Does Sadamoto Ship Rei or Asuka?

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Does Sadamoto Ship Rei or Asuka?

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Postby AsukaLangley » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:18 am

After read the manga i see that Sadamoto forces the shipping R/S, while in anime Anno makes an equality between A/S and R/S.

What you think ?
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:30 am

The closing stage of the manga hints the other way, so perhaps it's not that clear - or perhaps he was trying to balance his leaning the other way earlier...
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Postby AsukaLangley » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:32 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The closing stage of the manga hints the other way, so perhaps it's not that clear - or perhaps he was trying to balance his leaning the other way earlier...


Do you talk about the last scenes? In the subway station? I thinks this scene is only to show that Asuka is alive like others.
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Postby Rei IV » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:53 am

The manga may have over-emphasized on the Shinji and Rei relationship but it's not like the pairing became canon or anything and we saw how it ended overall as well.
Last edited by Rei IV on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AsukaLangley » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:00 am

I think that doesn't exist couple on Evangelion, because a people that can't love yourself, can't love others.

But the hands scenes and dialogues looks like a first date, when both side are ashamed.
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:08 am

I always intepreted it as over-exposing Rei in general because they were aware of how popular she is, and overlooking Asuka.

For example, the episode 15 kiss scene is transplanted to the middle of the Matarael attack in the manga. Asuka actually has pretty much the same "I don't really want to kiss you but we absolutely must do it attitude" but people don't like it because the mood is mishandled and it ends with a joke, which I think is an example of mishandling Asuka's moments in the transition to manga, rather than true ship sinking.

In fact, in that scene, an LAS shipping warrior has that famous line from Shinji about how he couldn't have romanting feelings for Rei because he feels something more mysterious. This is a good example of expanding's Rei's role that I think keeps to the original flavour - not that I think it sinks Rei/Shinji's potential relationship, that's just what I'd think he'd say at that point.

View Original PostRei IV wrote: We saw how it ended overall as well.


I don't want to judge Sadamoto unfairly. Maybe it was intended to have an ironic payoff? In fact, the "we've got this close but maybe no closer" logic is explicitly stated when Shinji runs form another famously altered NME relationship - Kaworu's mega-awkward shower scene. Kaworu's ship really got sunk, so I guess Asuka got off lucky. Maybe Sadamoto is trying to do something more complicated than I thought - but I'm not sure it really payed off.


Rei is similarly more touchy-feely and LAR in NTE 2.0 and Asuka is killed off way too early, for example. The "reveals her angst in her sleep moment" is mostly similar in the manga but completely altered in 2.0. Given the way 2.0 ends maybe there is an 'ironic' intention to Rei trying to set up the party she skips out in Chapter 29.

Overall, I think it's more promoting Rei and that has some snippy-seeming moments rather than a true attempt to shove aside the Asuka - Shinji story. Even so, I think they let a lot of good Asuka moments go by the wayside. But Rei gets some great moments with the extra time in the manga, and after all, Asuka is the final girl in EoE, so maybe that's fair. I was bothered because I thought they were doing it in 2.0 as well, but now we have 3.0 I guess I was wrong because they're going in a completely different direction.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:44 pm

View Original PostAsukaLangley wrote:Do you talk about the last scenes? In the subway station? I thinks this scene is only to show that Asuka is alive like others.

Well, there is a hint of some connection, but that's it, of course.

Earlier though, for another example, during the fight with the MPEs Shinji and Asuka are shown interacting in a really familiar way (look at Asuka's subtle smile when she tells Shinji off for arriving late, for example).
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:39 pm

Didn't Sadamoto said in an interview that he didn't had any preference between Asuka and Rei, that he found the former too "bitchy" and the later too "creepy"?

It's possible that Sadamoto chose to explore more the relationship between Rei and Shinji because the TV Series explored a lot of the Asuka-Shinji one and left Rei aside as soon as episode 6 : Anno even said in an interview that he made an error in making the moment Rei smiles to Shinji so soon, and that after that he didn't had any idea how to continue her arc from here, hence why she seemed to fade at the same time that Asuka appeared.(and also that Rebuild was his opportunity to correct that error)

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Earlier though, for another example, during the fight with the MPEs Shinji and Asuka are shown interacting in a really familiar way (look at Asuka's subtle smile when she tells Shinji off for arriving late, for example).

That could simply be that she's happy that he saved her from being devoured alive by a band of crazy cannibalistic giant cyborgs, she made the same kind of smile in the TV Series when he saved her from the volcano.
Asuka and Shinji in the manga looks more like solid friends and teammates rather than love interest(which ironically was the most functional relationship they had in the whole Evangelion franchise, ANIMA aside)
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Postby AsukaLangley » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:09 pm

Anno even said in an interview that he made an error in making the moment Rei smiles to Shinji so soon, and that after that he didn't had any idea how to continue her arc from here


Great information, i don't knew about this. Thanks.
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If i miss something on english, please correct me. Sorry.

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:52 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Didn't Sadamoto said in an interview that he didn't had any preference between Asuka and Rei, that he found the former too "bitchy" and the later too "creepy"?


I suspect they're reacting to fan popularity rather than personal favoritism.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote: Anno even said in an interview that he made an error in making the moment Rei smiles to Shinji so soon, and that after that he didn't had any idea how to continue her arc from here, hence why she seemed to fade at the same time that Asuka appeared.(and also that Rebuild was his opportunity to correct that error)


Huh, since he didn't change that scene in 1.0, I'd really like to see the context for that. Was that before the movie came out?

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote: But Rei gets some great moments with the extra time in the manga, and after all, Asuka is the final girl in EoE, so maybe that's fair.


View Original PostElMariachi wrote: It's possible that Sadamoto chose to explore more the relationship between Rei and Shinji because the TV Series explored a lot of the Asuka-Shinji one and left Rei aside as soon as episode 6


...or is he saying he boosts the relationship in 2.0 to build up after that? Really gotta see the source for that.

If the idea is to make 3.0 more harrowing, I guess the intention can't be shipping or pandering.

@AsukaLangley: Have you read the later chapters? I think what looks like more R/S shipping is just a build up to:
SPOILER: Show
Revealing Rei is a clone, and the relationship seems to be reset when she dies. He runs crying to Kaworu about how she's changed, as if she's gone
and Shinji and Rei's relationship ends up the same as in the TV series, I think. I also think that there isn't really less A/S, he just doesn't present it as well. A lot of the same things still happen for mostly the same reason. The change in the Rebuild is huge by comparison.
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:01 pm

Manga Ending = A/S hint
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Postby AsukaLangley » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:03 pm

Manga ending = Cliche
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:05 pm

View Original PostAsukaLangley wrote:Manga ending = Cliche


True but sadamoto get his snow so all is right with the world
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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:04 pm


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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:41 pm

View Original Post1731298478 wrote: Episode 6 was too early.

At the end Rei says "I don't know what to do," and Shinji says, "I think you should smile," and Rei smiles. ... Afterwards, when I thought about it, I cursed. In short, if she and Shinji completely "communicated" there, then isn't she over with? At that moment, Rei, for me, was finished.

When she smiled, she was already finished, this character.


I knew there was a quote out there when Anno says he 'forgot about' Rei - I didn't think it would be this one!

Well, since the manga was ultimately produced years after the TV series, that makes me think both Sadamoto and Anno were doing the same thing and trying to keep the relationship progressing in NTE and the manga, instead of stopping at 6 and letting Asuka take focus at 8. What I think this doesn't solve is the post-6 stuff Rei being more forward is still kinda anti-climactic. Although Sadamoto does give Rei some really good scenes later in the Manga, really, how could you go further than "It's how I feel connected to people", "I'll protect you Ikari", "I think you should smile"?

I guess the real problem is not that they're shipping Rei at the expense of Asuka, it's that they're trying to move on from a climax that comes too early but that they also don't want to change an iconic moment in the series. But more middle-arc time for Rei means Asuka's screentime has to give way...

So, could the answer be... more screentime for Asuka? Does anybody think that could work in the series?
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Postby Rei IV » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:50 pm


Which totally makes sense for Rei, in many aspects, to be regarded as a plot device. Important to narrative, yes, but a plot device nevertheless. Rebuild (or NTE) did the job a wee bit better but that's all irrelevant now, as seen with Q.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:51 pm

View Original PostSoryuUberAlles wrote:I guess the real problem is not that they're shipping Rei at the expense of Asuka, it's that they're trying to move on from a climax that comes too early but that they also don't want to change an iconic moment in the series. But more middle-arc time for Rei means Asuka's screentime has to give way...

So, could the answer be... more screentime for Asuka? Does anybody think that could work in the series?

Well, FINAL seems to go toward that direction : with Rei II gone, Kaworu dead and the trio stranded in the desert, there's the chance that Asuka get more screentime this time.

As for the smiling scene, the fact Anno said 15 years ago that he felt that it happened too soon don't mean that he didn't found an alternative for the Rebuild : that scene is one of the most iconic of the franchise, like Yui-sama going berserk for the first time and utterly destroying Sachiel who was threatening her son, revealing "Eva's true nature", you just can't make a remake without that scene.

But unlike in the 90's where Anno didn't know how to move Rei's arc after that point until the last episodes and EoE when she fulfills her "destiny", now he has more ideas to make her character continue to progress, hence 2.0 with the discussion in the Aquarium with Shinji, him offering her soup and later preparing a bento for her, showing her that there is people who cares for her not just because of her role in The Plan, but for who she is, and Rei's answer to Shinji's affection by trying to give him what he wanted more : to get closer to his father and maybe mend their relationship, via the dinner party she was about to prepare.

And this added character development makes the moment she gets killed and replaced by a clone even more horrible for the audience, especially since this time Rei Q is really another Rei, and not a product of a soul transfer that retains part of the predecessor's memories.
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:19 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote: As for the smiling scene, the fact Anno said 15 years ago that he felt that it happened too soon don't mean that he didn't found an alternative for the Rebuild : that scene is one of the most iconic of the franchise, like Yui-sama going berserk for the first time and utterly destroying Sachiel who was threatening her son, revealing "Eva's true nature", you just can't make a remake without that scene.


Yes, it can't be improved, but can it be... moved ?After all, it's the power of the scene is what makes, for me, the disadvantage of letting Rei-Shinji stuff slide to make way for Asuka (NGE) or Asuka-Shinji stuff move for touchy-feely Rei (NME and NTE), which has the added disadvantage of being not equal to that moment. What a moment! It's got that defining shot of Rei standing on the scaffolding in front of that stupidly giant moon!

Having said that, I can't think where I'd move it. The Descent Arc is too bitter, but Rei's is in Bitter End. Still that's a lot of space. If you cut out Jet Alone and move it, you could introduce Asuka two episodes earlier. Edit:That's the advantage of the Monster-of-the-Week format, you could move stuff around.

You know, I always thought Sado and Anno were just boosting 'teh Rei' to meet demand, but in context I can really see what they were doing. I still think Asuka's been mishandles because of it, though, but at least, as you say, there's one more film for both Asuka to break into new territory...and Mari to actually, like, do something.
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Postby Kendrix » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:34 pm

Sadamoto's been notably contradicting himself on the subject of Rei, like, a lot.

But the scenes pretty much speak for themselves.

Sad ending =/= it never existed. See Rome/Juliet, Jack/Rose... etc for most obvious examples.
Also, anything involving teh Rei obviously requires you to pay attention to subtlety, even if Sadamoto is admittedly less versed in that art than Anno is.

All the manga ending does is show us that a) Asuka also has a reincarnation hanging out here, and she's happy and okay, which ppl probably want to know b) Reincarnation!Shinji is going to keep using these hands of his (compare to similar emphasized shots during the impact scene, like Misato grabbing him, the Bardiel debacle...) for new, positive experiences. For all the harm they can do, you can also help people. Like Reincarnation!Asuka, who will now get to wherever she was going.
It's pretty much presented as a brief "hello and farewell" encounter - She doesn't frecall him, he can't really say much to her, he tries to follow but loses her in the crowd/gets distracted by Kensuke...



I think it's anything A/S related that gets blown hugely out of proportion - its very possible to watch the series (especially without DC material, but even with it, it still exists in the context of the prexisting stuff) and not get that there was supposed to be anything beyond a little teasing on one side and spontaneous bursts of raging hormones on the other.
(and heck, even if you recognize the consistent arc here, it still doesn't go much beyond ego and hormones)

In the manga, at least, they never went beyond being comerades/vitriolic friends of sorts - and it was arguably for the better, you couldn't have anything like the first garden scene with their anime counterparts, where Shinji actually displays an iota of understanding for her.

So there just wasn't the sort of triangle situation we have in the anime, before Kaworu showed up, that is, and he ended up getting much of the angry UST/"profane" birds and bees experiences parts that anime!Asuka previously covered. IMHO at the cost of other things (ie, much of what made up the original kaworu experience), but it wasn't a bad idea in itself to try executing that matter in a different way.

It's probably not that Sadamoto was uninterested in Asuka - if he was, he wouldn't have made up so much new stuff relating to her/cared about presenting his own version.



Also, last but not least, I'd like to throw something into the room:
Just because no fucking is involved, that doesn't make a relationship lesser, less close, less important or less worth. It just means they're not fuckin'.
In an ideal world, your partner would be something like a best friend AND someone you're atttracted to, but commonly, friendships tend to last longer and break less easily.
That said, while this tendency exists, it's a tendency, not an absolute fact - a relationship that involves attraction doesn't immediately become lesser, less important etc. as long as you see each other as people, not each other's living happypills you're entitled to use. There are a lot of working constellations out there that bring people happiness.


Also, let's not take that Rei-related misplacement quote out of context again:
SPOILER: Show
Oizumi: When I look at Rei Ayanami, I’m reminded of the girls in Aum. In short, they’re all dependent upon their Guru, Asahara.

Takekuma: [She devotes herself] wholeheartedly, with a heart like a hard shell.

Oizumi: Exactly. And, on the topic of substitutions, can we think of Rei Ayanami as being a person like your mother?

Anno: That’s not quite right.

Takekuma: There’s also nothing like the image of a girl you previously dated [in her], right?

Anno: No. Well, Rei is probably [the character] closest to my deep psyche. I don’t really understand her. … The truth is, I have no emotional attachment to her at all.

Takekuma: Huh? Is that right?

Anno: Yeah. I have no emotional attachment to her. Well, Nobita-san wrote [about her] as being a symbol of schizophrenia. There were parts where that was actually what I wanted to do [with her].

Takekuma: But she is the character best received by the fans in the outside world. Even I was drawn in by Rei at the beginning.

Oizumi: That’s right. Megumi Hayashibara’s voice was also incredible.

Anno: But Rei is [the character] I least understand. In addition, I’m not really that interested in her. There were parts where that’s what I was consciously doing, actively trying to put aside my presuppositions, trying to bring out the most primitive, the most core, the purest parts within me.

Oizumi: So Rei is perhaps [something] embedded in your unconscious [that] can’t be expressed in words.

Anno: Even in the midst of making Eva, I suddenly realized I had forgotten her. Her very existence. In episode seven, I remembered, and added a single shot with Rei. I had no emotional attachment to her at all. I think that was fine, because she didn’t appear in episode eight, not even for a single shot.

(From the Introduction to Chapter Four / Parano)

(Emphasis mine)

The character was there for a reason, to express things - Anno doesn't do pandering, and he does have something to do and express with the character. He just has a weird relationship with writing her.

And isn't it obvious enough that this "brief cluelessness of what to do with her" was pretty much remedied from ep 14 onwards? (ep 11 also had lots of Rei)
All 2.0 did was cover everything in-between (the ep 9 to 13 jolly monster of the week defeating with Shinji & Asuka learning to cooperate in the meantime) in a relatively short timeframe, so it felt like less of a break, allthough for me, Anno suceeded in making it all look deliberate. XD

Perhaps he got lucky - you expect there to be less of everyone else when two new characters are being introduced/established.

Rei and Asuka are just very different characters whose presences work in different ways. Having her in a corner saying one cryptic, but heartfelt line can dominate a whole scene/episode by itself.

By contrast, Asuka, just by nature, makes a lot of noise. She fears the silence. She fears dissapearing into the silence if others can't heart her.
Last edited by Kendrix on Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:45 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote: In the manga, at least, they never went beyond being comerades/vitriolic friends of sorts - and it was arguably for the better, you couldn't have anything like the first garden scene with their anime counterparts, where Shinji actually displays an iota of understanding for her.


Ironically that's a sensitive Manga scene that insensitive Manga Shinji delivers kinda harshly. I think some of the Rei stuff Sadamoto does add is just gold, but he adds a lot of other stuff between Rei and Shinji that I think doesn't live up to them and has a hard time sharing focus. For example, the manga's Matarael-version kiss: Good Rei-Shinji detail, but please not in the middle of the 'you won't even hold me' kiss!


View Original PostKendrix wrote:Also, last but not least, I'd like to throw something into the room:
Just because no fucking is involved, that doesn't make a relationship lesser, less close, less important or less worth. It just means they're not fuckin'.


In Eva, the relationship-critiquing is sometimes more about the a journey than the a destination, perhaps.
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