Do you Dislike Q?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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[SPOILERS] Do you Dislike Q?

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Postby Lance of LoL » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:19 pm

Okay, surely I can't be the only one, right? I just feel that a lot of things could have been handled so much better, so this thread is a general one for venting your frustrations about Q, maybe the disparity between it and the 2.0 preview or any ideas on how you'd have done it better. Just to be clear, that last one is things you would have done to IMPROVE the narrative the movie provided or a basis from the preview, not for promoting your personal fandom or opinions on what they should have done instead of either of those.

This entire idea stems from my reaction to the Q narrative which runs something like this

Shinji: What happened?
Misato: Nothing, I hate you, wear this bomb collar.
Shinji: Asuka, you're still young, what happened?
Asuka: We're immortal and I won't explain shit all else, just hate you more than before.
Shinji: Mari, how are you?
Mari: Like I ever made an ounce of sense to begin with, good luck.
Shinji: Ayanami, that you?
ReiQ: Come with me.
Shinji: If anyone asks why I ran off after this, they're fucking stupid.

And then

Shinji: What did I do?
Kaworu: You murdered everyone in Japan by accident and I can help you fix it.
Shinji: Excellent. Since we're here, have you got time to answer some stuff no one else answered for me?
Kaworu: Nope, MUSIC MONTAGE!
Shinji: Oh you Angelic piece of-!

I just feel the narrative could have been handled a lot better if someone took five minutes to get Shinji up to speed on what happened in the 14 years he was gone. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that feeling of being lost and the fact that no one was explaining themselves plays into why he escaped with ReiQ to begin with, but even after he left, Kaworu, the one person who seemingly gives him answers, only tells him about this horrendous atrocity he's responsible for instead of catching him up on the 14 years he missed.

I spent the majority of this film asking things like "If Shinji is a war criminal, why isn't he on trial instead of strapped up like Battle Royale?" and "Why are the pilots still 14?" and "Where the hell is anyone beside Willie and Nerv?" Again, I understand that many of these things play into Shinji's feelings and his motivations and sense of isolation, but for all the time they dedicated to a music piece and him slowly figuring out ReiQ isn't the Rei he tried to save, I feel a few minutes set aside to tell Shinji and the audience what has changed since he was away wouldn't go amiss.

This film is a huge departure from the formula up until now, and while that isn't a bad thing, some context would be nice.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:30 pm

*ahem* You just don't get it.

That is all.

(okay that's not all, but there's a wave of hysteria in this fandom and in this forum that prevents any real discussion happening on this. I felt it necessary to say that not all agree.)

This was storytelling the way it had to be, the way that was most interesting. The characters actions and motives and words add up pretty well if one is willing to sit back and reflect on it all for awhile. Yes even Shinji's.

For a lot of people, this movie is clearly something they'll have to stew on for many years. That's nothing new to the Eva fandom. So these are interesting and good times indeed.

Oh, and in answer to your question it is my favorite of the Rebuild films, by far.
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Postby CJD » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:04 am

It's not the film I expected. It's not the film I wanted. It's a film that I wouldn't be exaggerating nearly as much as you'd think if I said it plunged me into DESPAIR. Do I dislike it, though? I think the obvious answer is "Yes." but I'm hesitant to say that. I'm hesitant to say "Yes." because even though the emotions Q has caused me to feel have been almost universally negative, pain, sadness, anger, the fact is that it has made me feel. Very few things achieve that. Can I truly dislike a film for bringing me pain over joy when the goal was never to bring joy? Can I hate it for being a tragedy when the intent was to be tragic?

Q wasn't the film that I expected. It wasn't the film that I wanted. At times it felt like a dream, like I'd suddenly wake up and find out it was still November 17th, and the whole movie and everything that's happened since then has been just one horrible nightmare, and Q in actuality is more of the same from the first two Rebuild movies. Do I dislike Q? In the end... if I say anything other than "Yes." I'm lying to myself. It was a good film, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:28 am

The reason why people hate Q, is that they are afraid of moving away from the "comfort zone". (And it's confusing)
This works just like in the real life.
If you don't try/see new things, or accept what has happened, and not moving away from that zone, you will not be able to move on with your life and enjoy it even more after you've moved on.
it's not exaggerate to say that Q changed me.

Q is easily the best rebuilt film so far.

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:17 am

I don't dislike 3.0 at all. In fact its what convinced me that Rebuild isn't just a pointless retread of the original series.

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Postby Blue Monday » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:57 am

Pretty much what TextOnly said. Word for word.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:12 am

Favorite Rebuild film by a landslide.

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Postby atarashiieva » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:44 am

Did you knew about the plot/characters before watching it?

I think it's a key question, because the movie was designed to keep the audience surprised. Nobody knew anything about the movie before its release, as Shinji didn't know what was going on after waking up. One of the points of 3.0 is to put yourself on Shinji's shoes, to feel the same emotions and doubts as him, and progressively discover new things through the movie. But if you knew all the details before, then the movie doesn't make sense.

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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:21 am

I love it as a film, and I love it even more as an instrument of obliteration against the criticisms of Rebuild I've been hearing since its inception. I didn't know THIS was coming, but I knew Anno had something up his sleeve that the "soulless action films" crowd never could see. "Anno is dumbing down Evangelion to appeal to a mass audience! He's going after the Transformers crowd, making action movies that appeal to as many people as possible!" Can't say that now.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:26 am

I find it a bit hilarious when people who like mainstream action films/animes were kinda "trolled" when they first watched 3.0.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Seele largely has the right of it here. People are naturally allowed to like or dislike the film as they choose, but the reasoning given in the OP isn't very compelling as far as rationale goes. Judge the film based on what it is, not what you wanted it to be.

That said, there are a number of things about Q (and the NTE in general) that bug me:

    * Shinji's role -- casting him as a tragic rather than a pathetic figure bites.
    * The "curse of Eva" -- add in the "no longer human" business here.
    * The nature of the Evas -- the reduced emphasis on the soul (if any) within each Eva really stings, and the plug depth business is really irritating.
    * Plot whiplash -- the "chosen one" role for the Mark VI, the contract with Lilith, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar, soulless Rei, toothless Seele, etc. All of these seemingly important elements were unceremoniously trashed, and for what?
    * Anno's stubborn refusal to develop key elements of the plot and setting -- Shikinami, the IPEA, Mari, Kaji, Wille, Kaworu, etc. Mari and Asuka are the big losers here, but most of the characters and organizations in the films get the short shrift.
    * The roles of the Angels -- some interesting ones were axed, and many in the NTE are largely irrelevant.
    * Stock villains -- The Nemesis Series? Really?

. . . and so on. I realize some or all of this might be addressed in Final, but from where things sit now it seems like Anno's charging full steam ahead with the show's themes and sacrificing a hell of a lot of worldbuilding and character development in the process. That makes for a rough and grating set of movies that are so far devoid of the things that made NGE really sing for me.

So, to answer the OP: can't really say I liked it, but that's less because of Q and more because the NTE in general isn't working for me. Anno can do (and previously has done) much better.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:22 pm

Just my two cents, but isn't this thread a quasi-clone of the Q reaction thread?
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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:54 pm

Anno can do (and previously has done) much better.

We shall see.
We can't judge Anno's decisions on characters, settings and plot or how good he is until the fourth film is out.
Right now it's too early.
Last edited by Giji Shinka on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:09 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
    * Shinji's role -- casting him as a tragic rather than a pathetic figure bites.
    * The "curse of Eva" -- add in the "no longer human" business here.
    * The nature of the Evas -- the reduced emphasis on the soul (if any) within each Eva really stings, and the plug depth business is really irritating.
    * Plot whiplash -- the "chosen one" role for the Mark VI, the contract with Lilith, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar, soulless Rei, toothless Seele, etc. All of these seemingly important elements were unceremoniously trashed, and for what?
    * Anno's stubborn refusal to develop key elements of the plot and setting -- Shikinami, the IPEA, Mari, Kaji, Wille, Kaworu, etc. Mari and Asuka are the big losers here, but most of the characters and organizations in the films get the short shrift.
    * The roles of the Angels -- some interesting ones were axed, and many in the NTE are largely irrelevant.
    * Stock villains -- The Nemesis Series? Really?


These. I know Anno's trying to put the audience in Shinji's place.....but it makes it so much harder for me to actually CARE about the characters in the show that were much more developed and explored by this point in the TV series. Oh snap, maybe he doesn't WANT us to care.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:09 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:We shall see.
We can judge Anno's decisions on characters, settings and plot or how good he is until the fourth film is out.
Right now it's too early.


Not for me. Q was make or break; it doesn't matter how it turns out at this point, because too many things have gone past the point of no return for it to matter. All that's left now is a(n admittedly entertaining) spectacle of a finale and a return to the mysteries and nuance of NGE.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:35 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Not for me. Q was make or break; it doesn't matter how it turns out at this point, because too many things have gone past the point of no return for it to matter. All that's left now is a(n admittedly entertaining) spectacle of a finale and a return to the mysteries and nuance of NGE.

Fact: You will love the whole rebuilt series no matter what, in time. Like i (And many of us) used to hate EoE. (Which i consider "worse" than 3.0)But now we (Almost everyone) all think it's a classic and love it.

Also, i think that Anno broke NGE during the production more than he "broke" Q.
Last edited by Giji Shinka on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:36 pm

Q definitely was not the film that I waited two years to see. It really wasn't what I wanted. I watched it, and yeah, it was good. I get that the fact that it isn't what I wanted means nothing regarding how good of a film it was, but it was so drastically different from what I thought it would be that it was a little hard to enjoy. Even the parts of 2.0 that left the beaten track I still managed to find awesome. Something about Q just rubbed me the wrong way. Let's see what 4.0 does.

EDIT: Apparently this is a partial clone of CJD's post. Huh.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:39 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Q definitely was not the film that I waited two years to see. It really wasn't what I wanted. I watched it, and yeah, it was good. I get that the fact that it isn't what I wanted means nothing regarding how good of a film it was, but it was so drastically different from what I thought it would be that it was a little hard to enjoy. Even the parts of 2.0 that left the beaten track I still managed to find awesome. Something about Q just rubbed me the wrong way. Let's see what 4.0 does.

EDIT: Apparently this is a partial clone of CJD's post. Huh.

Life is harsh.
You can't always get everything you want in life.
I think that people who have lost something, have been depressed or haven't achieved anything understand and love this film more. (Like me)
Last edited by Giji Shinka on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:42 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:Life is harsh. You can't always get everything you want in life.

Yeah, I know. When something really isn't what you were looking forward to, it knocks you for a loop for a few days/weeks.

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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:52 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:....but it makes it so much harder for me to actually CARE about the characters in the show that were much more developed and explored by this point in the TV series. Oh snap, maybe he doesn't WANT us to care.


I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean. Why do people constantly compare the demands of an (about) 10 hour TV series to four hour-and-forty-minute-ish movies? They were more "developed" at this point in the series? That's because TV can have stuff like "Maya getting laundry" be a plot point. You can wish Rebuild were episodic (sometimes I do to), but a movie is a movie and a TV series is a TV series. Anno locks in on the most relevant points, sacrificing the sprawl of TV for focus. This shit is about Shinji. I know not everyone's happy about that, but I applaud Anno's resistance of temptation as far as the shiny tangents he could have taken. Everybody has their list of big digressions they wish to see, but if that doesn't directly concern Shinji, Anno ain't havin' it.


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