Do you Dislike Q?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Jurrasic » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:34 am

I apologize in advance for going off topic here, but I just saw...
If anyone needs me, I'll be in my ready room re-watching the first eighteen episodes of Yamato 2199.


Just wanted to say that -THIS- is how to do a re-imaging of a classic anime series, and do it in the most awesome and kickass manner possible.

If you were ever a fan of Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato you MUST buy, beg or torrent Yamato 2199. I won't go into why, that's a subject for a different forum, but DO IT.

Thank you, and now back to your regularly scheduled Eva angst. :wink:
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:49 am

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:The removal of Eva-01 is an enormous shift. But I felt if gave Evaangelion the chance to explore Shinji as a character in and of himself, and not just as the pilot of Eva-01. What I most appreciated about 3.0 was the dedicated focus on Shinji, and the first really on-screen blow by blow breakdown of his breakdown. The thing was, Eva-01 and even Misato had to go in order for this to be pulled off convincingly.

Well, so far Shinji not as the pilot of Unit-01 seems to be reduced to complete uselessness : in all of 3.0 the ones who acted were Asuka, Mari, Misato and Cie and finally Kaworu when he weakened EVA-13, while Shinji was unconscious(Operation US) or reduced to a powerless spectator(Wunder vs Nemesis Series, trying to stop 4I).
And the only two times when he actively did something were when he escaped the Wunder with ReiQ(which was the starting point of all this madness) and when he pulled out the spears(which led to a massive screw-up!)
So far I don't see what point Anno want to make : "you'd better give up wanting to help the fight and should change your life if you can't pilot EVA, 'cause the only thing you can do then is fuck-up and make your friends' life even more difficult"? WILLE certainly seems to think so...
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Stillborn » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:59 am

^

Speaking of messages and making a point.

Copying from different thread

View Original PostStillborn wrote:That little bit reminds me... 2.0 was You can (not) advance. You can not move foreward. 3.0 was You can (not) redo, you can not go backwards.

Does that carry subtle message of "you're stuck"? Whatever that may mean? Just a tiny bit of fanwank. Or I missed something.
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Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:56 pm

^


I took more the message of 2.0 title as "you cannot advance in your relationship with your father"(which was the main objective of Shinji, and latter Rei during the whole movie, and Shinji's last words with Rei was about that too).
Another possible interpretation is on a meta-level : the phrase without the word in brackets is Shinji's situation at the beginning of the film("You are alone" and "You can advance") and the phrase with the words on brackets is his situation at the end("You are not alone" and "You can not advance"), maybe at the beginning of 2.0 it was "Shinji can advance through the plot", and at the end of the film "Shinji can not advance through the plot" : his involvement came to a stop while the rest of the events were happening around him, foreshadowing the fact he will stay "frozen" during 14 years("cannot advance") while the rest of the cast continued to fight the Angels and discover the truth behind Gendo, SEELE, the HIP... they "advanced".


Now coming back to EVA-01 being absent from the movie, after thinking about it actually removing it for 3.0 was the logical thing to do : by the end of 2.0 the thing became too powerful to not transform any further fight in an utter curb-stomp battle, be it against Angels, Evangelions or Nemesis Series. And unlike in NGE where the trump card was EVA-01 going berserk, something did by Yui and thus not controllable by Shinji, here in NTE it's made pretty clear that Shinji is the one who pseudo-evolved and controlled EVA-01 while it was tearing Zeruel a new one. Had Shinji be allowed to keep EVA-01 and live through the 14 years time skip, he would really had become the "Invincible Shinji-sama" Asuka was talking about in NGE, an invincible fighter able to destroy any enemy on sight.

But making EVA-01 into an unstable abomination trying to turn to core everything around it and bring the apocalypse, thus cutting Shinji from the access to it(maybe even making it physically impossible iif that 0.00% synch-rate is to be believed), Anno made it so some power balance between the factions is kept.
Also that's a good way to explore Shinji's character without the EVA, really without the EVA(even if so far the results aren't really shining...)
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby airman4 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:34 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Agreed. Most of the complaints stems from people wanting the series to prematurely end by having it blow its exposition wad too early.


Yeah
I loved the movie to the infinite

A memorable movie to me

And oddly , when you watch it many times , you enjoy this more and more

Anno took a lot of risk and rewarded it

I hope he will continue and not just copy NGE and put it in HD

ElMariachi
Shinji bneat Asuka when kaworu was thinking about the lances
Also it's already awesome from someone out for 14 years

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Postby Gus Hanson » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:45 pm

When I first saw it, I was blown away by the changes in the timeline and the new positions of characters we've come to know and love or hate. While I must say the removal of Unit 01 soured the experience a bit for me, I would not necessarily say it completely took away from the overall joy I felt watching the Eva units in combat. Kaworu had indeed evolved throughout the course of a trilogy from a one note character into a fully developed being with intriguing qualities like making the world better for Shinji even if it all came to nothing with his premature fate.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:47 pm

View Original Postairman4 wrote:ElMariachi
Shinji bneat Asuka when kaworu was thinking about the lances
Also it's already awesome from someone out for 14 years

It wasn't really a fight : Shinji was completely on the defensive behind the RS Hopper AT Fields while Asuka charged him, until she ended without battery.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:16 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:It wasn't really a fight : Shinji was completely on the defensive behind the RS Hopper AT Fields while Asuka charged him, until she ended without battery.

All four RS Hoppers were destroyed when she took out the daggers however.
Please just call me Ian, "TheFrisky" is more of a title.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:14 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:It wasn't really a fight : Shinji was completely on the defensive behind the RS Hopper AT Fields while Asuka charged him, until she ended without battery.

Actually, it looks like he launched an attack with them after calling her "clueless".

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Postby airman4 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:23 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Actually, it looks like he launched an attack with them after calling her "clueless".


and he attacked her with the left hand of the EVA 13 , eva 02 just was thrown away like a rice bag.
After that Mari attacked

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Postby Haydenn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:52 pm

I personally got the impression Shinji was in control of all four RS Hoppers himself, he seemed to be exerting himself throughout and even asked why kaworu wasn't helping him. I mean he's really exerting himself allot (relatively speaking) considering his EVA is just standing there or slowly stepping back and its not like its fending off blows itself. He's definitely controlling them when on the offensive i think based upon his reactions its fair to assume he's doing the same to defend himself.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:14 am

Indeed its pretty clear that Shinji has some sort of control over the RS Hopper, when he used them to push her back for example, maybe they also reacted to his survival instincts when they deployed to stop Asuka's first strike from the air, or when the last two were sacrificed when EVA-13 tripped on a pile of skulls.
But even then his "counter-attacks" were pretty half-hearted compared to the fury of Asuka's attacks.

By the way I'm the only one who picked up on the dark irony of Shinji calling Asuka "clueless"? Another proof on how much failures on communicating poisoned every characters in this film and led to catastrophes?(and ultimately to the benefit of Gendo?)
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Haydenn » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:02 am

The one thing i really didn't like too much about 3.0 is shinjis development. I was really really fond of Shinji in rebuild, he was exactly how i wanted him to be in the series, more of a backbone and a bit more kick ass. I mean he'll he starts instrumentality from nothing other than his will, no catalyst or staffs or angels just 'I want this, im going to get it no matter what' and the EVA awakens just to do what he's demanding. Ace. Then in 3.0 he goes back to old old Shinji, not through most of it admittedly but the end scene where he's being told be everyone not to touch the spears and just goes into dumb ass mode and whines and does it anyway then bitches when everything goes wrong after. Really annoyed me. Other than that i enjoyed it allot.
Last edited by Haydenn on Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby airman4 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:08 pm

View Original PostHaydenn wrote:The one thing i really didn't like too much about 3.0 is shinjis development. I was really really fod of Shinji in rebuild, he was exactly how i wanted him to be in the series, more of a backbone and a bit more kick ass. I mean he'll he starts instrumentality from nothing other than his will, no catalyst or staffs or angels just 'I want this, im going to get it no matter what' and the EVA awakens just to do what he's demanding. Ace. Then in 3.0 he goes back to old old Shinji, not through most of it admittedly but the end scene where he's being told be everyone not to touch the spears and just goes into dumb ass mode and whines and does it anyway then bitches when everything goes wrong after. Really annoyed me. Other than that i enjoyed it allot.


Kaworu told him that cassius and longinus will fix his sins
When they arrived to retrieves lances , well there was a problem

But kaworu was thinking without giving any explanation , so Shinji thought that maybe it would have worked out
He wanted so much to erase what he did before .
I mean he killed Tons of people , destroyed the earth , so he grab the the two lances without hesitation

I dont see any old Shinji, i see a tragedy , fixing one by another one tragedy. one after one.

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Postby Haydenn » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:28 pm

Kaworu told him that cassius and longinus will fix his sins
When they arrived to retrieves lances , well there was a problem

But kaworu was thinking without giving any explanation , so Shinji thought that maybe it would have worked out
He wanted so much to erase what he did before .
I mean he killed Tons of people , destroyed the earth , so he grab the the two lances without hesitation

I dont see any old Shinji, i see a tragedy , fixing one by another one tragedy. one after one.


Kaworu thinks to figure out whats going on but then tells Shinji allot not to get the spears before Shinji actually grabs them. When he's knocked away EVA 02 and before he's even started climbing lilith kaworu says "stop shiinji, i have a bad feeling about this" Then that 'they have done enough and its not the spears they came for.' Shinji then locks him out giving him sole control of unit13. Then when Shinji grabs them he shouts "Shinji don't do this" followed by Asuka saying stop u stupid brat and he just does it anyway. I mean don't get me wrong i completely understand why he does he's absolutely desperate and guilt ridden and i agree its a tragedy, i simply personally prefered the stronger Shinji than the bakkashinji.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:58 pm

TOPIC

Take discussion about specific characters into their respective threads.

Gendou WILL KILL YOU!
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Postby Gendou WILL KILL YOU! » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:30 pm

Hi there.
Before I add my two cents I'll clarify I've been here a looong time. I may not have many posts under my name, but that's because I've been a lurker most of the time. I knew EVA in 2001, and started reading most of the regulars here since we all were excited especulating on the EVA LA movie at the trivialbeing forums.

And yes, I disliked Q.

Here's the thing (and mind you, it may be a tad long): I never forgot the whole plan of rebuild was doing a new version of the story to a point, and then make a completely different ending. I knew from the start we wouldn't get EoE again (which I love), and knew the whole focus and themes would necessarily change. Anno has, like me, grown. The guy went from having deep depresion and no motivation to a creative explosion and chaos (while making EVA) to an ego boost to a need for change (leaving Kare Kano, making his live action movies that went from indie to toku) to probably dealing with the fact that EVA was his non plus ultra, his signature work, both loving and hating and accepting it eventually. He went from being a lonely otaku who craved new issues of I''s and basically creating the Gainax bounce (Gunbuster) to being a married man. So yeah, he changed. And thus EVA had also changed in its preocupations and themes.

So when 1.0 came I understood what he was highlighting: this time the focus was on action in a way, without losing the character interactions (and that's fine, I find that when you grow up many things are already too serious so some levity in your entertainment is required). And the more you dived into it, as always with EVA, it delivered more complex details: blood on the moon, red sea (sequel/not sequel), third angel missing, exploding angels, moon kaworu...
In 2.0 big changes happened: there was a third angel afterall (troll), Mari Fanservicegami does shit because, ADAMS (which are Ultras LOL), Bardiel fucks up Asuka (who is a completely different character really) instead of Touji, moon Kaworu has moon eva which is an Adam, different lance, Zeruel's battle leads not only to Shinji being stuck in Shogoki but has Armisael's role of destroying Rei II AND leads to a mutherfucking IMPACT. All the extra details are there too: the Adams/Ultras thing, the dummy plug/collosus-forbin connection, etc. But what made it all work was not the technobabble (ZA BEASTO), but the fact that despite having less than 2 hours to develop, the characters shined (OK, Asuka got shafted and Mari has no soul). Gendou showed a heart, Rei got poka poka and Shinji fucked everything to get HIS MOTHERFUCKING Rei BACK. It was fucking epic to watch and feel and... my mind was blown.

So what was Anno's next step? The story was changed completely as promised, and left on the highest note. What was the Nebuchadnezzar key, given Adam was no longer singular? What's the deal with the halo impact? Is Shogoki an Adam now, explaining why it didn't move unmanned to protect Shinji from the debris in 1.0? And what are the Adams? What/who is Mari? And most importantly, interactions: what will happen to Rei/Shinji? What of Asuka? What about Kaji, and Misato for that? So many interesting changes and unresolved questions.

And then Anno goes full autist and makes EVA a scifi with ships and SPAAACE. You see, it's not that I cannot accept the plot device of the time skip, the problem is IT KILLS EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN BUILD UNTIL NOW. A pillar of everything in the story is Misato's love for Shinji ...killed. You know, I always found Gendou to be a complex and relatable character, depite the usual opinions ...no wait, he's in FULL VILLIAN MODE now, and EVERYTHING IS AS PLANNED REGARDLESS. Wait, making Asuka 28 years old not only breaks her relashionship with Shinji, but makes her a completely different person ...DON'T WORRY SHE IS STILL A LOLI COOL HUH?? (no, it's actually worse and stupid). Where are Kaji, Touji et all? ...PROLLY DEAD BECAUSE TRAGEDY!! OK, so all relashionships are broken, you better make up somehow... any insight on Nebuchadnezzar, Adams, and hey, what about mark 6 the halo eva from space? ...WE GOT ADAM VESSELS NAO, MARK 6 IS BROKEN (AND LATER DEAD) AND NOW IMPACTS COME WITH 200% MORE LANCES/ARMS! What the hell happened after 2.0 then?? ...WELL, AN ACTUAL IMPACT THAT CAN ONLY MAKE SENSE AFTER ONE ANGEL WE DID NOT SEE AND ONE WHO POSSESED MARK 6 AND LILITH GOING LOSE AND FAILURES OF INFINITY AND EVERYTHING IS A CORE BUT NEVERMIND THAT, LOOK, SPAAACEEE! And don't get me started on how is all supposed to be Shinji's fault after his impact was stopped, someone made some serious shit happen and he ends up in space not at all like in EoE.

Look, I'm OK with change, but only if it makes sense. One thing I kept thinking (besides "MY HEART IS BROKEN") while watching it was "WHY ANNO, WHY DID YOU BROKE EVERYTHING SO MUCH??". I can only fathon he got bored, so he trew everything in the can and hamfisted EVA to what he wanted to do: a technobabble scifi show in the future. So we get "my YAMATO is bigger than yours" WUNDER and stoic captain Misato, retardo-beasto-pathernigoki, Shogoki is a battery, mark9isnot00 and mark13isnot01double, Gendou is now Keel and everyone is pissed at Shinji because I don't want to explain shit.

(And yes, I know about the Wunder/Nadia thing, but it's still there as Anno's middle age compensation Yamato)

So he broke relationships and made a ridiculously flawed plot (why no one explains Shinji stuff/why is he so retarded to take the lances) ...and yes, it's a bad script, if it wasn't there wouldn't be discussions convincing people we get no explanations to get in the mindframe of Shinji and he took the one obviously bad decision because he wanted to fix things so bad. If those were the actual reasons and it was written properly we would GET it, not shout at the screen in frustration. And why did we get this? To change things? The way I see it an interesting change would be Kaworu not dying, given the actual reasons on the sacrifice weren't really there. It was all too deus ex machina. No, we actually got the same superficially: we get our Rei III, only no one likes her because poka Rei is not in her. It's just a Rei in black latex. We'll get Asuka/MP evas, only it's retarded "8+2 because nigoki is destroyed every 20 minutes in rebuild".

And the whole failures of infinity/lances/adams/vessels/impacts thing? I used to love trying to understand minutia like that. Now that the actual important things are broken I don't really care. Sure, it's interesting to try and make sense of it, and I will keep reading. But for all I care final will have 5 impacts involving 5 lances and a chihuahua. Eva will still be broken.

Finally, I know many others must feel like me. But (and sorry if the comparison is too harsh) they're forcing themselves to like it, because it's EVA and Anno, just like hardcore Star Wars fans defend the prequels. I'm too old for that, I know I didn't like it and I know why. I'll watch final, but I'm not excited for it. So there. Sorry for the ultra long post.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:58 pm

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:The story was changed completely as promised, and left on the highest note.

It is speculated that the scenes from 3.0 preview are shown as flashback(s) (montage) in 4.0.

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:What was the Nebuchadnezzar key, given Adam was no longer singular?
We find out about Nebu key in 4.0. Gendo still has it.

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:What/who is Mari?
Mari is there for fanservice, and nothing more. Accept that.

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:And then Anno goes full autist and makes EVA a scifi with ships and SPAAACE. You see, it's not that I cannot accept the plot device of the time skip, the problem is IT KILLS EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN BUILD UNTIL NOW.
That was the whole point. Anno wants to destroy typical story building ups. It's somewhat more "realistic" to have non-build up story. Like in real life things might not go as planned, and the "build up is ruined." (I don't know proper word for this....)

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:A pillar of everything in the story is Misato's love for Shinji ...killed.
Yeah? So? The whole point of this film is to show what Shinji has lost.

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:You know, I always found Gendou to be a complex and relatable character, depite the usual opinions ...no wait, he's in FULL VILLIAN MODE now, and EVERYTHING IS AS PLANNED REGARDLESS.
We don't know if he's full villian. Hell, he might be a good guy, but he's hiding it. After 3.33 anything is possible. He's a uber mastermind who plans everything ahead. (Or he has Dead sea scrolls which can now apparently predict many things)

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:Wait, making Asuka 28 years old not only breaks her relashionship with Shinji, but makes her a completely different person ...DON'T WORRY SHE IS STILL A LOLI COOL HUH?? (no, it's actually worse and stupid).
Yeah? People change during 14 years you know.

Asuka was never loli......

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote: Where are Kaji, Touji et all? ...PROLLY DEAD BECAUSE TRAGEDY!!
Who knows.

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:And the whole failures of infinity/lances/adams/vessels/impacts thing? I used to love trying to understand minutia like that. Now that the actual important things are broken I don't really care. Sure, it's interesting to try and make sense of it, and I will keep reading. But for all I care final will have 5 impacts involving 5 lances and a chihuahua. Eva will still be broken.
Dude. They are not supposed to make any sense. We are forced into Shinji's shoes. We are supposed to feel his confusion, sadness, frustration .

View Original PostGendou WILL KILL YOU! wrote:Finally, I know many others must feel like me. But (and sorry if the comparison is too harsh) they're forcing themselves to like it, because it's EVA and Anno, just like hardcore Star Wars fans defend the prequels. I'm too old for that, I know I didn't like it and I know why. I'll watch final, but I'm not excited for it. So there. Sorry for the ultra long post.

Shut up. I like, no i love this film. (I love this film even more than the original Tv series, EoE, 1.11 and 2.22.) And i am not forcing myself to like it.

And the rest you wrote: i'm not gonna even bother to answer.
Last edited by Giji Shinka on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:21 pm

Misato keeps promising fan-service. It'd be a shame if the only Eva pilot guaranteed to WILLE since 2.0 didn't fill in that roll.

Also, people complaining about the division-creating decisions made by Anno as he pulls the emotional rug out from underneath them without immediately providing all the answers to every question? In Evangelion no less? Whoever heard of such a thing?

Gendou WILL KILL YOU!
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Postby Gendou WILL KILL YOU! » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:32 pm

OK, I wasn't going to reply to this, but IF anyone else takes the time to comment on my very long rant, I just like to make something clear (which I didn't think had to be clarified, but oh well):

"I know many others must feel like me" is NOT equal to "everyone must accept you agree with me because I know how you feel regardless of what you think"

...And mind you, shutting me up was not very polite, but let's leave it at that. It was rather fun every point you quoted was only to say "well, that's because THAT'S HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE, DUH" ...I'd think after such a long post it'd be clear I know all that. I just didn't like it because I didn't want to see flying ships and 28 year old Asuka on panthernigoki, and I didn't want to see all relationships irreparably broken after 2 movies of buildup. I wanted to see EVA, evolved. Oh and congrats on not getting my comment on 28 year old Asuka. :tongue:

And you know, for a thread that is basically "coming out on not liking Q" this became very hostile in a "and this is why it's retarded you didn't like this flawless masterpiece" way.

Anyway, thanks for reading my very long post, kid. :D
"When GOD is the enemy,
who do you pray to?"

"And DEATH shall have no dominion"


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