Failures of Infinity: Don't lose your head!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Jinroh » Tue May 07, 2013 5:27 pm

Well, we don't know if the core is exposed during third impact continuation. Maybe shogoki had been repaired since the last events.

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Postby Charsi » Tue May 07, 2013 9:44 pm

Well the question is essentially: How? I think based on the posts here the logical conclusion is Eva-01 continued N3I, with Shinji at the helm (or so they think). The failures looking like Eva-01's pretty much conclusively states that. Whatever the 12th Angel was up to, it didn't succeed and wasn't the template for the event that created all the failures.

It explains the hatred (provided we get the how). And the DSS choker explains that without Shinji, Eva-01 isn't scary. It's safe enough to put in a giant pod and tap it as a power source. Therefore they must be pretty damn sure that without it's pilot, it won't go starting an impact on its own. The DSS choker essentially asserts no pilot, no instrumentality.

I suspect/theorize from this that a pilotless - soulless? - Eva is useless in terms of a broader instrumentality. This plus one more observation leads me to what is probably a better explanation for what happened in Terminal Dogma: If you look at Eva-06 where it is merged with Lilith, it's gripping the spear that impales it with both hands. It hasn't been impaled by a defender - it's impaling itself! So where did it get that spear it's impaling itself with? Obviously not from Lilith, and there's only one other spear handy.

The rest is what I previously posited: once freed, Eva-01 - with Shinji still inside - simply picked up where it left off.

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Postby K40s » Wed May 08, 2013 2:52 am

Enjoy! :D
Coloured FoIs pans  SPOILER: Show
Last edited by K40s on Sun May 12, 2013 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby K40s » Wed May 08, 2013 8:50 pm

A few points that I'm pondering:
* the FoIs are on Eva-01's image,
* the FoIs seem to mirror what happened to Lilith (decapitation) and be linked to her somehow,
* the FoIs heads seem to be all the skulls littering Lilith's vault.

* Second Impact might have created the Angels which only became active after 14 years
* Near Third Impact might have created the FoIs
* Eva-04 pseudo-impact might have created the Mark-04 A, B and C

Could the 14 years time-skip have been needed for the FoIs and/or Mark-04 to become active?

The things that don't fit with the above statement are:
* Lilith, Mark-06 and the FoIs tampon have been sealed for 14 years, so all that happened before the time-skip
* The skulls are not heads, they are skulls, which also indicates that the FoIs activated and got decapitated 14 years ago and not recently. :um:

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun May 12, 2013 2:04 pm

This thread has been split out from the Impact mechanics thread. Here's hoping that the patients both recover.
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Postby Charsi » Sun May 12, 2013 11:49 pm

The split is really helpful. It revealed something pretty amazing from a few pages back: The theory that the FOI are swarming, like ants. It makes so much sense.

More tomorrow, I guess.

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Postby K40s » Mon May 13, 2013 2:47 am

This is the sequence of events I think surround the FoIs:
SPOILER: Show
* FoIs spawn? from the "turned to core" Tokyo-3?
* All the viable FoIs congregate in Central Dogma around Lilith?
* Malformed FoIs remain stuck in Tokyo-3 outskirts.

* Lilith phases through buildings? up to Command Center
* Lilith gets her head cut off, the head materializes and remains in CC

* FoIs loose their heads, mirroring Lilith?
* FoIs' heads litter the floor of Lilith's Vault

* Lilith's headless body phases? back to CD

*? Lilth's Cross drops on FoIs heads
*? VTOLs crash on FoIs heads
*? Headless Lilith's body crawls on FoIs heads

* The now Headless FoIs go up, split in two groups: one for plugging the Main Shaft's bottom to protect Lilith's headless body while another group go all the way up to CC with the intent of carrying Lilith's head back to CD and reunite it with her headless body.

* Lilith's headless body gets speared.
* Lilith freezes in-place.
* FoIs freeze in-place.
* Headless FoIs plug gets cut through (like the 3rd Angel sliced a clean cylinder through Bethany Base's Limbo Area?)

*? Mark.06 attaches to Lilith's neck stub
*? Mark.06 spears herself.

* Lilith's Barrier (the lid that Eva-13th opens) is created, sealing everything in

* 14 year time-skip happens
* FoIs heads turn into skulls?
The ones grouped together pretty much happen in that order, everything in bold is known for a fact, the groups with "*?" could take place at different points depending on what actually happened... i.e. the FoIs freezing in-place must have happened before the FoIs plug gets cut through, so maybe Lilith headless body gets speared first, Lilith and the FoIs freeze, then the hole through the FoIs plug gets cut and finally Mark.06 attaches and spears herself?
There must be a reason for the FoIs plug to get cut through, something wanted to access Lilith's Vault, the 12th Angel pulled a cut through the plug like the 3rd did? Mark.06 used her halo to cut through the FoIs plug?

Thoughts?

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Postby Charsi » Mon May 13, 2013 8:03 am

The thought I had, which I couldn't really type out last night, was that i've had everything backwards. I always thought EVA-06 and what it's doing with Lilith was somehow evil. What if EVA-01 is causing the impact (the bad guy) and EVA-06 does everything to bring it to a halt (the good guy)?

For this to hang together, Lilith needs to be involved in the impact ceremony. There is a precedent for this in EoE, but in this case I can't imagine the ceremony got anywhere near as far as it did then. Lilith woke up (at least, the face mask fell off) and that's about as far as she got before getting beheaded.

This is where the FoI's come in. It occurs to me that the FoI's are more like the embodiment of LCL. Perhaps in swarming like they do, they are trying to form a linkage beween the head (in the command center, which is up in the sky pyramid in 3.33) and the body which is all the way down at what is now ground level. It seems logical that the route they take is the giant elevator shaft Misato took Shinji down in 2.22. They are swarming in vain up the shaft to reach the disembodied head - always crawling upwards, reaching upwards. I suspect the FoI's formed at Lilith, perhaps from the LCL/blood that came gushing out of her neck in response to being beheaded. They don't have any heads themselves and are swarming upwards to reach the head "they" lost.

Why do they look like EVA-01? Since Lilith and EVA-01 are both involved in the impact ceremony - reminiscent of EoE.

So to me the chain of events is imo:

1. Something happens (12th Angel? EoE-like invasion?) and N3I resumes
2. Lilith starts to get involved in the ceremony / process (precedent from EoE)
3. Catastrophic impact effects start
4. Lilith is beheaded
5. FoI form and swarm towards the head
6. EVA-06 merges with Lilith to take over the impact process
7. EVA-06 spears itself, freezing the whole montage
8. Lilith's barrier is created to keep anyone from interfering a second time

Cleanup:

- EVA-06 is infected by the 12th Angel. When this happens is not clear but Asuka is certainly surprised the Angel isn't dead.
- EVA-06/Lilith (in charge of a halted 3I) is sealed off to prevent any more screwing around.
- EVA-01 is put in a tesseract and shot into orbit.

With the 12th Angel gone, the Angels were supposedly finished. Therefore, all the remaining threats are from terrestrial sources. Placing EVA-01 out of the reach of most resources/nations seems logical. EVA-06/Lilith isn't really movable, so they just coffin the whole thing.

Everyone thinks the 12th Angel is dead/gone, everyone blames Shinji (since EVA-01 was used in the ceremony with Lilith), and Lilith is beheaded/merged/speared.

Sound decent?

Side note:

The more I think about this the more it feels like a takeover/impact akin to - but greatly toned down from - EoE took place between 2.22 and 3.33.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon May 13, 2013 7:50 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:They are swarming in vain up the shaft to reach the disembodied head - always crawling upwards, reaching upwards.

This is indeed very clear. All of the FoIs are desperately trying to reach Lilith's head.

However they have all been petrified as well. It seems to me the only things we can state with absolute certainty are:

1. Something cause the FoIs to "go mad", and begin scrambling towards Lilith/Lilith's head.
2. Something later cause the FoIs to become frozen on the spot.

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Everyone thinks the 12th Angel is dead/gone, everyone blames Shinji (since EVA-01 was used in the ceremony with Lilith), and Lilith is beheaded/merged/speared.

I'm not convinced everyone does blame Shinji for Third Impact. Asuka even state when the 12th Angel is released that they need to stop it before Third Impact resumes. Eva-06 and the 12th Angel appear to be the cause of Third Impact, not Shinji. Going back to the FoIs, perhaps it was the termination or "suspension" of Third Impact which caused them to petrify. So perhaps Third Impact was what caused them to go mad.

View Original PostCharsi wrote:The more I think about this the more it feels like a takeover/impact akin to - but greatly toned down from - EoE took place between 2.22 and 3.33.

We're getting back to impact mechanics here, but EoE is definitely being at least referenced by Q. However, only portions of Air could ever actually have taken place. Nothing that happens after Shinji enters Eva-01 could possibly be canonical in Q.
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Postby Charsi » Mon May 13, 2013 7:59 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I'm not convinced everyone does blame Shinji for Third Impact. Asuka even state when the 12th Angel is released that they need to stop it before Third Impact resumes. Eva-06 and the 12th Angel appear to be the cause of Third Impact, not Shinji. Going back to the FoIs, perhaps it was the termination or "suspension" of Third Impact which caused them to petrify. So perhaps Third Impact was what caused them to go mad.


That's more or less what I think. Small nitpick though: I don't think the remarks have anything to do with Eva-06. The only person that really mentions Eva-06 (from a quick rewatch) is Shinji. Asuka is concerned about the 12th Angel and stopping it. But Asuka ALSO says "are you trying to cause the 3rd Impact again?" to Shinji when fighting Eva-13's hoppers.

So the inference I draw from Asuka's dialogue is they both had parts to play in N3I and both bear responsibility. The only way it works (in my head, at least right now) is if the 12th Angel commandeers Lilith and that somehow resumes Eva-01's ascension/N3I. That's really the only way to explain why the FoI look like little Eva-01's too, and why they would be seeking Lilith's head, and why Lilith's head would be unmasked and far away from her body.

It seems to fit the idea that Eva-06 was being the "good guy" in all of this and speared itself to bring the whole process to a halt. Don't want to get too far off the topic of FoI's though. This thread has convinced me they are based on Eva-01 and are swarming for Lilith's disembodied head. I'm simply fanwanking a vaguely plausible storyline that ties together those details. One that will no doubt get blown away in the first few seconds of Final ;)

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Postby Jinroh » Mon May 13, 2013 8:06 pm

We still don't know what role the 11th angel and unit 08 had in all this, especially since all angels appear in canonical order. I wouldn't be surprised if that angel was responsible for a part of the damage done to the HQ.

But the biggest mystery stays unit 01's role during third impact. I don't get why those FoIs look like her.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue May 14, 2013 4:28 am

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I'm not convinced everyone does blame Shinji for Third Impact. Asuka even state when the 12th Angel is released that they need to stop it before Third Impact resumes. Eva-06 and the 12th Angel appear to be the cause of Third Impact, not Shinji. Going back to the FoIs, perhaps it was the termination or "suspension" of Third Impact which caused them to petrify. So perhaps Third Impact was what caused them to go mad.

Maybe Shinji's N3I caused the detention of all NERV personnel like we saw in the preview, and the protection of Lilith was assigned to the JSSDF, explaining all these tanks, hummers and VTOL in the ruins of the old NERV and in Lilith's chamber. To assist them : Mark.06, refitted as an autonomous unit. As for Unit-01, it stayed on confinement, still speared by Mark.06 and surrounded by Angel-sealing Hex pillars, until SEELE decides what to do with it.

If SEELE's influence is the same that it was in NGE, then they controlled in the shadows most of the worlds governments and organisations, including the IPEA and the Japanese government, and thus indirectly the JSSDF.

So by detaining all of NERV personnel for "interrogation", putting the officers of the JSSDF on charge with Mark.06, SEELE took control of NERV's HQ from Gendo, as a punishment for awakening Unit-01 while it was Mark.06 the one which was planed to become a "true god", and to make sure that he don't pull others shady schemes on their backs.
As for why Mark.06 was made into an autonomous unit? Maybe SEELE needed Kaworu somewhere else, maybe they didn't wanted to risk the life of the First Angel because the SDSS scenario said that he must stay alive; or maybe they didn't trusted him enough to let him pilot Mark.06 anymore, who knows?

So maybe WILLE think that had Shinji didn't pulled that little stunt against Zeruel and launched N3I, SEELE wouldn't have been able to take NERV control from them, the ex-NERV personnel from WILLE could have been here when the 12th showed up and would have probably managed the situation far better than the JSSDF, Shinji being them responsible on an indirect level of what happened.
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Postby Jinroh » Tue May 14, 2013 4:35 am

You still forget about the 11th angel (whose role is still unknown) but I agree with everything you said, that's been my theory since the beginning.

edit: Oh, I didn't see your other post :- )

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue May 14, 2013 4:39 am

View Original PostJinroh wrote:You still forget about the 11th angel (whose role is still unknown) but I agree with everything you said, that's been my theory since the beginning.

edit: Oh, I didn't see your other post :- )

Yeah I noticed I was again beginning a big theory about what happened which would be off topic, so I moved my post in the "Explanation of Evangelion 3.0" thread, and made a more concise version here.
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Postby SSJ Spartan01 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:27 pm

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:There is some extra things i would like to bring, like some partialy detailed views of how the Giant Lillith endend merged with mark 6 in the middle of the terminal dogma, but let's see if anyone has the patience to read my bad english and is willing to debate with the things i've already come up with before i bring more stuff.

To me, your post was probably the most insightful I've read on impact mechanics. Please elaborate on what it was you were going to say. We have lots of patience here. Your theory of FOIs being the collectors of souls, akin to the Reis in EoE, is the most interesting part. However, even if that huge chalice-shaped thing that erupted from the ground in 3.0 was the egg of Lilith, it seems the FOIs are more preoccupied with Lilith herself. Why are they referred to as Failures of Infinity anyway? What have they failed in doing, in reaching "infinity"? That's still pretty ambiguous.

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Postby Charsi » Wed May 15, 2013 1:56 pm

I think the failure is clear. An impact was initiated with Lilith and Eva-01 as ceremony participants. The failures of infinity - bearing the look of Eva-01 - strove to reach Lilith's head because reaching it would in some way complete the ceremony. This did not happen. The ascended are therefore rendered frozen/dormant in their failed states.

The armored/evangelion state is (imo) one evolved form, but I do not believe it to be the final evolved form. If you want an idea of what that looks like, look at the end of 2.22: a giant being of light with wings. The failures stopped very much short of that. Therefore the ceremony was aborted.

We see the state of the world at the start of the ceremony (2.22 end) and state of the world after the ceremony is halted (3.33 reveal), but not what happened over the course of the ceremony. It's possible - if not outright stated by the fact that there are no FoI's visible in the post 2.22 credits - that the ceremony/impact paused and resumed several times.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed May 15, 2013 6:26 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Maybe Shinji's N3I caused the detention of all NERV personnel like we saw in the preview, and the protection of Lilith was assigned to the JSSDF, explaining all these tanks, hummers and VTOL in the ruins of the old NERV and in Lilith's chamber. To assist them : Mark.06, refitted as an autonomous unit. As for Unit-01, it stayed on confinement, still speared by Mark.06 and surrounded by Angel-sealing Hex pillars, until SEELE decides what to do with it.

This is actually an intriguing proposal(Though Nerv did have their own tanks, etc). If the preview wasn't lying, then N3I could have resulted in the effective disbandment of Nerv, which could have in turn left whoever took over totally unprepared for what came after. It would also explain the logo change if later on, Nerv returned.

Along these lines, it's worth noting that the MP-Evas are painted in green "military" livery. Perhaps they are meant to be JSSDF models?
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri May 17, 2013 1:54 pm

It's time to correct what I feel is a pretty big misconception concerning the FoIs. Specifically, the FoIs are not shown bursting out of buildings.

The root of this misconception appears to be this shot showing the body of a headless FoI lying partially outside an apartment block building. (I've converted a few of these images to greyscale to hopefully make things a little easier to see)
Fallen FoI  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg width=800]Eva3-33 C0804 comp grey.jpg[/wkimg]

It's already been noted that this FoI is wearing full armor, and has mechanical piping coming out of its neck. I would strongly assert that this FoI has simply fallen over on top of the building, not emerged from it.

In fact, in the wider pan shots of the multitudes of FoI's which we see among the ruins of Tokyo-3, there is not one single other instance of an FoI crashing out of any building whatsoever.

To really emphasis this point, I've made a greyscale images of the FoI composite images provided by TMBounty_Hunter above. The lack of red glare makes these a little easier to stare at. In any case, here they are

Greyscale composite links  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg width=600]Eva3-33 C0805A comp grey.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg width=600]Eva3-33 C0805B comp grey.jpg[/wkimg]


But to make things a little more forum friendly, I've decided to tile the major FoI city pan, namely C0805B into a sequence of smaller images.

I challenge anyone to find others instances of FoIs emerging from buildings in any of these shots
C0805B tiles 00-03  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 00.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 01.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 02.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 03.jpg[/wkimg]

C0805B tiles 04-07  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 04.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 05.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 06.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 07.jpg[/wkimg]

C0805B tiles 08-11  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 08.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 09.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 10.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 11.jpg[/wkimg]

C0805B tiles 12-15  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 12.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 13.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 14.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33 C0805B tile 15.jpg[/wkimg]

Certainly we see the FoIs swarming among the buildings. And it does appear in some cases that the FoI's are emerging from the ground/LCL fallout, or have become buried in fallout. But no-where can I see FoI's actually crashing out of any buildings. The only instance of that is the very first composite shown above, and I would assert that this FoI has simply fallen over onto the building.

I think this idea of FoI's being transformed humans is leading us down the wrong path. My strong feeling is that the FoIs are either MP Evangelions, belonging to Nerv or others, or that the FoI's have somehow emerged out of the ground, similarly to the massive teeth seen in the post-3I landscape shot.

But in any event, For this post at least, I'd like to strongly refute the suggestion that the FoI's are crashing out of buildings here, and with it the idea that residents have suddenly been converted into them. It doesn't fit what we see here.
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Postby riffraff11235 » Fri May 17, 2013 1:58 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:[wkimg width=800]Eva3-33 C0804 comp grey.jpg[/wkimg]

If you look closely at the left hand of this FoI, it doesn't look like it's crashed through the top of the building. To me it looks as if the hand got stuck while phasing through the building. Also, it seems as if we've concluded that the FoI's are physical copies of Unit-01, but Unit-01's armor doesn't have the same plating on the back of the neck. Has anyone tried to explain this inconsistency?
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Postby Reichu » Fri May 17, 2013 2:35 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:It's time to correct what I feel is a pretty big misconception concerning the FoIs. Specifically, the FoIs are not shown bursting out of buildings.

Who's still holding this misconception? I thought we got past this a while ago, with the conclusion being more along the lines that the FoIs are emerging from the core-ified buildings/ground. And you can see many examples of the Failures doing precisely this.

The FoIs being MP Evas is also quite refuted, I believe, by the fact that the MP Evas are Mark.06 copies, whereas the Failures are Eva-01 copies. Furthermore, the FoIs emerging out of the giant core-matrix doesn't speak against them being transformed people in any particular way.

riffraff: I think Evas in general are supposed to have those plates on their necks, but you usually don't see them, especially the top one, because there's helmet in the way.


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