Do you Dislike Q?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby xdiesp » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:58 am

They used to say that television made you a passive receiver of messages, unable to push them back and deny them. And even when beer commercials wasn't subliminally pushed on you, you were still getting that stuff into your brain without much of a fight ("ok, but now I *would* get that beer... what was that brand I saw again? Oh, I remember the jingle right").

There's bound to be effects on gamers too. Personally I figure that being in charge of what happens to screen all the time, or at least to your main character, makes you predisposed to feel dominant toward the story at hand.

This Shinji npc doesn't move the way I want him to. Criticism to narrative used to work the other way around: "how come this thing which is what it is, is so surprising to us, let's work on ourselves".
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:58 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Except Misato and Ritsuko wasn't really explaining anything other than basic knowledge about Unit 01 and the DSS Choker. They acted all cryptic and vague every time any other subject was brought up. Not to mention they still had plenty of time to explain everything before the Mark 09 arrived. I mean, Shinji was taking a God damn nap after the fight.

They were right in the middle of explaining to him the important facts from these past 14 years years when Mark.09 appeared. Their info-dump got temporarily derailed when Asuka came to throw her tantrum, but resumed right after she leaved.
They probably had an order by which they wanted to dump to him the revelations : EVA-01 -> DSS Choker -> Time Skip -> Rei is dead (speculation from here) -> Rei is a clone -> Gendo is a bastard -> this isn't NERV but WILLE(+ quick presentation of WILLE) -> neo-NERV works for SEELE(+ quick explanation of who SEELE is) -> what SEELE and Gendo want -> the Impacts and the fact Shinji triggered the last one and devastated the world, explaining the DSS Choker mentioned before and the cold treatment
What I feel they indeed fucked up is the order of the revelations : telling him about the DSS Choker and that he's punished and they mistrust him right at the beginning will just confuse and antagonize him, they should have waited after revealing him about the Impacts what he did, so that he can understand why they are taking so drastic precautions.

As for why they waited before bringing him to the interrogation room, well simply Shinji isn't the center of the universe : Misato is the captain of the AAA Wunder and commander of its fleet, and Ritsuko her second in command, and they just got out of an attack, they had first to assess the losses and damage, reorganize the different crews, designing the most urgent reparations, make sure that no more enemies were in the vicinities, set the course for the place to drop the fleet to resume the supplying, supervise EVA-02's pick up... info-dumping Shinji were pretty low on their list of priorities. And besides before being ready to talk to him they had to prepare the interrogation room(it was provisional and equipped specially for the event) and wait for the last tests results to arrive(especially his deep synch ratio with EVA-01).
So it's no wonder that Shinji had the time to take a nap and Asuka to be picked-up before they were available for the info-dump.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Charsi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:59 am

Disagree. They stop talking to him after Asuka leaves - pretty much as soon as they let him know Rei is gone, the explanations stop.

Ritsuko even turns "off" the glass when Shinji is asking for explanations. Like his questions are irritating/distracting. That isn't the response of people interested in being informative.

They kept him in the dark and it bit them in the ass. Arguably, they didn't know if that was really Shinji at first. But they should have told him everything almost immediately. Instead, their explanation was slow and badly done. Sakura Suzuhara does one bit, Asuka does the next bit, Ritsuko says you can have your SDAT back, and Misato barely says anything the entire time. Bang up job there guys.

It takes an Eva busting through walls before anyone actually fills Shinji in on the important things. By then he's quite right to assume Misato's basically lying about everything (most importantly, Rei), because they were doing such a godawful job of keeping him in the dark that he picked up on it.

It doesn't help that he hears Rei calling to him and nobody else seems to hear it or care.

And this is kind of why I didn't like the movie. The plot requires the characters to be OOC levels of stupid.

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:15 am

View Original PostCharsi wrote:
Ritsuko even turns "off" the glass when Shinji is asking for explanations. Like his questions are irritating/distracting.

At that moment that was exactly the case. They're under attack. Battle stations. Everything else stops.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:17 am

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Disagree. They stop talking to him after Asuka leaves - pretty much as soon as they let him know Rei is gone, the explanations stop.

Ritsuko even turns "off" the glass when Shinji is asking for explanations. Like his questions are irritating/distracting. That isn't the response of people interested in being informative.

Look again at the scene : they stopped the explanation after Misato told him that Rei is gone because at that same moment the entire ship shook and Misato received an emergency call that Mark.09 was attacking them! That's a pretty good reason to stop the info-dump!
And Ritsuko turns "off" the glass because indeed Shinji's questions were distracting : neo-NERV's Champion is launching a raid on them, they didn't had any more time to devote to him.


View Original PostCharsi wrote:They kept him in the dark and it bit them in the ass. Arguably, they didn't know if that was really Shinji at first. But they should have told him everything almost immediately. Instead, their explanation was slow and badly done. Sakura Suzuhara does one bit, Asuka does the next bit, Ritsuko says you can have your SDAT back, and Misato barely says anything the entire time. Bang up job there guys.

It takes an Eva busting through walls before anyone actually fills Shinji in on the important things. By then he's quite right to assume Misato's basically lying about everything (most importantly, Rei), because they were doing such a godawful job of keeping him in the dark that he picked up on it.

WILLE thought that they had all the time they needed to explain everything to Shinji, Misato does a quick and massive fill in when Mark.09 burst through the wall because she understood that it was after Shinji and not EVA-01, and that she must urgently convince him to not go with "Rei", that's why she desperately tries to make him understand the the Rei piloting Mark.09 is not "his" Rei, but of course that was a lost cause since Shinji didn't knew about the "Ayanami series" and even if they had managed to tell him about it before, that's a so pants-on-head crazy story that unless presented irrefutable proofs he wouldn't believe them.


View Original PostCharsi wrote:It doesn't help that he hears Rei calling to him and nobody else seems to hear it or care.

Seeing how the first sentences had an "echo inside the head" effect and that absolutely no one reacted, it's pretty clear that Shinji was the only one who could ear Rei(whoever Rei it was)
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Charsi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:22 am

I will grant that they thought Mark.09 showed up to take Eva-01. Regardless, their explanation was inept and they told him the LEAST important things first.

Example:

We have your Eva locked up and you can't synchronize with it, but even if you do manage to get in and activate it that collar will kill you if you go god mode again.

Also, 14 years have passed.

Oh, hi Asuka. Good of you to drop by.

No, Rei won't be coming to visit. She's gone.

Also ...

(crash)

... ah shit. Don't go with them, okay? NERV is now the bad guys! Hey! Stop! Why don't you believe me?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like.. are you freaking kidding me? Most important things first, for fucks sake. There was PLENTY of opportunity to explain things even a little better at the bridge, but they kept it minimal there too. They kept as many details from Shinji as possible, then are apparently surprised when he jumps on the hand that's stuck into his prison cell.

The 14 year gap isn't actually that important a detail. You know why? Cause he hasn't damn well noticed it yet, that's why. It hasn't clicked that Misato and Ritsuko or the bridge staff are older.

It's infodumping for the benefit of the audience, and comes back to my first point about the characters being written deliberately stupid to advance the plot.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:51 am

View Original PostCharsi wrote:I will grant that they thought Mark.09 showed up to take Eva-01. Regardless, their explanation was inept and they told him the LEAST important things first.

Example:

We have your Eva locked up and you can't synchronize with it, but even if you do manage to get in and activate it that collar will kill you if you go god mode again.

Also, 14 years have passed.

Oh, hi Asuka. Good of you to drop by.

No, Rei won't be coming to visit. She's gone.

Also ...

(crash)

... ah shit. Don't go with them, okay? NERV is now the bad guys! Hey! Stop! Why don't you believe me?

I agree for the explosive collar bit, that was too soon, but not for the rest : they obviously had their own order for the explanations , but took their time to respond when he had questions : when he asked what the DSS Choker did, they responded that it will kill him, when he then ask what the fuck does that means, they explain that 14 years have passed, because that was the important information to know before explaining him that the world has completely changed and that they are in a new organization at war against his father, at this point Shinji still thought that he was in 2018, it would be impossible for him to believe that so much things have changed in so little time.
Then Asuka appears and make her tantrum, then leave with Shinji frantically asking for Rei, and since he didn't looked like he wanted to hear anything else before being answered, they answered his question : Rei is no more. they probably planned to explain more in details about Rei and the clone business on a later point of their exposition, but Mark.09 crashed in...


View Original PostCharsi wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like.. are you freaking kidding me? Most important things first, for fucks sake. There was PLENTY of opportunity to explain things even a little better at the bridge, but they kept it minimal there too. They kept as many details from Shinji as possible, then are apparently surprised when he jumps on the hand that's stuck into his prison cell.

The 14 year gap isn't actually that important a detail. You know why? Cause he hasn't damn well noticed it yet, that's why. It hasn't clicked that Misato and Ritsuko or the bridge staff are older.

It's infodumping for the benefit of the audience, and comes back to my first point about the characters being written deliberately stupid to advance the plot.

Shinji wasn't supposed to have his info-dump in the command bridge, he wasn't even supposed to be brought on that bridge : Misato ordered him to come so she could see him with her own eyes after 14 years. Retrospectively, that wasn't a smart move : there was the resupplying of the fleet and the last connections of EVA-01 to the Wunder to supervise, and had Shinji not actually been Shinji but let's say Zeruel on human disguise, the situation would have turned to the catastrophe.
But the captain wanted to see "BM-03" with her own eyes, so "BM-03" was brought to her, nevermind if that earned the boy the coldest welcome he could ever imagine... and once she saw him, Misato ordered that Shinji be brought to the quarantine zone, were he was supposed to be, but the Nemesis Series intervened before, so battle stations, everything else stops, so Shinji stays and get another dose of cold shouldering...
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:53 am

HEY GUYS, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS THREAD?

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Postby Jurrasic » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:44 pm

HEY GUYS, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS THREAD?


It's Evageeks, what else but arguements over details in a cartoon movie CAN be goin on here? -o-;
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Postby Charsi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:50 pm

Anno has no bloody idea. Fanwank something.

:P

But seriously, the question was, do you dislike Q. I said I did, and why. Is it wrong to go back and forth a little on why?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:13 pm

Let the kid acclimate. You dole out the facts slowly & gradually otherwise some bad shit is bound to happen. Misato & Ritusko were doing a fair job giving Shinji the need to know facts & it makes sense he got upset BUT it also makes sense that if Mark 09 hadn't intruded & he'd taken his time to listen to them Shinji would have been all the better for it in the long run.
Shinji did coldly get all the information he needed to know later on in the film though. All the secrets, reveals & hard-truthts that Misato & Ritusko were "being evil bitches" for not telling Shinji earlier in the film like they were reading him a grocery list. You caused Third Impact - Check. Led to the death of millions of people - check. Rei's dead - Check. Rei's actually a clone of your Mom - Check.

Kawou & Fuyutsuki played "the nice guys" & dumped all the need-to-know facts on Shinji, a fragile 14 year old boy. And what happened afterwards? Hmm... he was broken, shattered & easily susceptible to a rather ludicrous idea of getting into the Eva to "save the world". To use Gendo's words it all went according to plan.

Also to comments of Misato & Ritsuko not acting like their character? That's being read into by fans.
Misato is conflicted about Shinji's return & still cares for the kid. BUT she's also the captain of a giant ship that appears to be in constant conflict from the outside world & priorities have to be taken into account. Make Shinji feel better or try to take control of an Attack situation that could cripple their armada's first flight? Misato did exactly what she did in NGE & the previous two films - the grand scale obstacle comes first.
As for Ritsuko - she's always come across as a practical person & nowhere in the film series do we get an inkling that she gives a shit for Shinji as an individual. In 1.11 she sure didn't approve of Misato's idea to eject the pilot from Unit 01 when it was being fried by the 6th Angel because that would severely damage the Eva. In the movie franchise at least, in Ritsuko's eyes Shinji has always been a pilot first & individual never. Since he's no longer a pilot there's no reason to even care. Hell, Ritsuko's probably only in the room feeding Shinji information BECAUSE Misato told her too & wants to watch his reactions, to find out if he really is the old Shinji she lost.
They aren't acting out of character, they're in character the whole time.

Oh, and to answer the title of this thread, yeah, I like Eva 3.33, A LOT. No dislikes whatsoever.

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:20 pm

Kind of ignored the warning Reichu posted there guys....

I think that the 3.0 hate train has finally started to slow down. I'm not seeing constant bitching whenever the subject of 3.0 is brought up in other Anime forum and boards. However the direction of the movie still lets people who even admittedly liked the movie to poke fun at it in a considerable amount. I still stand by my original saying that 3.0 is a good movie despite the problems it has.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:43 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Oh, and to answer the title of this thread, yeah, I like Eva 3.33, A LOT. No dislikes whatsoever.

Agreed. Most of the complaints stems from people wanting the series to prematurely end by having it blow its exposition wad too early.

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Postby BC Baron » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:14 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Agreed. Most of the complaints stems from people wanting the series to prematurely end by having it blow its exposition wad too early.
Not exactly sure what you're saying here. I for one, disliked 3.33 a great deal; from the sound of things, probably more than anybody else here, but I don't think it was due to the reasons you claimed.

I actually enjoyed the first two Rebuild films for the most part, or at least enough to see past most of the flaws and limitations inherent to its condensed plot feature film format. 3.33 on the other hand, was IMO mostly awful. I was seriously disappointed by most of the story, but I don't think it was because I wanted things to "prematurely end by having it blow its exposition wad" as you say.

Instead, I would have preferred the plot and subplots of the first two films to continue developing in a much more linear manner. I figured there might be some minor time-skip involved before Shinji would be retrieved from Unit-01's core, but I thought that a much shorter interval (maybe a month or so, not unlike what took place post-Zeruel in the original series) would have been more appropriate. Characters that I had previously found interesting and had been somewhat emotionally invested in, are now either pushed far into the background, gone/presumed dead, or completely unrecognizable in their current state. As a result, just about everyone seems extremely one-dimensional and it feels nearly impossible to care whether they ultimately live, die, or end up in some tanged limbo status. Strange that virtually the same plot device which I felt was executed so well in TTGL, should have almost the complete opposite effect here, rendering the entire proceedings barren and pointless.

Maybe I am alone in this opinion, since I pretty much despise post apocalyptic settings. I used to read my fair share of Eva fanfiction, but I don't enjoy it much these days since so much takes place post 3I. As far as I'm concerned, that's supposed to be at the end of the story. The conspiracies have run their course, the big confrontations already took place, Angels and Evas were destroyed in climactic battle sequences, Lances were hurled, lighthawk wings deployed, everybody melted and minds/souls were merged within Instrumentality. The Earth is, for all intents and purposes, FUBAR. Just strikes me as a rather odd place to try and start your story. I guess that's the overall feeling I get from watching 3.33; I can't really derive much drama or suspense from the prospect of preventing Fourth Impact when near Third Impact seems to already have done such a fantastic job in messing up the planet. What exactly is WILLE attempting to save? From where I'm sitting the stakes look rather small at this point. The war appears to be over and it looks like you guys lost...BIGTIME

I can't really say that the mecha or action sequences were much of a consolation prize either. I sort of liked the idea behind the opening battle with the 'solid rocket booster ballet' employed to launch Asuka/Unit-02 (Dash?) into orbit. All the technobabble coordinated with the timed thruster burns worked for me in a similar way to the excessive planning and massive quantities of equipment needed to make stuff like Operation Yashima successful. In other words, it did a decent job of making it all seem extremely difficult, ridiculously expensive and dangerous, but ultimately feasible according to what had been seen previously. Unfortunately, whatever street cred attained by those first few minutes was instantly squandered by that ugly eyesore they called the Wunder and its magical anti-gravity engineering. Plus, just a few minutes later Rei Q is shown piloting an Eva that can fly around without any difficulty, so yeah...

I suppose I should've known the rest of the movie would be a complete letdown the moment the decision was made to turn Unit-01 into the equivalent of a battery which, as anyone who knows about these sorts of things will tell ya, can only be activated by poking it with a giant stick (huh?!). Definitely not a fan of all these new Evas with their ultra modern mark this, dash that designation scheme and didn't find any of the fight scenes to be particularly memorable. Actually, strike that. I think the dual entry plug Eva had these little spinning drones that flew around all over the place (seriously?) in a rather annoying manner and it made quite the impression simply because of how silly it looked. Man, what I wouldn't give for a good old fashioned, close quarters fight between a couple of Evas that used their fists and maybe a prog-knife. Come to think of it, were there any Angels in this movie? Granted, I may have missed something while I was rolling my eyes every other scene.

Let's see, what else. I guess the Kaworu fans should be happy, since he practically assumes the lead role through much of the film. As for me, I wish he had been given about the same amount of screen time as the other Rebuild movies. He just seems like a one trick pony and after a while, I got tired of the dialogue where he says stuff without really saying anything. What can I tell ya? He just seemed way less interesting here than in Episode 24. I don't know; I suppose it could be considered a minor improvement that he didn't force Shinji to kill him with his own hands this time around. Also, if I ever see another goddamn piano again, it'll be too soon.

Just about the only other scene that I liked was when Professor Fuyutsuki took a few minutes to sit down and talk to Shinji. The conversation actually stands out from the rest of the movie because it seems so straightforward and almost normal in comparison to all the other "I hate you and no, I'm not going to elaborate on the reasons why," moments. I wish stuff like the piano-porn could have been dialed back a bit to allow for some more calm conversation-based scenes. Hell, I would've even accepted one where Mari spoke to Shinji and tried to get him up to speed on everything that happened since she last saw him near the end of 2.22, but she'd probably only be capable of getting just a few syllables out before spontaneously breaking into song yet again.

So there you have it. Sorry if some of my reasons for disliking 3.33 might fall slightly outside the box you guys need to place all the dissenting opinions into. I'm actually surprised so many people are defending it so staunchly (and to be honest, I think much of the reasoning is a little over my head), but hey, whatever floats your boat, I guess. When all's said and done, perhaps my biggest issue with this film is that it felt like such a huge left turn away from the story, setting and characters that had resonated with me since the late nineties, that I'm no longer looking forward to the next (and probably final) installment. Somehow via 3.33 Anno has achieved what I previously thought was impossible. He's managed to make me feel like less of a fan.

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Postby Stillborn » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:27 am

^

I agree with you on nearly all accounts.
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Postby Psychodrake » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:21 am

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:I think the dual entry plug Eva had these little spinning drones that flew around all over the place (seriously?) in a rather annoying manner and it made quite the impression simply because of how silly it looked. Man, what I wouldn't give for a good old fashioned, close quarters fight between a couple of Evas that used their fists and maybe a prog-knife.


I'll say that I disagree with a lot of your points, I'm a huge fan of the new freedom allowed with the time-skip to really push the Evangelion unit in many different directions and allow the artists to really have a field-day with what is possibly one of the most unique mecha design out there, but I really didn't like the idea of Unit 13's drones.

Something I really like about Evangelion is the grounded nature of it - This is taking place on our world, these sci-fi elements are limited to what our world may allow. The pallet rifle is one of my favourite sci-fi guns ever due to its linear design and simplicity - It is what it is. I find the prog knives highly entertaining, especially the craft-knife esque one that Unit-02 carried in NGE. It's charming.

Unit 13 is a great design as far as I'm concerned. He looks visceral, mean and a little more pushed into the future, but it was so disappointing to have his method of defense and attack just take the form of these small drones that, for the most part, were just lazily animated and a little bit ugly.

I really like Q, I think it was the best thing to happen to Evangelion for a long time.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:40 am

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:I sort of liked the idea behind the opening battle with the 'solid rocket booster ballet' employed to launch Asuka/Unit-02 (Dash?) into orbit.
Those opening seconds feel like they've escaped from a more interesting original anime in the vein of Planetes -- or even just Moonlight Mile.
Hell, I would've even accepted one where Mari spoke to Shinji and tried to get him up to speed on everything that happened since she last saw him near the end of 2.22, but she'd probably only be capable of getting just a few syllables out before spontaneously breaking into song yet again.
Breaking into song never seems to interrupt the exposition in musicals -- though I'm not sure the world is quite ready for Evangelion the Musical.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:38 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Breaking into song never seems to interrupt the exposition in musicals -- though I'm not sure the world is quite ready for Evangelion the Musical.


Mari's secret identity is Mari Poppins. She flies around in her Eva finding miserable children so she can sing to them and give them useful advice.

I quite liked the space sequence. Perhaps it seems like something out of an action movie, but it helps to illustrate how far Eva technology has come since before the timeskip (remember in Episodes 12 and 22 when they couldn't attack Angels in orbit because the Evas couldn't go into space before?) as well as introducing the Nemesis Series.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

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Postby Jurrasic » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:28 am

Yeah, I loved the space sequence when I first saw it, infact it made me rabidly excited for 3.0 in a way that I hadn't been since about 1 year after 2.22 when i realized I'd be waiting another 2 fawking years for the next movie.

It made it obvious that some time had passed in order for Shinji/Unit 1 to be boxed into a Tesseract and shot into orbit, but when the full movie came out and we found that 14 years had passed, that was completely unexpected, and I still think a poor decision due to the amount of retcon that had to be applied not to mention scrapping everything from the preview. They did a good job establishing and getting us to empathize with Shinji's disorientation, but for god's sake to let that lack of clear explanation of what the FUCK had happened run near the entire movie?? Bad move. The multitude of threads on this forum with a million fan-theories of what the unholy shit just happened is clear testament to that.

I really REALLY wanted to like Q. At this point, I am simply going to class it as 'disappointment - pending the outcome of Final'. It may well shine as part of a united complete story, but at this point it's a massive disconnect from the direction of the first two movies.
"Yes ladies and gentlemen, in France Asuka swears like a sailor and confirms that she's the butch of her apparent lesbian relationship with Mari, Mari insults people that ignore her, and Shinji Ikari tells to Sakura Suzuhara and Misato Katsuragi to go fuck themselves!" -ElMariachi

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:31 am

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:I suppose I should've known the rest of the movie would be a complete letdown the moment the decision was made to turn Unit-01 into the equivalent of a battery which, as anyone who knows about these sorts of things will tell ya, can only be activated by poking it with a giant stick (huh?!).

The removal of Eva-01 is an enormous shift. But I felt if gave Evaangelion the chance to explore Shinji as a character in and of himself, and not just as the pilot of Eva-01. What I most appreciated about 3.0 was the dedicated focus on Shinji, and the first really on-screen blow by blow breakdown of his breakdown. The thing was, Eva-01 and even Misato had to go in order for this to be pulled off convincingly.
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