Rei and Kaworu: The True Impact Triggers?

[Giji Shinka]

Possible language barrier here (underlined bit) but did you mean two souls are required to wield two spears?

Yep.

[ElMariachi]

Possible language barrier here (underlined bit) but did you mean two souls are required to wield two spears?

Yes, I meant "two soul are required to wield both spears", this is not a case of language barrier, just me the typed to quickly, my bad!

[monitoradiation]

It basically suggests that a human can, at sufficiently high synchronization/rage levels, cause the Eva to evolve and use it's AT field offensively.

Unless we are all wrong and you actually need TWO SYNCHRONIZED pilots to make an Eva trigger + consumption of an opposing being of another lineage - Not that Rei or Kaworu were especially special in this circumstance, but that the synchronization is what needs to happen. Recall the MPE's behind GNR in EoE. I'm thinking something similar.

Remember, Kozou said that "You were right! Their UNITY was enough to awaken the Eva" (or something to that effect). There is a possibility that the synchronization of the pilots is required.

But to go full awakened/evolved, giant light being, you need a Rei or a Kaworu. Which makes *them* the triggers. If Kaworu wasn't doing anything, why did the DSS choker activate? We don't ever see Misato pull the trigger and earlier in the movie it's quite clearly implied that she's incapable of doing so. Therefore, Kaworu triggered the choker by himself; he's obviously more than a simple passenger.

She wasn't incapable of doing so, it's that the risk/reward wasn't big enough for her to do it.

Granted, I think that Misato didn't do it, but that she's incapable of doing it isn't why I think that.

This is further proven by the fact that Kaworu believes the process can be ENDED by his own action as well. Why, if he didn't start it, does he think he can end it? He stabs the Eva and goes pop, but the process surprisingly keeps on going. If he was truly locked out of the controls by Shinji, he shouldn't have even been able to do the spear thing...

I'm of the opinion that the stabs were pre-programmed as a part of the ritual. Shinji, of the two, experienced the stabbing pains. Kaworu did not. I take this to mean that Kaworu wasn't synch'd to the Eva anymore... Then again, this might destroy my speculation that you need two synch'd pilots to make the pseudo-evolved Eva awaken... But we get back to Rei who wasn't synch'd to Eva-01 in 2.22 neither... Perhaps they just have to have opened their heart to each other? (ie AT fields aligned)?

WILLE may not even realize Shinji succeeded in pulling Rei across the core barrier and into his plug. They retrieve his SDAT, but only Shinji realizes the significance of this since Rei was the one who fished it out of the trash and presumably Rei is the only one who even knows he'd thrown it away to begin with.

That's my impression as well. They may have only realized this after Shinji told them that he saved her and that she was in the plug with him. Though they didn't sound very surprised...

[ElMariachi]

Unless we are all wrong and you actually need TWO SYNCHRONIZED pilots to make an Eva trigger + consumption of an opposing being of another lineage - Not that Rei or Kaworu were especially special in this circumstance, but that the synchronization is what needs to happen. Recall the MPE's behind GNR in EoE. I'm thinking something similar.

Remember, Kozou said that "You were right! Their UNITY was enough to awaken the Eva" (or something to that effect). There is a possibility that the synchronization of the pilots is required.

Charsi said that an human alone can brought his Eva into the pseudo-evolved state(when it becomes red and start shooing eyebeams and grow limbs made of pure AT Field), and indeed Shinji was on his own when EVA-01 pseudo-evolved. But to make it awake(absorbing a FoL/someone of the opposite lineage and become all withe an glowy before tearing an hole in the fabric of reality) you need someone else, specifically a SoL. Meaning that had the story happened like in NGE(Rei not absorbed by Zeruel), Shinji would have pseudo-evolved EVA-01(well maybe, not sure that he would had the motivation to go that far if it wasn't to save a loved one), beaten Zeruel to a pulp and then maybe absorbed its FoL, "only" gaining the neat bonus of infinite energy, with the "turning red and eye laser raping you to death" mode unlocked!

And Kozo said that "the both of them" were enough to awake EVA-01, we don't know what exactly he meant by that.

She wasn't incapable of doing so, it's that the risk/reward wasn't big enough for her to do it.

Granted, I think that Misato didn't do it, but that she's incapable of doing it isn't why I think that.

Ritsuko explicitly told her that letting him escape was too dangerous and that she must activate the DSS Choker, on a purely pragmatic level the "risk/reward" was totally against Shinji living, but Misato couldn't do it, because she's still a human being, she can't do cold-blooded killing of a kid deep down she knows never wanted all that shit to happen and was a pawn at his father's hands and still cares about them(his first request was to go to help Asuka, even though he didn't had a clue of what was happening, that's the proof that he cares about them!), story-wise that was to show that she still has a heart and didn't sank to Gendo's level.(remember : they're the good guys)

That's my impression as well. They may have only realized this after Shinji told them that he saved her and that she was in the plug with him. Though they didn't sound very surprised...

Well, they saw EVA-01 extracting EVA-00's core from Zeruel, it taking the form of a 70 meter tall Rei and being absorbed into EVA-01, so the logical thing is that they know that Rei is inside, but don't think that they can bring her back from the core, like what happened with Yui(although it could be that for Yui it was because she didn't wanted to get out)
Remember that WILLE aren't the ones who extracted Shinji, EVA-01 restored him in the entry plug by itself, no one thought that it was possible for him to come back.
Shinji's claims that she was with him, that he saved her and that the SDAT was in her entry plug probably made them understand that Shinji was in a sort of other plane of existence where Rei also was, but they still can't interact with said plane, so although Shinji came back by himself, WILLE can't extract Rei, meaning that she's lost forever for the "living".

Misato's claim that Rei "doesn't exist anymore" can be read as "Sorry kiddo, Unit 01 somehow restored you back in human form, but we Lilin still can't do it, so if Unit 01 decided to not restore her, there is nothing we can do about it, Rei's gone."

[LightDragonman]

Shinji's claims that she was with him, that he saved her and that the SDAT was in her entry plug probably made them understand that Shinji was in a sort of other plane of existence where Rei also was, but they still can't interact with said plane, so although Shinji came back by himself, WILLE can't extract Rei, meaning that she's lost forever for the "living".

Misato's claim that Rei "doesn't exist anymore" can be read as "Sorry kiddo, Unit 01 somehow restored you back in human form, but we Lilin still can't do it, so if Unit 01 decided to not restore her, there is nothing we can do about it, Rei's gone."

Very interesting theory there. If that is true, then who knows, maybe Rei will indeed come back.

Heck, if the situation is that Rei is the one who is not allowing Shinji to synchronize with Unit 01, so as to keep him safe, maybe she'll let him pilot it upon realizing that she can't keep him from that forever.

[monitoradiation]

Charsi said that an human alone can brought his Eva into the pseudo-evolved state(when it becomes red and start shooing eyebeams and grow limbs made of pure AT Field), and indeed Shinji was on his own when EVA-01 pseudo-evolved. But to make it awake(absorbing a FoL/someone of the opposite lineage and become all withe an glowy before tearing an hole in the fabric of reality) you need someone else, specifically a SoL. Meaning that had the story happened like in NGE(Rei not absorbed by Zeruel), Shinji would have pseudo-evolved EVA-01(well maybe, not sure that he would had the motivation to go that far if it wasn't to save a loved one), beaten Zeruel to a pulp and then maybe absorbed its FoL, "only" gaining the neat bonus of infinite energy, with the "turning red and eye laser raping you to death" mode unlocked!

Yes I know that Shinji can pseudo-evolve Eva-01. I'm saying that it might not be that an SoL is required to Awaken the pseudo-evolved Eva, but that it could be the case that it requires two pilots who are sync'd in their souls like Kaworu sync'd with Shinji to open Lilith's chamber, and Rei+Shinji certainly could fit under this as well seeing their embrace at the end of 2.22.

[ElMariachi]

Oh, I see now, my bad!

I admit that it's a very interesting theory, that would mean that if WILLE knows about that part(synchronization between pilots being necessary to awake an Evangelion), then they knew that neo-NERV would team Shinji with Kaworu, that would also mean that for FINAL they don't have anything to fear from Shinji anymore, as long as no one else is piloting with him and he doesn't try to save another pilot from inside a core.
But then that would mean that EVA-8+2, if it's dual piloted, could potentially awake too?

And then it raises the question : how was Kaworu supposed to awake Mark.06 all by himself to trigger HIP 14 years ago, before everything has gone to hell?

[Giji Shinka]

And then it raises the question : how was Kaworu supposed to awake Mark.06 all by himself to trigger HIP 14 years ago, before everything has gone to hell?

Maybe Kaworu/Seele were going to force Shinji to dual pilot Mark.06 with Kaworu?

[ElMariachi]

Maybe Kaworu/Seele were going to force Shinji to dual pilot Mark.06 with Kaworu?

But how, since Mark.06 has a single entry plug system?

[Giji Shinka]

But how, since Mark.06 has a single entry plug system?

Well.....I guess it maybe had another plug system, but we just didn't see it.....I dunno. Pretty bad theory.

[monitoradiation]

Maybe Kaworu/Seele were going to force Shinji to dual pilot Mark.06 with Kaworu?

Perhaps they force injected the 12th angel into an eva unit to make mk. 6. And as angels may not have AT fields that separate their hearts, kaworu easily sync'd with it?

[ElMariachi]

But Angels do have an AT Field, that's the main reason NERV has been building various Evangelions do begin with, because they were the only thing able to destroy another AT Field(that's it, until technology marches on and 14 years later we got anti-AT Field ammo)

And isn't Mark.06 supposed to have been created from one of the four ADAMs? SEELE was still experimenting on machine/Angel interfacing in Bethany Base by the time of Mark.06's construction, and they were obviously still far from mastering the control of Angels through technology, so why take the risk to shape one as an Evangelion and give it to the boy who will serve as the trigger for HIP, that's taking an insane amount of risks.

[monitoradiation]

But Angels do have an AT Field, that's the main reason NERV has been building various Evangelions do begin with, because they were the only thing able to destroy another AT Field(that's it, until technology marches on and 14 years later we got anti-AT Field ammo)

Their AT field isnt always on.... And their AT fields dont separate their hearts like it does for Lilin... And they can manipulate theirs much better than Lilin can... So if Kaworu's like "yo lets sync up" the 12th might be like "lol k"

And isn't Mark.06 supposed to have been created from one of the four ADAMs? SEELE was still experimenting on machine/Angel interfacing in Bethany Base by the time of Mark.06's construction, and they were obviously still far from mastering the control of Angels through technology, so why take the risk to shape one as an Evangelion and give it to the boy who will serve as the trigger for HIP, that's taking an insane amount of risks.

Well, im not sure when mk 6 went autonomous... Or even what that means, really. It could mean that its got a dummy that Seele can control or that the insertion of the 12th means that it doesnt need a dummy to function. Im just throwing scenarios out there hahah, no guarantee that they'll make sense.

[ElMariachi]

Their AT field isnt always on.... And their AT fields dont separate their hearts like it does for Lilin... And they can manipulate theirs much better than Lilin can... So if Kaworu's like "yo lets sync up" the 12th might be like "lol k"

But as I said, SEELE didn't even managed to keep an Angel under control yet, so to keep an hypothetic 12th nder control, Kaworu would have to be constantly synchronized with it, but even he need to sleep from time to time.

Besides Mark.06 wasn't grown, or created by manipulating an Angel, but dig up from the Moon, the giant green-skinned humanoid with the purple mask you briefly see in 2.0 is its true appearance, that clearly means that it's made from a "repurposed" ADAM and not an Angel.

Well, im not sure when mk 6 went autonomous... Or even what that means, really. It could mean that its got a dummy that Seele can control or that the insertion of the 12th means that it doesnt need a dummy to function. Im just throwing scenarios out there hahah, no guarantee that they'll make sense.

I think the simplest answer is the best : SEELE perfect the Dummy System technology and put an entry plug with an activated Dummy System on the Mark.06, like the Dummy System used on the Mark.09 in Q.

As for what the 12th Angel was doing inside Mark.06, it could have tried the same strategy as Zeruel : take possession of an Evangelion to gain access to Lilith's Chamber without triggering the self-destruct mechanism, and hey, maybe it's also the one who decapitated Lilith : he couldn't get out from Mark.06 body to fuse with Lilith because then the Magi would had detected his blue pattern and blow-up the place, so he beheaded Lilith, installed the possessed body of Mark.06 on Lilith's neck stump, and used the Eva as a "middleman" to trigger Third Impact. Thankfully by doing it like that the process went slower than if the 12th Angel fused directly with her, which let to the Lilin enough time to grab the spear of Cassius and use it on the possessed Mark.06(maybe a repaired EVA-02, or 08, or maybe even the unseen EVA-07 piloted by Toji, who knows). As for the FoIs and the "coreification" of the surrounding landscape, maybe that was an automatic reaction from Lilith's body, a sort of immune reaction against an invading foreign body.

That would explain what her head was doing in the Command Center : it was on top of a small mountain of FoIs, standing on their hands, so the FoIs weren't chasing for the head, they brought it there, as a reflex to take the "sane" tissues(the head) as far as possible from the infected tissue(the rest of the body infected by the 12th Angel). Also notices that the FoIs holding Lilith's head are far smaller than the other Eva-sized ones, maybe they were created specifically to put the head to safety.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Today I was just thinking to myself if this theory was brought up already!

My take is roughly this:

Rei 2 (Lilith) + "special" Eva-01 (an Adams?) and Kaworu (Adams or something else?) + "special" Eva 13 (An Adams?) = the true Impact Triggers. Shinji's just "along for the ride", to do his part of Eva awakenings, then the special elements (whatever it is that's going on with Rei/Kaworu/Evas!) take care of the rest.

What'd make this doubly interesting is Shinji was falsely accused, thus the horrible misunderstandings we saw in 3.0 = in other words, the norm for Eva. Of course, he'd still have to own up to making things right somehow, in the current world...

Though if it turns out Shinji is an actual Trigger, he was still being puppeted by Gendo and Seele regardless.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well first we need to know what being an "Impact Trigger" exactly means, if it's just to have the power to Awake an Eva, which will then automatically try to get its hands in a FoL to start an Impact, then yes, he's an Impact Trigger (the "trigger" in this case being very indirect, as it's just the first step in a reaction chain)

But on the other hand, before the time skip SEELE intended to use the Mark.06 as the medium for the HIP, and it had only one pilot sit, implying that Kaworu too has the power to awake an Eva. Unless he (and maybe Rei) only serve to maintain the Impact Vortex open and that they need to have their Eva take an Angel core before awakening, and can't put it on Pseudo-Evolved Mode like Shinji can...

And there's also the fact that in 3.0 when Kaworu died, the Impact Vortex stayed open until Mari ejected Shinji, meaning that he does seem to have some influence to the Impact proper, to take into account.


Raaaaaaaah so much possibilities, so little information!

[unitM]

The only issue I see this thread suffering from is the mutual exclusiveness of triggers

A trigger is something that causes something to happen. In that sense, Shinji, Kaworu, and Rei can all be considered triggers. I can't see why they weren't unless you're talking about the "real" trigger(in an ordered fashion).

Shinji was the trigger because he pushed 13 over the edge. He triggered something in 13.
Rei was spotted in the angel that overwhelmed 13 at several points in the activation scene. No doubt she was responsible for triggering something in the events of the activation too.
Kaworu explicitly states he was a trigger.

Hell, it's not wrong to say 13 was a trigger too; it triggered 4I.

It appeared that these triggers all have something in common, and that was that they were orchestrated by Gendo. Kaworu even admits that he was tricked by Gendo, so at some level, his actions too were orchestrated.

[ElMariachi]

Except that "Impact Trigger" seems to be a very specific term, specifically referring to people with a specific power of triggering the awakening of and Evangelion and an Impact with it. (which imply that if a Dummy System controlled Eva absorbs an Angel, it won't awake, or at least not immediately)

[Bagheera]

Shinji certainly seems to be able to awaken Evas all by his lonesome. He also seems to be able to sustain Impact events unassisted. So, while Rei and Kaworu might also be triggers, I don't see how Shinji can fail to be signficant in his own right.

The lack of focus on Rei and Kaworu is curious, though, given the fact that they also were heavily involved in their respective events.

[ElMariachi]

The lack of focus on Rei and Kaworu is curious, though, given the fact that they also were heavily involved in their respective events.

Well, by the time the whole Impact Trigger mojo was namedropped and they became the center of attention to everyone, Rei was already dead/irremediably absorbed inside EVA-01/whatever the hell happened to her, and Kaworu is a mere satellite character to Shinji who seems to be constantly keeping his cards close to his heart, so it's not odd that there's little focus on them, beside everything we have to learn about Impact Triggers will already be learned via Shinji (eventually, if Shin Eva decides to give us some explanations), so there's not really a need to make a duplicate with Rei or Kaworu.