What would you change about Evangelion?

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Postby WunderBah » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:04 pm

Just two things:

-Kaworu's relationship with Shinji was too sudden even with Shinji's options in meaningful interaction running out at the time.

-Toji should have died right there in episode 19, felt like a cop-out. Manga NGE handled the outcome MUCH better imo.

Otherwise NGE is brilliant as is.
Last edited by WunderBah on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:05 pm

Agree on Toji. He disappears anyway.

Disagree on Kaworu. Whatever Anno's intent, the falseness of their relationship in-show is important to Shinji's arc.

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:08 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Agree on Toji. He disappears anyway.

Disagree on Kaworu. Whatever Anno's intent, the falseness of their relationship in-show is important to Shinji's arc.


Toji should have died, but not at ep 8 for chrissakes. He should have died after ep 18.
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Postby WunderBah » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:13 pm

I meant after episode 18, fuck me. :facepalm:

And i'm not saying that the false-relationship dynamic was bad or anything, just that i would have liked to see MORE of it had Kaworu's screen time not been limited. Makes his dynamic with Shinji feel...incomplete to me.

Otherwise Kaworu's fascination with the Lilin and his death were well done.

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Postby Meerkat » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:48 am

I think Toji should have died too since he disappears from the story after that anyway. Shinjis subsequent rebellious actions make more sense if Toji dies. (Either that or not disappear from the story, I liked Toji, though I can see how there'd be little room for him in the story after that)
I also think the manga handled it better in that Shinji knows that he's fighting Toji; his reluctance to fight Eva 03 makes more sense if it's about not wanting to hurt one of his few friends than if it's about not wanting to hurt another human being.

(Rebuild doesn't handle that fight well at all since Shinji can't see what's happening; why lessen the horror of a plot-point meant to traumatize the main character? A strange move.)

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Postby Aether » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:29 pm

Hmmm...
Komm Susser Tod doesn't play the 2nd time around in EoE, elevator scene shorter, Kaworu death scene shorter(still a still shot for a while though, maybe only 40 secs), THE DUB, switch the names of Adam and Lilith, fix a few of the angels' names(e.g. Zeruel -> Tzuriel, what it actually is in Hebrew), switch associations(Kaworu - Adam, Rei - CHAVAH, Asuka - LILITH), give title of 19th(Gematria of Chavah) artificial angel to Unit 1, at the end of EoE, the Rei apparition appears as Asuka delivers the final line, rather than before, and last but not least: Black Guy Hyuga voices everyone!
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:45 pm

View Original PostMeerkat wrote:I think Toji should have died too since he disappears from the story after that anyway. Shinjis subsequent rebellious actions make more sense if Toji dies. (Either that or not disappear from the story, I liked Toji, though I can see how there'd be little room for him in the story after that)
I also think the manga handled it better in that Shinji knows that he's fighting Toji; his reluctance to fight Eva 03 makes more sense if it's about not wanting to hurt one of his few friends than if it's about not wanting to hurt another human being.


Can't agree, really; having Touji live made the weird sequence with Shinji, Rei, and Touji possible, which sheds some light on Rei's nature. As to Shinji's subsequent actions, he's upset at being used and denied agency, which persists regardless of whether or not the pilot of Unit 03 lives. And as to the last, the fact he doesn't care who it is, and is only concerned with the fact that he's fighting another human, is a strong point in Shinji's favor IMO. If he only cares because it's a friend his moral stance is considerably weakened. When it doesn't matter who it is he's at least on solid ground in principle, even if he's missed the point in practice.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Postby IronEvangelion » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:56 am

Make Toji, Kensuke, and Hikari eva pilots. Toji's Unit 03 would have a successful activation test instead of getting infected. Eva 04's engine test wouldn't fail, so Kensuke would get it. Hikari would get MP Unit 05 (but without wings or the fake LoL).

Add a new scene to EoE where Ritsuko doesn't die right away from Gendo's gunshot and is later torn limb from limb by vengeful Rei-tachi.

Add Mari to NGE as a rogue eva pilot working for Kaji. He'd have her pop in randomly throughout the show and try to screw up Gendo and Seele's plans whenever there was an opening. Her eva would still be Unit 08, but it would be a bright pink MP eva with all the fixin's.

Make the show itself about 10 episodes longer and add more angels to compensate for all the new pilots.

Get rid of Death and Rebirth, and change that one clip show episode into a Bridge Crew episode.
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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:37 am

EoE's instrumentality should have been averted by MC Touji and DJ Kensuke arriving out of nowhere, Wayne and Garth style, who then proceed to bust a rhyme that inspires the entire cast to believe in themselves. 3rd Impact is stopped, everything is returned to normal, the cast is not only revived but also cured of their emotional distress, and everything ends happily.

Or alternatively they could go full Wayne's World and stop it with a "Diddlydoo! Diddlydoo! Diddlydoo!" followed by "the mega-happy ending".
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Postby mechashiva » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:18 pm

View Original PostWunderBah wrote:Just two things:

-Kaworu's relationship with Shinji was too sudden even with Shinji's options in meaningful interaction running out at the time.



I agree with this, partially.

If all the Angels up to Kaworu were evolving or changing to better get into Nerv to merge with Lilith, it makes sense for the last Angel to be the most human-like and maybe also Biblically (i.e. making man in the image of God but in reverse), at least that's the way I see it.

I think that would be *fixed* if Kaworu was one of Shinji's classmates who gotten chosen to pilot EVA-03 (poor Toji, lol) and gets infected with the Angel to such a degree that he becomes more Angel than human or half-Angel, half-human. It could be seeded earlier than Shinji and Kaworu are sort crushing on each other but in denial about it and once Kaworu changes, he becomes more open with his feelings for Shinji and then he has to make the decision to kill Kaworu. like maybe the Angel mind-rape has infected him and he's becoming more inhuman.

The drama of Shinji having to destroy the only person who loves him is still there, but he's not introduced and killed in the same episode.



I wonder if Kaworu was meant to be introduced earlier but got pushed into the later episodes because of the production...
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Postby strawhatpatriot » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:52 pm

They should have developed Hikari, especially after Shinji nearly killed Toji in battle
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Postby Jäeger » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:31 am

View Original Postmechashiva wrote:The drama of Shinji having to destroy the only person who openly loves him is still there, but he's not introduced and killed in the same episode.



Fixed

And I always thought Kaworu was just a cheater : his seduction only works under estrict circumstances. So its fine it's only in the last chapter. he has always reminded me Berserk's Griffith, without evil. Well, being a Jesuschrist expy, thats what you can expect from the messiah.

Watch again the episode and hear Shinji's lines before their encounter, including him facing EVA 02....which, IMO, had a callback in EoE's beginning. It's easy to understand why his relationship with Kaworu only can take place in that episode. Well, and after everything goes to hell, he doesn´t seem to care about Kaworu in EoE, except being happy to see him alive again, that's all. So, not dissonance for me here : Kaworu's place it's last episode. An abnormal circumstance that only works under abnormal circumstances.

They should have developed Hikari, especially after Shinji nearly killed Toji in battle


I agree, a lot
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Postby Lavinius » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:46 am

I feel Kaworu's story is perfect as is. There is no need to alter a single second.

And now I'm finding Magma Diver far less grating than I used to. Just remove the heat-resistant plugsuit nonsense, or at least make it look like something that would actually keep out heat. It could still look awful.

As always I'd love to hear more of Kiel and Seele. I find myself wishing that episode 25 could have included the Case of Kiel Lorenz. Though, it was also lacking of Gendou's and Ritsuko's Cases, but they seem to have gotten good enough endings in End, Fuyutsuki as well. But Kiel is completely absent in the one version and hardly any less indecipherable in the other. I mean, Seele were set up quite a bit as if they were going after immortality for themselves, and they even seem to make mention of that when they confront Gendou, but nothing seems to come of that. They just go for a plan which, to my current interpretation, is "sacrifice the world, resurrect Zagreus".

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:56 am

View Original Poststrawhatpatriot wrote:They should have developed Hikari, especially after Shinji nearly killed Toji in battle


I agree with this as well, kind of a missed opportunity there, but the tough question then becomes which scene/scenes from ep. 19 onwards should have been jettisoned to make room for such development?

I guess the most we ever get is that great scene with her and Asuka in 22, which can be interpreted a couple different ways, but I don't think she ever brought up Toji there because that scene's throughline is Asuka's breakdown, not whatever Hikari's going through at that moment.
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Postby LukeMM95 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:08 am

I'd probably have Toji killed in Episode 18. I mean it's not like Toji did anything after that episode anyway, so having him be violently killed right in front of Shinji would have had a bigger impact on the character. This is one area I actually think they handled better in the manga. The build-up to him piloting was also better in Sadamoto's version, with Toji coming to Shinji for advice and breaking down in front of him.

I also would have loved to see how NGE turned out without the budget constraints. But then again, that may have resulted in us not getting EoE.

Speaking of EoE, I actually feel that it should have been a little longer. I say this because I think they should have tried to tie in the movie's third impact into the TV show's. Maybe follow through on the idea of all these different realities, like they did in Episode 26 of the show. I know they tried to do this with the deleted live action sequence but the final product barely touches on this aspect. Even a recreation of some of the Episode 26 scenes would have been nice. After watching the movie a few times now, I just feel like Third Impact ends too abruptly. Shinji's decision to live again, should have been more gradual.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:58 pm

There were no budget constraints.

Also, having Touji live gave us the scene with Rei in ep 19, which was important for a variety of subtle background reasons. If he died we would lose that, and the story would suffer as a result.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby vito » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:03 pm

People too often mistake scheduling problems with budget constraints. No matter how many animators (=money) you throw at a project (hi Attack on Titan), it won't help you make miracles, if your schedule is shit, just the deadline... barely.

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Postby mechashiva » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:21 pm

I think the only I would change is just that if there was more of the original series. I'm glad there are spinoffs that exist with the express purpose of imagining Shinji having a more well-adjusted life and having a chance at happiness BUT I wished there just more episodes with happy endings like the Jet Alone episode and ep. 9 where Asuka and Shinji have to put aside their differences temporarily and work together, even if right afterwards they go back to bickering :lol:

Even though episodes like Jet Alone were kind of filler, I wished there were more with the characters interacting. In a way, I applaud NGE for being brief instead of dragging the episodes out indefenitely and undercutting the conflict but the episodes that could be considered 'filler' were my favorites and I wished there was more of those or more action-y/exciting episodes.
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Postby LukeMM95 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:42 am

View Original Postvito wrote:People too often mistake scheduling problems with budget constraints. No matter how many animators (=money) you throw at a project (hi Attack on Titan), it won't help you make miracles, if your schedule is shit, just the deadline... barely.

I was under the impression that NGE was on a very tight budget, which is why many of the scenes of people talking either cover the characters' mouths or don't show the characters at all (talking off screen, black silhouettes, etc). And of course, there are the over long pauses where nothing happens like the train station scene, Asuka and Rei in the elevator and Shinji contemplating on whether to kill Kaworu.

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Postby vito » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:29 am

Looking up some interviews, you're right it was also a budget problem. My bad.


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