how A-10~13 were meant to be themes of Arka). Is there anywhere where this information is compiled, or would I be better off just trying to translate the booklet myself?

Oh, also, I don't consider this list complete until I A) fill in the scene column for the movies (even if they stay as red links for a while) and B) when I watch the Pre-Renewal versions to see if there are any incongruities with the list as it stands.

(Also, yeah, I had listed the mystery song from episode 9 as unknown until I checked your list. Seems like Tooi sora no yakusoku is what plays there, from what I can hear. Its just that its so damn short and quiet. But it also matches up with the LD insert, so I think its a safe bet on that one.)

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:45 pm

View Original PostSephizim wrote:I've seen that part of the S² Works liner notes mention original intentions for songs (like "I, Shinji" originally being intended as a theme for the Angels, or how A-10~13 were meant to be themes of Arka). Is there anywhere where this information is compiled, or would I be better off just trying to translate the booklet myself?

I'm a bit confused... You sound like you've already seen the (badly) translated "music menus", but you're also asking where they're "compiled" and whether you need to translate them? Huh? (By the way, if you want to put this info on the Wiki somewhere, the translation could really use a go-over first.)

Also, yeah, I had listed the mystery song from episode 9 as unknown until I checked your list. Seems like Tooi sora no yakusoku is what plays there, from what I can hear. Its just that its so damn short and quiet. But it also matches up with the LD insert, so I think its a safe bet on that one.

I'm referring specifically to the song (songs?) that Shinji is skipping through, after Asuka lays down by him and he's holding the SDAT's button down. I don't remember this being confirmed as Tooi sora, though for all I know it is.
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Postby Sephizim » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:57 pm

Ah, bad wording on my part. I meant to say that I've seen the information gleaned from the music menu on other places (the bit about "I, Shinji" was from the commentary from episode 1, and the Arka bit was from a note on the translation page for Proposal), but I've never actually seen the music menu itself. The page you linked to was exactly what I was looking for. Not really relevant to the Music in Chronological Order of Appearance page, but still something I've wanted to see for a while. (As far as the translation part, that was just me saying if the information in those menus hadn't been translated, that I would be fine with getting the raw information and trying to translate it myself.) Once again, you manage to provide the exact information I'm looking for, sempai! :p

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'm referring specifically to the song (songs?) that Shinji is skipping through, after Asuka lays down by him and he's holding the SDAT's button down. I don't remember this being confirmed as Tooi sora, though for all I know it is.


Ah. That part. I was referring to the song he was listening before he pauses it. But after she lays down and it fast-fowards or rewinds or whatever... yeah, no. No way that part is ever getting identified. Maybe one day if I'm bored enough I'll trying playing Tooi sora sped-up to see if it matches up with what plays in the episode, but I'm willing to let that one go for now. If anything I would place that one in the category of sfx over music.

And now that I've said that, a part of my brain is going to obsess over it until I figure it out, isn't it? *sigh*

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:19 pm

Sephizim: The reason I bring up the 'SDAT skipping song' is that I was part of a thread eons ago where somewhere manipulated the audio clip until it actually sounded like something. Nobody could figure out what, but it did sound like... something ...song-ish. I'm sure the manipulation is long gone, but the experiment might be worth repeating, especially since you've been baking your brains in Eva music lately!

(I haven't looked at the commentary pages in so long that I tend to forget whatever I mentioned there, hence my confusion. Man, it's only going to go downhill from here! :tongue: )
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Postby Sephizim » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:26 pm

Uh-oh. Now that you've mentioned it actually sounds like some kind of song when slowed down... yeah, my interest in identifying it is going up significantly. Maybe someday. I still have a ton of work left for this page still, as well as some other projects for other music-related pages on the wiki. But after that, who knows? (Chances are that the mystery song is simply another track off of GYUU or Lilia, since that's where all of the vocal songs come from).

Also, after reading that page you linked to in your last post... oof. That translation sounds brutal. My own translations skills are probably a lot weaker than yours, so I probably wouldn't have made it out of the process without pulling out all of my hair. Kudos to you, sempai.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:39 pm

View Original PostSephizim wrote:That translation sounds brutal.

Might've been, way back then. I'd probably have an easier time of it now. If you ever feel like adding the music menus to the Wiki, poke me to clean up the translation first. :wink:
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Postby Sephizim » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:50 pm

Ah, sempai, your translation skills in the past were already amazing, but now you say you're even better? Wondeful! (Aaaaaand I think this is the point where I've officially run this whole "sempai" gag into the ground. That is, if I hadn't already.)

Anyway, yeah, that might be a good appendix to the S² Works page. We could put it in the resources page or something like that. I may ask you to clean up that translation fairly soon, actually, if that's okay with you. After taking care of a few other things, adding in that section would probably be my next big priority on the wiki.

Sephizim
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Postby Sephizim » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:23 pm

Okay, so I've let this thread sit for a bit here, since I was waiting for my R2 pre-Renewal DVDs to come in. Well, they arrived today, I went to work comparing them to the notes I left in the first post of this thread. It was a good thing, too, as I have a few edits now that I need to make to the wiki page. I have added all of the relevant updates to the spoiler'd section of the first post, indicated in bold. Obviously, episodes that still matched up with what I had already written do not have accompanying notes.

So, what's next? Well, I'm far from finished with this thing. My next step is to use the cut list on the DVD to figure out all of the cuts for the movies. This way I can have information to put in the "scene" column for those sections. Granted, since the movies aren't currently part of the FGC (and won't be for a while, by the sound of it), the info I add in there will have to be red links. Still, better to have that information on the wiki than not.

Lastly, there is an idea I've been toying with. I was thinking of adding a 5th column, which would be labelled "diegism." When used applied to music in movies and TV, this refers to the level of depth the music in question is integrated into the world of the characters. Music that is considered diegetic is music that the characters can hear (radio, Shinji's SDAT), while non-diegetic music is pure background music that only the audience can hear. Evangelion mixes it up between the two a lot, and it might be interesting to have that information available. Also, I was thinking of additionally making note of the source of all the diegetic music (though, since this might be troublesome, I may only mark the ones that are playing on Shinji's SDAT).

What do you all think?


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