"Masculine Protest"?

[Veoren]

[Title corrected. - Monk]

When Asuka is being mentally probed by Arael, one of the phrases near the end is "Masculine Priest"? Am I seeing things?

I get all the other ones "Father" "Mother" "I'm not a doll", etc.. But WTH with this one? Anyone have any ideas? Does it really say that? I cant seem to pause the video at JUST the right moment..

Here is a link, look towards the very end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ0doO3VFjc

[The Killer of Heroes]

It says "Masculine Protest".

SPOILER: Show

[Veoren]

Ahhh! Thank you so much!

Well now I'm even more confused though.. WHAT does this mean? And WHAT does it have to do with poor little Asuka?

[The Killer of Heroes]

I think you could read it as either meaning "Asuka protests the masculine/male characters" (Perhaps referring to how she wants Shinji to be more "manly".) or "Asuka protests in a masculine way" (AKA speaking her mind, generally being a little rough etc.).

Both apply to the character.

[Veoren]

I think you could read it as either meaning "Asuka protests the masculine/male characters" (Perhaps referring to how she wants Shinji to be more "manly".) or "Asuka protests in a masculine way" (AKA speaking her mind, generally being a little rough etc.).

Both apply to the character.

I see.. You're right. Dunno if we can involve the rebuilds here but I'm reminded of the time she calls Toji a caveman when he says the kitchen is not a "man's place" and talking about having principles and all that.

She does seem to protest an awful lot in the series. But is that "masculine"? Is that what she thinks or fears? Is it the angel judging her?

[Fireball]

Well now I'm even more confused though.. WHAT does this mean? And WHAT does it have to do with poor little Asuka?

http://www.encyclopedia69.com/eng/d/masculine-protest/masculine-protest.htm

[The Killer of Heroes]

Well it looks like I was way off.

[Kendrix]

As she tells us herself in episode 25, her old man appears to have permanently ruined her opinion of the penis-owning kind...

[Veoren]

http://www.encyclopedia69.com/eng/d/masculine-protest/masculine-protest.htm

er ma god, thank you so much for this!!! This is so freakin interesting! *-*

If I had never made this thread, I woud've never known about this in my life! thank you :)

"This he supposed to be the source of the feelings of inferiority they experienced, and the striving for compensation either in aggression or its opposite passivity. The first was equated with masculinity, the second with femininity."

So, if Asuka had been male, she would be all "passive" instead? I dunno, this all seems a little sexist. But then again, as it says there, maybe sexism (since ancient times) is the cause of all this.

Ancient periods of matriarchy? I wish I knew more about this!

[Bagheera]

So, if Asuka had been male, she would be all "passive" instead? I dunno, this all seems a little sexist.

The opposite, I think. The idea is that both responses are rejections of assigned gender norms, responses made by people who don't fit in with society's expectations of them. So Asuka becomes aggressive because she's expected to be a passive female, and a male would become passive because he's expected to be an aggressive male. Both are saying "no, I don't want that, stop telling me how to behave!"

It's not "this is how women are" or "this is how women ought to be" so much as "this is what people do when society tells them this is how they are or how they ought to be." IOW it's descriptive, not proscriptive.

[SoryuUberAlles]

But, like, being super-neurotic and technical, Asuka as a woman cannot suffer from "masculine protest" anymore than Shinji can suffer from penis envy, right?

A quick reminder that Evangelion's psychological sources are actually quite a bit heterogeneous, from Klein, to Freud to Adler and I think just a soupcon of Lacan.

I feel better knowing that, last Freud I read "Introjection" (ep. 19) is actually supposed to occur during "Oral Stage" (ep. 20). Potential sense-making FTW!

[sulla]

The opposite, I think. The idea is that both responses are rejections of assigned gender norms, responses made by people who don't fit in with society's expectations of them. So Asuka becomes aggressive because she's expected to be a passive female, and a male would become passive because he's expected to be an aggressive male. Both are saying "no, I don't want that, stop telling me how to behave!"

It's not "this is how women are" or "this is how women ought to be" so much as "this is what people do when society tells them this is how they are or how they ought to be." IOW it's descriptive, not proscriptive.

Females are not expected to be passive though. Who are they expected to be passive by?

[Gob Hobblin]

Gender role is something that (especially at the time) is more stringently defined in Japanese culture. Women are expected to be more passive there, in a traditional sense.

Arguably, all cultures have 'female passivity' as something that is expected of women. Equal gender roles is something I would say has really only gotten traction in the last decade, proven by the fact that it is still a far cry from anything that can remotely be considered equal.

It does bring up the interesting question of what Asuka's character says about gender roles, especially in how she behaves (which is all over the map, from being flirtatious to being 'masculine'). Look at all the jokes about how Shinji is the girl and Asuka wears the pants.

[sulla]

Gender role is something that (especially at the time) is more stringently defined in Japanese culture. Women are expected to be more passive there, in a traditional sense.

Arguably, all cultures have 'female passivity' as something that is expected of women. Equal gender roles is something I would say has really only gotten traction in the last decade, proven by the fact that it is still a far cry from anything that can remotely be considered equal.

It does bring up the interesting question of what Asuka's character says about gender roles, especially in how she behaves (which is all over the map, from being flirtatious to being 'masculine'). Look at all the jokes about how Shinji is the girl and Asuka wears the pants.

I thought Asuka grew up in Germany?

Far cry from being equal? In the sense that females are completely socially dominant over men?

You are taken a lot of feminist assertion for granted.

From what I can see, female siblings are encouraged to practise social dominance over male ones. This enforces the gender roles of higher female social value, male supplication.

Asuka is not a rebelling against gender roles, she is an example of a cluster type B personality disorder, she is the epitome of the extreme female.

Shinji is a typical male in a lot of ways too. Despite the stereotype males tend to be less proactive and more reactive than females.

I am very sceptical about the assertion about females being encouraged or pressured into being passive and quiet, I don't see it at all.

[Gob Hobblin]

^

.....huh?

Where are you living that women have the advantage over men? I mean, here in the States, there is wage disparity, continued arguments over the rights women have to their own reproduction...hell, I can give you a list of everything in the MILITARY that demonstrates the sheer disparity women there suffer (being in the military myself, I can attest to a lot of that).

And what does it matter where Asuka grew up? She was in Japan. And yes, Germany also has to deal with gender-roles: every Western culture deals with gender roles, just as Eastern cultures do. Germany is no exception.

...I am still really confused by your statement concerning 'social dominance.' I literally do not see any situation in society where women have some sort of social dominance over men, or men being victims of 'supplication' at the roles of women. Where did that come from? What evidence do you have to support that assertion? That's getting off topic, that statement really threw me off the tracks.

[Bagheera]

...I am still really confused by your statement concerning 'social dominance.' I literally do not see any situation in society where women have some sort of social dominance over men, or men being victims of 'supplication' at the roles of women. Where did that come from? What evidence do you have to support that assertion? That's getting off topic, that statement really threw me off the tracks.

He sounds like an MRA, or at least a sympathizer. Just ignore him, there's no arguing with someone who's that far removed from reality.

[Gob Hobblin]

^

....but it's...so...hard...not to........

[Bagheera]

^

....but it's...so...hard...not to........

Right, because you're a decent human being who's firmly grounded in reality. But if you argue with him you just drag out the pain, so it's not worth it. He won't see reason no matter what you say, so just let it go and move on. Gotta pick your battles, y'know?

[Gob Hobblin]

Touche, Bagheera. You are correct, as you tend to be frequently.

[Bagheera]

Touche, Bagheera. You are correct, as you tend to be frequently.

Why thank you sir!