The Meaning of the Lyrics of "Betrayal"

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The Meaning of the Lyrics of "Betrayal"

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Postby Na7e » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:35 am

[Split from The Moral of Rebuild. If it wanders back to the original topic I'll just merge it back in. - Monk]

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:The narrative says at most that if you behave this way, this will result -- it doesn't actually judge Shinji for what his actions wreak, nor are Wille ever conclusively portrayed to be correct in their assignment of blame upon him for 3I.


Betrayal BGM wrote:With vengeance retribution will be sought with time
the sacrifice the crime


Apostles feed upon the flesh and in return the poor soul reaches our
wrest crippled mental torture the chance to be inmortal

Once friends betrayed so ruthless, now dead his friend and friendship
Once friends betrayed so heartless, memories crushed to ashes


This plays when Shinji goes for the spears at the climax of 3.0, and I don't think Anno would've have just plugged in this song with these lyrics for shits and giggles.

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Postby Na7e » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:52 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:I don't even know what the hell those bolded words mean.


Shinji wasn't just throwing out meaningless words when he said he didn't give a shit about himself, or the world. He was totally willing to end it at all for Rei. And, because of his dickery he got to take a 14 year nap as punishment for his actions.

First two lines are about Shinji's actions at the end of 2.0.

Second two lines are about Unit-01/Yui eating Zeruel/GNR before Kaworu stops it by spearing Shinji.

Final two lines are about because Shinji is a traitor he killed Kaworu, and ruined his relationships with Misato and everyone else.

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:57 am

Yep. Those lyrics clearly portray Shinji as Hitler, who killed everyone. He deserves a bullet. Anno said so.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:42 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Shinji wasn't just throwing out meaningless words when he said he didn't give a shit about himself, or the world. He was totally willing to end it at all for Rei. And, because of his dickery he got to take a 14 year nap as punishment for his actions.

When he said he didn't care about the world, he didn't mean he might destroy it without caring, he meant that he wouldn't let the world which he had just saved dictate his every action - i.e., that he was going to try to save Rei regardless.

First two lines are about Shinji's actions at the end of 2.0.

They don't say whether the retribution is justified, though. (But it's hard to parse the English, so it's not really clear what it's even saying.)

Second two lines are about Unit-01/Yui eating Zeruel/GNR before Kaworu stops it by spearing Shinji.

Can't really make anything of those lines - perhaps they merely say that Zeruel has eaten Rei, and Shinji tries to rescue her and gain everlasting gratitude (immortality can mean as little as fame or notoriety).

Final two lines are about because Shinji is a traitor he killed Kaworu, and ruined his relationships with Misato and everyone else.

Again, the English is hard to parse; to me it's not clear whether Shinji is being described as the betrayer or the betrayed.

I certainly wouldn't want to make any hard decisions about the meaning of the films on the basis of this English translation of a background song.
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Postby Na7e » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:06 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I certainly wouldn't want to make any hard decisions about the meaning of the films on the basis of this English translation of a background song.


The problem is that isn't an English translation of a background song. Those are the actual lyrics, Betrayal is sung entirely in English.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:24 am

Wait, why would the song playing at the climax of 3.0 talk about the events of the previous movie?
Wouldn't it be logical that the lyrics talk about what's happening right now?

The last two lines being a foreshadowing that "his friend"(Kaworu) is about to die because of Shinji's "betrayal", he betrayed Kaworu's trust in him by not listening to his pleas to stop, and kaworu will soon pay the price for it(death), while their memories together will be "crushed to ashes".(all the happy memories Shinji has of his time with Kaworu will be tainted by the knowledge that he died by his fault)
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:59 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:The problem is that isn't an English translation of a background song. Those are the actual lyrics, Betrayal is sung entirely in English.

It's not hard to mistake it as a translation when you have a borderline word-salad line like "wrest crippled mental torture the chance to be inmortal".

I can only assume that "our" (instead of out) and "inmortal" are typos, because if they actually said that in English, that would be hilarious.

ElMariachi wrote:Wait, why would the song playing at the climax of 3.0 talk about the events of the previous movie?
Wouldn't it be logical that the lyrics talk about what's happening right now?

It can still be describing what's happening now in terms of how it's a product of what has come before. But for it to be talking about the "now" in the way you describe it would actually be talking about things that have not happened yet.

It's also possible, even likely, given the theme of repetition in Eva, that it's describing the ends of both movies by describing their common elements. (Assuming that Eva-13 counts as an apostle by being an Adam, it does indeed feed on a certain flesh.)

"Now dead his friend" can refer to both Rei and Kaworu.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:24 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:The problem is that isn't an English translation of a background song. Those are the actual lyrics, Betrayal is sung entirely in English.

Oops! However, I doubt that they were originally written in English by a native English speaker (but I don't have documentation to hand of who wrote them, so I could have more egg on face). Either way, they're not so far off gibberish.
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:02 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Oops! However, I doubt that they were originally written in English by a native English speaker (but I don't have documentation to hand of who wrote them, so I could have more egg on face).


BD booklet  SPOILER: Show

Image


Mike Wyzgowski is credited for all the lyrics except for Beethoven's 9th and Sakura Nagashi

Full music credits  SPOILER: Show

Image
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Postby riffraff11235 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:44 am

If I didn't know any better I'd say those were the lyrics to some metal song. :lol:

About that typo: Seems like the original word was "immortal".
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Postby hui43210 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:44 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Shinji wasn't just throwing out meaningless words when he said he didn't give a shit about himself, or the world. He was totally willing to end it at all for Rei. And, because of his dickery he got to take a 14 year nap as punishment for his actions.


I kinda feel people forget this part of 2.0 when they rag on Misato and Willie in 3.0.

Shinji screwed up, simple as that.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:53 am

Yeah, totally screwed up; first he saved the world, then he tried to save a friend - what a dick!

Just remember why there's anybody even alive to hate him.
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Postby hui43210 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Yeah, totally screwed up; first he saved the world, then he tried to save a friend - what a dick!

Just remember why there's anybody even alive to hate him.


Again, fully admitted he didn't give a shit about the rest of the world, just Rei.

Oh, and Kawrou saved what was left of the world, everyone would've died otherwise.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:29 pm

As far as I know Wyzgowski was responsible for the lyrics of Komm susser Tod and Everything you've ever dreamed.
He adapted the lyrics from Anno's original lyrics though, and he probably needed Anno's approval.
Does that mean it's the same process in Rebuild?
In NGE, Death and EoE Anno was also responsible for the names of the songs. Is it still the same? According to the Schizo/Parano interview there was some meaning behind those names.
So has Anno something to do or is it just Wyzgowski? Is Anno just responsible for the names?
Depending on that I would take these songs into account or wouldn't.
...We don't know, right? :um:
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:17 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Does that mean it's the same process in Rebuild?

In the first case the credits say he adapted Anno's writing; in Rebuild they don't.

is it just Wyzgowski? [...] ...We don't know, right? :um:

The Internet has startlingly little information on Wyzgowski, to the extent that I wondered for quite a while if he was actually a fake name (but I don't think he is).
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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:12 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:In the first case the credits say he adapted Anno's writing; in Rebuild they don't.


What if Anno just thought "Nobody is gonna care anyways." He doesn't necessarily think about evageeks users that want to analyze the song.
But it also makes sense that they could just have called him again and this time made him write the lyrics alone.

In general there isn't that much info about Evangelions production...
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:03 pm

It's obvious that the lyrics are a result of close collaboration by Anno, Wyzgowski, and Sagisu. No, Anno probably don't pen these lyrics in the NTE scores. There are way too many for him to devote that much time and effort into writing such things when he's got to re-think, re-write, and re-render scenes and CGI shots until they feel just right. But these lyrics follow major themes of the films too closely in order for them just to be fluff and stuff in order to pad out the sonic scope of the soundtrack.

Take "The Wrath of God in All its Fury," for example. When taken in context of Beethoven's 9th Symphony and the events taking place on screen at the time each music cue starts, both songs explore the different reactions to 4th Impact's creation of a god. Beethoven's 9th, "Choral," starts when Seele is dismantled before seeing their version of Impact come about. As a result, the music choice is rather joyful, joyful, all ye brethren about creating a god because it's from the point of view Seele. When it negatively effect Misato and the rest of Wille, the music fades into "The Wrath of God" without missing a beat, which is strikingly different in its tone and lyrical message. It shifts from joyfully entering Elysium's sanctuary drunk with fire to a frantic musical explosion with the choir singing about the wrath of God being unlocked in all its fury. This happens because Wille is fearful of this god Seele has awoken.

So, within terms of "Betrayal," we need to ask who's being betrayed and how they're being betrayed. In the movie, the last two lines of the BGM aren't actually sung. It might be a nit-pick, but I think it's important to only analyze what's in the film when discussing the plot points and themes in the film:

Betrayal, in the film, wrote:With vengeance retribution will be sought with time
the sacrifice of the crime

Apostles feed upon the flesh and in return the poor soul reaches out
wrest crippled mental torture the chance to be immortal

The last part is easy. The same word used in the original Japanese dub for Angel is "Shito," which can also mean "Apostle." (Both basically mean "Messenger.") Evas are (presumably in this continuity) derived from the Angels, and we've seen both Angel and Eva use their mouths a LOT when it comes to battle situation. Unit 01 bites Asuka's Entry Plug, Unit 02 bits at the 10th Angel's AT Field, the 10th Angel eats Unit 00 along with Rei, Unit 13 eats the 12 Angel, and Mark.09 bites at Unit 02 Dash's head. (If we include Rei II as an Angel, then we also have her trying to cook meals in order to reunite Shinji with his father. Though Rei doesn't eat meat, so "flesh" is out of the question.) In return "the poor soul reaches out, wrest (= forcibly pulled) crippled mental torture the chance to be immortal." Shinji is being forcibly pulled into mental torture for a chance to be immortal. (Possible clue to the motives behind one of the versions of Human Instrumentality in Eva.)

(Also, fun double entendre, "wrest" is also a key for tuning a piano. Yay, reference to piano symbolisms in Q!)

The first half is the hard part. It starts playing as soon as Shinji scales Lilith's corpse for the spears. Maybe it's just another clue as to what Human Instrumentality is meant to do.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:28 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The Internet has startlingly little information on Wyzgowski, to the extent that I wondered for quite a while if he was actually a fake name (but I don't think he is).


I found some info....
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Postby Angel of Will » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:31 pm

I have this hypothesis that all of Rebuild of Evangelion's Operatic pieces where written to John Milton's 'Paradise Lost'.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:39 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The Internet has startlingly little information on Wyzgowski, to the extent that I wondered for quite a while if he was actually a fake name (but I don't think he is).


One of the places they recorded 3.0 OST was Warsaw and Wyzgowski's Polish. (Or at least Polish-British). I don't think it's a pen name for somebody either.

I remember stumbling across this years ago, dunno how accurate it is: http://www.last.fm/music/Mike+Wyzgowski (Similar page for Arianne too.)
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