Failures of Infinity: Don't lose your head!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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[Spoilers] Failures of Infinity: Don't lose your head!

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Postby Reichu » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:58 am

This thread has been split out from the IMPACT MECHANICS so that the Failures of Infinity get their own thread in which to perplex us all by themselves. -- OMF

Coming back to this thread after seeing the latest trailer... I seem to have missed this post earlier:

View Original Postduo_rei wrote:Oh, and I do remember seeing dead red EVA's (specifically their arms) coming out of balconies in apartment buildings in Tokyo 3. The thought of those things having "evolved" from residents living there really creeps me out....


Yeah, after seeing the visuals for myself:

Image

...I immediately came to the conclusion that the red Evas are Tokyo-3 residents that evolved right where they were standing, as well. (Which isn't too far removed from the guess I made with just dialogue and a vague description of the visuals alone.) There are mutilated corpses and everything -- even the dead appear to have been transformed where they stood.

Though, either not everybody got transformed, or Tokyo-3 is a pretty empty city, eh?

The weirdest thing to me is that they're covered in armor plating. Weird pylons and everything. This doesn't particularly make sense. I mean... why would a mystical artificial evolution process automatically deck you out in the stuff that, we've observed, have to be manufactured and affixed by teams of technicians? (Cf.: Mark.06 on the Moon.) It's not as if Anno and company have some kind of built-in aversion to big naked artificial gods, as the short prefacing the movie demonstrates. So... why?

Not to mention, why are they (and everything else, for that matter) all red?

And unveiled to us poor gaijin suckers in the same trailer... What the fuck is this?

Image

As I understand, it's something that's pulled up from below the Tokyo-3 ruins during Fourth Impact, but... yeah. The hell?

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Postby Azathoth » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:32 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:And unveiled to us poor gaijin suckers in the same trailer... What the fuck is this?

Image

As I understand, it's something that's pulled up from below the Tokyo-3 ruins during Fourth Impact, but... yeah. The hell?


lol Anno. the true secret of Buster Machine 3 is unveiled

also do my eyes deceive me or are all those Evas in Tokyo-3 identical to Unit 01? because the thought of Shinji attempting to replace every human being he can with static, literally crystallized images of his mother is pretty godamn disturbing.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:58 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: There are mutilated corpses and everything -- even the dead appear to have been transformed where they stood.


Creepy as hell.

Somehow, the armor plating on the Evas doesn't seem to be entirely artificial. The fact that it glows when an Eva is awakened suggests to me that it's at least partially organic this time around, only that it's grown separately before being affixed to the Evas (That might explain the "Whore of Babylon" colors on awakened Evas, due to the armor itself being part of the greater lifeform). With pseudo-evolution, all the Tokyo-3 residents started to take on Eva form themselves and got their own armor, due to the armor being organic and becoming part of the "mind" of the Evas.

(I know that's a whole lot of gibberish, but I can't think of any better reason as to why Tokyo-3 residents turned into armored Evas)

Image

As I understand, it's something that's pulled up from below the Tokyo-3 ruins during Fourth Impact, but... yeah. The hell?


It looks as though it's the head of a giant screw, or part of a colossal drill.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:00 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:also do my eyes deceive me or are all those Evas in Tokyo-3 identical to Unit 01?

Huh... Now that you mention it, I can see the horns on them...

They're not crystallized, though. If you watch the cut of the revolving top-like thing, you can see a wobbly red Eva float to the right side of the screen.

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Postby Azathoth » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:08 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:(I know that's a whole lot of gibberish, but I can't think of any better reason as to why Tokyo-3 residents turned into armored Evas)


Let's be honest though, Eva armor has always been kind of magic nonsense. Remember how Unit 01 regenerates it in ep02? and I note that that effect got replaced by something more biological in 1.11
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:13 pm

The early episodes of NGE were when they were still thinking things out (I still remember the line about Sachiel being an autonomous weapon system and other such things). When we did see the bindings later, they didn't come off as organic at all.

If they're all Eva-01 copies, it's possible that Eva-01 was going to follow the footsteps of the Old Testament God and recreate all of Tokyo-3's residents in its own image as an act of creation.

It reminds me of one of Rei's lines from old Episode 14 - she'd said something like "man, born from red earth" before saying "born from man and woman is man" or something like that. In the Old Testament, man (Adam) was created from Earth (Adama). It's possible that the Evas were made of Red, 3I- tainted earth.
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Postby Azathoth » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:17 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:If they're all Eva-01 copies, it's possible that Eva-01 was going to follow the footsteps of the Old Testament God and recreate all of Tokyo-3's residents in its own image as an act of creation.


Wait, do we have evidence that Unit 01 herself bears any responsibility for Near Third Impact and related events?
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:19 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Huh... Now that you mention it, I can see the horns on them...

Yeah, I also noticed it while I was re-watching the trailer. They remind me a lot of the giant Rei that Eva-01 formed at the end of Ha...
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Postby Reichu » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:36 pm

Ursus: "Giant bolt" + "(spinning like) a drill" do seem to encapsulate the thing, don't they... So damned bizarre! I want to see the Fourth Impact sequence so bad~!

NME has been a bit on the doofy side where the Evas' armor is concerned. I mean, with the Adams, you can clearly see that there aren't pylons and stuff. Mark.06, it's obviously a big naked body that they have to put shit onto. There's nothing remotely organic about the Evas' coverings, but it still does wonky stuff like get absorbed (?!?) when Eva-02 goes Angler Dog in 2.0 (the plates on her back just... sink into nowhere and vanish :um: ) and regenerate like flesh in 1.0. I'm not really sure what to make of it, though it seems to smell quite heavily of Tsurumaki influence. In FLCL, he showcased his fascination for an essentially illogical meshing of robotic and organic (cf. Canti, who by all appearances is fully mechanical, sprouting bestial jaws and later shitting out Naota in a spiral-shaped turd).

So, uh..... Maybe we can do something with Azathoth's suggestion... something about people being recreated in Shinji's image of Eva-01...

Azathoth: Well, who else would have made all of that weird-ass shit at the end of 2.0 happen? Shinji? 3.0 seems to confirm that he was just a catalyst for everything that followed, leaving Eva as the actual weaver of blood-red wishes... just like Ritsuko said from the start, eh?


Also, random observation: Kensuke didn't get to pilot an Eva. He became one instead. :hahaha: But all dead and all red. WHY???


Guess it might not be a bad idea to split this stuff out so that the Impact Mechanics thread gets a little lovin', eh?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:05 pm

I did some limited floundering about in Google for Japanese fans' ideas about the red Evas. I thought this bit from here was interesting:

(...)、もしかしたらあの赤いエヴァがすべて融合して一つになることによって人類(リリン)は「インフィニティ」という種に進化していたのかもしれない

(...), perhaps the red Evas are humans (Lilin) that evolved into the "Infinity" species by fusing together.

The "fusing together" idea addresses the problem of "why aren't there as many red Evas as you'd expect there to be citizens?". This also forwards the notion of "Infinity" -- Kaworu references the giant corpse-thingies in CD as "failures of infinity", literally -- as an actual label for giant god-people, rather than throwaway flowery language. Interesting. If I manage to make out anything else interesting, I'll post it.

Rawinder: Ornette did propose that in his post.

View Original Postqu4d wrote:Reminds me of NGE!Adam, that we saw in the flashback where he had pilons as well :f

We're told by Ritsuko that the Evas' armor is really restraints, and clearly see in EoE that Eva-01 manifests greater power by casting off her pylons. So, actually, Adam being given pylons by the Katsuragi Expedition is internally consistent.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:53 pm

I was thinking, going along with the western notion of god that 'creates others in his/her own image' that the Eva-01 (Yui) that is achieving god-hood is creating new life in its own image, literally.

I dislike jumping to the conclusion that this is people being turned into Eva-like beings, partly in that the numbers aren't enough, and because something of that drastically ethereal a nature I would kind of expect to affect those in the 'eye of the storm'. But whatever.
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Postby Darkwing » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:15 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:I was thinking, going along with the western notion of god that 'creates others in his/her own image' that the Eva-01 (Yui) that is achieving god-hood is creating new life in its own image, literally.

I dislike jumping to the conclusion that this is people being turned into Eva-like beings, partly in that the numbers aren't enough, and because something of that drastically ethereal a nature I would kind of expect to affect those in the 'eye of the storm'. But whatever.


Maybe people were turned into those in the same way clay is turned into a sculpture. They provided the raw materials.

I don't think turning everyone into eva's was even remotely what Shinji wanted. If it was what he wanted to see in 3rd Impact it would have been Reis.

Aww, Shit, Gendo's plan is to turn eveyone into Yuis.
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Postby Rawinder » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:14 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The "fusing together" idea addresses the problem of "why aren't there as many red Evas as you'd expect there to be citizens?". This also forwards the notion of "Infinity" -- Kaworu references the giant corpse-thingies in CD as "failures of infinity", literally -- as an actual label for giant god-people, rather than throwaway flowery language. Interesting. If I manage to make out anything else interesting, I'll post it.


What if these "infinity beings" created from fusing people together in an Impact are what the Adams are? White giants are what they're supposed to be, the dead red Evas are what they turn out to be if the process is aborted?

The population difference between Antarctica and Tokyo-3 could explain why Second Impact only created four Adams while Third Impact was on track to make several more than that.

Rawinder: Ornette did propose that in his post.


Ha, my mistake, completely skipped over that.

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Postby Darkwing » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:19 pm

Replaying Xenoblade has given me another idea to explain the numbers discrephency. Not everyone started to transform, just those with the right genetic factors or whatever.
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Postby CJD » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:09 pm

After seeing it myself I have to agree with the proposed theory, that 3I was in the process of converting people to beings that looked like Evas somehow and for some reason. It seems by aborting 3I Kaworu either aborted the process entirely or froze it in place, presumably it being possible to continue it later.

And yea, that fusion idea came to mind as soon as I saw it. If we go back to the whole "Fruit of Life" and "Fruit of Knowledge" the idea was that beings with the Fruit of Life are less numerous but more powerful. One human isn't the same as one angel, so I think it makes sense that one human wouldn't be the same as an "Infinity" or whatever they're called.

One thing to note is that it gives a very new angle to "Impacts" in Rebuild if these lifeforms are the result of an Impact. I don't know about anyone else, but I've sort of always taken it for granted that the end result of a successful impact in Rebuild was similar to EoE. But if we're talking about creating an entire race of life forms it throws out all of those assumptions, and even brings up the question of whether instrumentality or a GNR-like being will even be relevant to Rebuild.

@qu4d: What am I looking at here?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:56 pm

Having just seen the new trailer myself, it does look as though these new Eva-01 bodies popped out of buildings (lending credence to the idea that these are transformed humans. I noticed that they're all not the same size - some look a whole lot smaller than others. Transformed kids? People who transformed later than others and couldn't reach full Eva size before Kaworu aborted the process?

If this transformation happened as in the case of EoE, where some people turned to tang much sooner than others, Kaworu probably stopped the process before all inhabitants of Tokyo-3 were done with transforming into new bodies, and all the smaller bodies and unformed bodies are probably still lying in the streets or in the buildings. (I can imagine how horrific that would look...ugh)
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Postby Ramiel² » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:34 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:It did seem to result in a lot of giant red stillborns, if nothing else.

(And... Guf. GUF!!!)


Werent those Red pseudo Evas result of the 3rd impact? That what kaworu showed to Shinji?

Anyway this was just posted on /a/


Kaworu: The clouds will disperse soon, and you will see the truth you desire.
Shinji: What is this...?
Kaworu: The outcome of Third Impact, which came to pass while you were merged with Eva-01.
Shinji: This is... What happened to everyone in the city?
Kaworu: Mass extinction is not unusual on this planet.
Kaworu: Rather, it is the aspect that drives evolution.
Kaworu: Because life is fundamentally something that adjusts to the world and changes itself.
Kaworu: However, Lilin do not change themselves, but the world.
Kaworu: So they brought the rite of artificial evolution unto themselves.
Kaworu: Old life is offered in sacrifice, to facilitate the birth of new beings blessed by the Fruit of Life.
Kaworu: This fateful cycle of destruction and rebirth is the product of archaic programming.
Kaworu: Nerv call it the Human Instrumentality Project.
Shinji: This is Nerv's-- what my father was doing.


The Fruit of life line intrigues me the most.
Does this mean all thos petrified Evas were basically Angel-Type beeings?
That kinda contradicts the purpose of the Human made Impact and the idea that Eva-01 created them in his own image as eva-01 is Lilith based..

My head hurts...

EDIT: Just checked if this Translation is allready present in the Translation thread and it is.

So yeah, im sorry for double Posting but the Point still stands, This whole fruit of life beeings out of 3rd impact which was caused by Eva-01 merging with Angelic-Rei just makes me scratch my head..

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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:07 pm

View Original PostRamiel² wrote:Anyway this was just posted on /a/

You can always see the current status of the translation right here.

That kinda contradicts the purpose of the Human made Impact and the idea that Eva-01 created them in his own image as eva-01 is Lilith based..

An assumption taken from the original show. Eva-01's "pseudo-evolved" form unambiguously resembles one of the Adams.

Anyway, look through the rest of the thread if you haven't. There's some good discussion on the red Evas.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:01 am

The Eva-fication of several of the populace seems to have occurred randomly, seeing as Misato, Ritsuko and the bridge bunnies are alive, as well as Gendo and Fuyutsuki. Is it because the process never got completed, or was there some mysterious factor that determined who got turned into an Eva or not?
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[SPOILERS] Second Impact, Third Impact, Adams and Kaworu

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:55 pm

This just came to my head after seeing the effects of 3I - all the red Eva-01 bodies made of core material just lying around there. We know from Misato's statement that 2I and 3I both started out with something spouting wings. Ritsuko says that 3I is following up on 2I.

It's possible that the Adams and "Adams survivor" seen at 2I were a result of the original Adam/Kaworu starting off Second Impact, which was aborted only after Antarctica as a continent was demolished and the entire Katsuragi team was wiped out. The original handful of Adams created during 2I landed up being frozen and washed up on various seashores, resulting in survivors like the Mark.09.

Kaworu is called the First Angel, and he's also the Thirteenth (In the series, he was the Seventeeth and effectively the First due to carrying Adam's soul). It's possible that Kaworu was created during 2I from Adam, which is why he and Adam both share First Angel status, before he's reduced to the 13th.
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