development of evas (& Rei, & dummy plugs)

[pwhodges]

We never see any evidence of ATF use by the MPEs.

I thought I remembered some statement about it; but on looking around, I find I am confused by the manga. In the manga, when the MPEs have captured Unit-01, started their S2 engines, and formed the Tree of the Sephiroth, someone in Nerv says an anti-AT field has formed (and shortly after they detect an AT field from Lilith as she rises from Central Dogma in the form of GNR).

It's not clear what the source of the anti-AT field is, though.

[Bagheera]

I always thought the bit about the MPEs' ATFs resonating was a bit strange, since they were explicitly emitting anti-ATFs at the time. It doesn't make sense to emit both at once, so I wonder if that wasn't a mistranslation, or even a goof in the original script.

[Falcon_of_the_Sun]

I always thought the bit about the MPEs' ATFs resonating was a bit strange, since they were explicitly emitting anti-ATFs at the time. It doesn't make sense to emit both at once, so I wonder if that wasn't a mistranslation, or even a goof in the original script.

I think that even if they had AT Fields, it doesn't disprove that you need a pilot soul to get a proper/better AT Field capable of, for instance, rivalling that on an Angel.
Rei's decision to stay in the Entry Plug in ep 23 confirms that IMO.

[pwhodges]

Maybe the anti-AT fields were to break down Unit-01's AT field to bring it into the ritual.

[Shinoyami65]

I always thought the bit about the MPEs' ATFs resonating was a bit strange, since they were explicitly emitting anti-ATFs at the time. It doesn't make sense to emit both at once, so I wonder if that wasn't a mistranslation, or even a goof in the original script.

I always assumed the resonance of the ATFs (the weird coloured circles that surround the MPEs during the Tree scene) caused the formation of the Anti-ATF. I guess it's all up in the air unless we get a better translation, though.

[Chuckman]

I thought the anti AT-field came from Giant Naked Rei. Isn't it first mentioned when she starts moving through the base?

There's two rituals, two Forbidden Unions of Adam and Lilith happening at the same time- the MPEs start gangbanging Yui while the actual Adam and Lilith are merging down in the inexplicable battleship room.

[pwhodges]

I thought the anti AT-field came from Giant Naked Rei. Isn't it first mentioned when she starts moving through the base?

In the manga it's explicitly an AT field at that point, though that doesn't seem terribly appropriate as she is moving through people.

[Bagheera]

To clarify: the MPEs deployed anti-ATFs early on, though we saw no noticeable effect until Seele started their little magic ritual. At that point they (somehow) unearthed the Black Moon and set things in motion. Their ATFs supposedly resonated when they formed the Tree of Life/Sephiroth configuration, but this makes no sense since they had anti-ATFs deployed at the time.

GNR is a completely separate affair; once she arrives on the scene the MPEs and their Anti-ATFs fade into obsolescence, since the real deal has shown up and is ready to get down to business. At this point they just sit there obediently while she does her thing.

So, MPE anti-ATFs = Seele "magic", Lilith anti-ATF = tang the world. Yui's a non-factor at this point, since she's just waiting around until Lilith finishes whatever she's doing and gets started transforming Unit 01/Yui into a SoL.

None of this even begins to explain how the hell GNR went intangible. I got nothin' there. Don't think anyone does.

[Chuckman]

It's magic, she doesn't have to explain it.

She doesn't really physically interact with anything until her head splashes into the ground. She may actually be completely intangible the entire time. She's either intangible or she conjured like a quarter of the earth's mass out of thin air.

[NemZ]

What the hell does any of this have to do with Rei and/or eva development? Let's try and drift back to some TOPIC.

[Bagheera]

What the hell does any of this have to do with Rei and/or eva development? Let's try and drift back to some TOPIC.

It ties in directly with the question of how and why Rei can manifest such a power ATF, and whether or not she's made of some exotic matter vs. normal human flesh. This in turn influences the question of her origins, i.e. whether she was cloned "normally" (to the extent human cloning can ever be said to be normal) or via budding or whatever from Lilith.

[pwhodges]

Where does the Death & Rebirth Theatrical Theatre Program (Special Edition) sit in the hierarchy of canon? It appears to have a massive disconnect from the series when it says in the biography of Rei:

A Children (qualified person) from the day she was born.
Living together with Eva for 14 years, her life was one with the Project.

which is entirely incompatible with her being cloned (in whatever manner) after Yui's contact experiment.

[thewayneiac]

Where does the Death & Rebirth Theatrical Theatre Program (Special Edition) sit in the hierarchy of canon? It appears to have a massive disconnect from the series when it says in the biography of Rei:

which is entirely incompatible with her being cloned (in whatever manner) after Yui's contact experiment.

Theatrical programs are 3rd tier cannon: Official Supplemental Material. They are cannon only as long as they don't conflict with higher tiered cannon (or the bulk of other 3rd tier cannon).

[Falcon_of_the_Sun]

Specifically to the D&R ones, I would consider them lower canon than the RCB because the RCB came later.

"was born" does not conclude the exact modus and place of birth, while I guess that it's no surprise that if there was one person able to pilot an Eva (especially Eva-01), that person would be somebody made of the matter & soul of the creature the Eva was cloned from plus some DNA of the person whose resident soul is in the Eva: Rei.
Also, both Toji and Shinji were Children before they touched an Eva and MAYBE there was a chance that neither could really sync, so the Children title may not always indicate a 100% bulletproof guarantee of Eva pilotability?

[Bagheera]

Theatrical programs are 3rd tier cannon: Official Supplemental Material. They are cannon only as long as they don't conflict with higher tiered cannon (or the bulk of other 3rd tier cannon).

True, though as a point of order it's canon, not cannon. We're talking bodies of work, not pre-modern artillery!

[thewayneiac]

True, though as a point of order it's canon, not cannon. We're talking bodies of work, not pre-modern artillery!

Ouch! I hadn't made that mistake in years.

[UrsusArctos]

True, though as a point of order it's canon, not cannon. We're talking bodies of work, not pre-modern artillery!

The word "cannon" is not merely for pre-modern artillery. Aircraft and tank guns still use the word "cannon", and so do CIWS weapons on warships. Take it from a military nerd. But yes, the word is canon, not cannon.

And as for canon versus cannon, I'll leave this link here. The illustration shows what happens in ship to ship combat, but it would also apply to theory versus canon, or theory versus theory pretty well. Jokes aside, I think the tiers of canonicity have really helped sort out things.

[ShockTrance]

So, we know that Eva-01 was created by somehow triggering a growth off of Lilith's lower body, but what about for the Adam-based Evas? It couldn't have been through the same method; Adam is nothing more than an embryo at that point, and, by the time of the creation of the MP Evas, Adam is either encased in Bakelite or fused with Gendo's palm.

Regarding Rei, if she were an exact genetic clone of Yui, then she should have the same eye and hair colors, even if she is composed of PWM. Either her genetics were altered to make her an albino or there are shenanigans going on involving Lilith's soul having an influence on Rei's hair and eye pigments. That, or there's some other possibility that I'm missing.

An Eva's ATF is generated by the resident soul, but it seems that the Eva has to be activated in order for ATF projection to be possible. That said, although the pilots certainly are the ones who control when and how the Eva's ATF is projected, I don't think that the pilot's soul is involved in the ATF generation. If the pilot's ATF were projected out in front of the Eva, then wouldn't the pilot fall apart into LCL due to having nothing holding their shape together?

We never see any evidence of ATF use by the MPEs.

Perhaps we don't see them while Asuka is fighting them because she's neutralizing them with Eva-02's ATF?

It ties in directly with the question of how and why Rei can manifest such a power ATF, and whether or not she's made of some exotic matter vs. normal human flesh.

I got the impression that Rei was able to generate such a powerful field due to her having a SoL soul, hence why her field was equal in strength to Kaworu's.[/quote]

[Bagheera]

An Eva's ATF is generated by the resident soul, but it seems that the Eva has to be activated in order for ATF projection to be possible. That said, although the pilots certainly are the ones who control when and how the Eva's ATF is projected, I don't think that the pilot's soul is involved in the ATF generation. If the pilot's ATF were projected out in front of the Eva, then wouldn't the pilot fall apart into LCL due to having nothing holding their shape together?

No moreso than the Angels or Evas themselves. The ATF is projected, not removed.

Perhaps we don't see them while Asuka is fighting them because she's neutralizing them with Eva-02's ATF?

Unlikely. We know what that looks like from the Angel battles.

I got the impression that Rei was able to generate such a powerful field due to her having a SoL soul, hence why her field was equal in strength to Kaworu's.

That is my position, certainly. ATFs and power hacks are a product of the soul, with the body only given them a medium through which to operate.

[ShockTrance]

No moreso than the Angels or Evas themselves. The ATF is projected, not removed.

Perhaps so. Do recall that Evas and Angels are made up of PWM, which retains its shape even without an ATF to support it. We never see a non-Angelic human project an ATF during the series, however, so I guess we ultimately can't know for certain if they'd dissolve or not.

Unlikely. We know what that looks like from the Angel battles.

That's true. Then again, the MP Evas didn't seem to take the battle with Asuka seriously until the very end, so perhaps they CAN project ATFs, but simply didn't during that battle?

We know that Evangelions can't move (usually) unless synchronized with a pilot or a dummy plug, and we know that synchronization involves communications between the resident soul of an Evangelion and the pilot's soul/the psuedo-soul of a dummy plug (or however the dummy plug works). Thus, since the MP Evas activate and move around, the dummy plugs must be synchronizing with them. As such, we can conclude that the MP Evas have resident souls. Therefore, the MP Evas are at least theoretically capable of projecting ATFs, even if we never see definite usage of them.

On-topic: I just remembered the failed Evangelion prototypes, which, being the failed attempts to create Eva-00, were probably Adam-based. All of those were created long before Kaji brought the Adam embryo to Nerv, making the question of how they were made even muddier. As the series itself is frustratingly silent on the matter, do any outside sources mention how the Adam-based Evas were developed?