Soul Imprinting Process

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Soul Imprinting Process

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Postby Maverick » Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:50 pm

I've heard this theory a long time ago... but I lost its train of thought...
Could someone explain it here? It should be a valuable addition to the forum's archives ;)
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Postby EVA-01X » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:14 pm

I really think this somthing that has risen out of the world of fanfiction, that what Yui did was part of some plan so that they could fight the Angels. This is not true. She was lost in an accident, discorperated by the EVA to serve as it's soul and it's pilots protector. Now the MAGI however used somthing kinda similler to this for them to function the way that they do, put it was a "Personality Transplant OS" as they called it in the series.
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Postby Nephilim » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:19 pm

Some people say that it is needed to have a contact experiment with the eva to have a soul inside the core. That's the reason that they give to explain the soul of Kyoko and Yui in eva 02 and 01.

All this soul topic is very hard to explain and to get to an agreement.

Personally, i think that all the stuff about how the souls gets inside the eva has more metaphisycs involved, and it has to do with the soul's will also, if it wants to be inside the eva or not.

And i have a question: Why having a school full with motherless children as potential eva pilots? i've always thought that was because they use their mothers' souls in the evas if a child was chosen.
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Postby Phaze » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:07 pm

Nephilim wrote:And i have a question: Why having a school full with motherless children as potential eva pilots? i've always thought that was because they use their mothers' souls in the evas if a child was chosen.

Yes, and perhaps also because it puts them in the right state of mind to generate a powerful AT-field, which I consider to be a physical manifestation of the shells the pilots have put themselves in...

As for the soul imprinting theory, I recall it was the idea that a soul could be "imprinted" into an eva's core instead of transferring the person's actual soul. I doubt it's true since there's little to no evidence to support it in the series.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:55 pm

I didn't believe the whole "soul imprinting" business at one point, but once I heard the right take on it, I jumped straight onto the bandwagon.

Anyways, check out my big post here, and hopefully I wasn't spouting COMPLETE nonsense. ;)

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Postby Phaze » Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 pm

I agree, Lilith's soul is in unit-00, but the idea that a soul can be in multiple places at once is false, and unneccesary.

Note that in the episode that shows unit-00's original (failed) contact experiment, Ritsuko mentions it was due in part from insanity of the pilot. Rei has two sides: an angel's, and a human's, she is completely uncertain in every way, including who her enemies are, and who her allies are. The berserker Eva which attacked Gendo and Ritsuko underlined that.

Or if you want to take a different route, you'd say Ritsuko was attacked because Rei still had a (subconscious, perhaps) grudge toward Naoko.

This Shin-Seki person seems a little to literal-minded towards Eva, which is fine for most points, but when dealing with a series with so many hidden layers, you need an extremely open mind.

Incase I didn't make it clear in my above paragraphs, I believe Lilith's soul is in unit-00, but I don't believe the soul imprinting process.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:00 pm

Phaze wrote:I agree, Lilith's soul is in unit-00, but the idea that a soul can be in multiple places at once is false, and unneccesary.


Yet this idea is present right in NGE itself! When the giant Anti A.T. Field spreads, we see Rei (or even more than one) appearing to every person, when he/she is liquified -- all at the same time. And when EVA-01 is absorbed into Lilith/Rei, we see a myriad Reis swimming around inside. This, taken together with other occurrences in the show, seem to suggest that Rei can not only be in one place at the same time, but that she can transcend time, as well.

Also, regarding your statement above... You say that Lilith's soul is in EVA-00. Is it not also in Rei 2, as well? How can this be, unless the same soul is in two places at once?

But as I mentioned before, I don't even think the property of Rei that allows her to transcend space and time need apply to this case, as the soul imprint theory provides a much better explanation, IMO.

Note that in the episode that shows unit-00's original (failed) contact experiment, Ritsuko mentions it was due in part from insanity of the pilot.


Activation experiment, you mean. A contact experiment is something completely different, and it is referred to only twice in the series. EVA-01's Contact Experiment is what caused Yui to liquify, and EVA-02's caused Kyoko to go nutters. In both cases, an Eva got a soul at the expense of a mortal.

Ritsuko wasn't even certain that Rei's "mental instability" was the cause. In fact, there seemed to be more to it that Ritsuko did not say:

Misato: Well, what was the cause of the accident in the last
experiment?

Ritsuko: We still don't know. However, the primary cause is
believed to be a mental instability in the pilot.

Misato: Mental instability? In Rei?

Ritsuko: Yes. She was much more disturbed than we could expect.

Misato: What happened?

Ritsuko: I don't know, but she might have...

Misato: Do you have an idea?

Ritsuko: No, that can't be...


Rei has two sides: an angel's, and a human's, she is completely uncertain in every way, including who her enemies are, and who her allies are.


I wouldn't necessarily dump Rei in with the Angels that she is made to fight against. Those Angels are the offspring of Adam, Lilith's counterpart. Rei has the soul of Lilith, the source of humans, and thus I think it would go to reason that Rei would instinctively feel allied to humans and other carbon-based lifeforms. Lilith is only an "Angel" because Seele lumped her in with a completely separate group of organisms, Adam and his descendents.

The berserker Eva which attacked Gendo and Ritsuko underlined that.

Or if you want to take a different route, you'd say Ritsuko was attacked because Rei still had a (subconscious, perhaps) grudge toward Naoko.


The latter option seems much more logical, IMO. Although, I should point out, the rage is coming straight from the Eva, who is "berserk" and thus beyond a pilot's control.

This Shin-Seki person seems a little to literal-minded towards Eva, which is fine for most points, but when dealing with a series with so many hidden layers, you need an extremely open mind.


Heh, I wouldn't be so quick to judge Shin-seiki based on that one example (which, IMO, does an excellent job of connecting the dots). He is not so much "literal-minded" as he is interested in taking everything we are shown in NGE at face value. Rather than *merely* messing with our minds (which the series does quite well), Shin-seiki thinks that Anno is giving us the pieces of the Evangelion puzzle through not only the obvious cues (dialogue and such) but through a complicated visual language as well. Most things in NGE are there for a reason, and to dismiss evidence by claiming that one's interpretation is too "literal-minded" is to be blind to many of the clues that Anno is giving us.

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Postby Phaze » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:48 pm

Reichu wrote:Yet this idea is present right in NGE itself! When the giant Anti A.T. Field spreads, we see Rei (or even more than one) appearing to every person, when he/she is liquified -- all at the same time. And when EVA-01 is absorbed into Lilith/Rei, we see a myriad Reis swimming around inside. This, taken together with other occurrences in the show, seem to suggest that Rei can not only be in one place at the same time, but that she can transcend time, as well.

This is what I was talking about when I said Shin-Seiki's theories are a little to literal-minded for my liking. All the times Rei appeared to Shinji during complementation was in his own mind. Remember when he was absorbed by that one angel earlier on in the series (I never took the time to memorize then angels' names)? Remember his "train of thought?"

Reichu wrote:Also, regarding your statement above... You say that Lilith's soul is in EVA-00. Is it not also in Rei 2, as well? How can this be, unless the same soul is in two places at once?

I already mentioned my theory in this thread, apologies if my meaning was not clear. My idea is that Rei II is able to project her own soul into Eva's core.

Reichu wrote:Activation experiment, you mean. A contact experiment is something completely different, and it is referred to only twice in the series. EVA-01's Contact Experiment is what caused Yui to liquify, and EVA-02's caused Kyoko to go nutters. In both cases, an Eva got a soul at the expense of a mortal.

Thank you for the correction.

Reichu wrote:Ritsuko wasn't even certain that Rei's "mental instability" was the cause. In fact, there seemed to be more to it that Ritsuko did not say:

Misato: Well, what was the cause of the accident in the last
experiment?

Ritsuko: We still don't know. However, the primary cause is
believed to be a mental instability in the pilot.

Misato: Mental instability? In Rei?

Ritsuko: Yes. She was much more disturbed than we could expect.

Misato: What happened?

Ritsuko: I don't know, but she might have...

Misato: Do you have an idea?

Ritsuko: No, that can't be...

Yes, Ritsuko was apparently leaning on another idea. Could it be the idea that Rei is using her own soul?

Reichu wrote:I wouldn't necessarily dump Rei in with the Angels that she is made to fight against. Those Angels are the offspring of Adam, Lilith's counterpart. Rei has the soul of Lilith, the source of humans, and thus I think it would go to reason that Rei would instinctively feel allied to humans and other carbon-based lifeforms. Lilith is only an "Angel" because Seele lumped her in with a completely separate group of organisms, Adam and his descendents.

Rei is an angel the exact same way Kaworu is considered an angel, speaking of which, Kaworu mentioned that he could use his own soul to pilot unit-02, this could be one of those "cues" you mentioned?

Reichu wrote:The latter option seems much more logical, IMO. Although, I should point out, the rage is coming straight from the Eva, who is "berserk" and thus beyond a pilot's control.

It is out of the pilot's control because the soul is in control. Since Rei I is supposed to be the soul, which we both agree on, our viewpoints are the same here. One thing I would like to add, however, is that Rei, despite recieving a numerous amount of injuries, showed no sign of pain whatsoever after Gendo rescued her aside from looking a bit disoriented. I think it may be because her soul was still in the Evangelion, her injuries did not take effect until later, another "cue" perhaps? It is most definetely not because she always shows little emotion. She is clearly in pain in episode 1.

Looking back on this post I realize I seemed a little overtly offensive, pay no mind. :wink:
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Postby kosure » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:21 pm

Reichu wrote:When the giant Anti A.T. Field spreads, we see Rei (or even more than one) appearing to every person, when he/she is liquified -- all at the same time.


I think that it was in the EOE commentary, (not that that makes it true) but wherever it came from theres the theory that before you explode into LCL, you see who you truly love. (or your worst fear.) So if thats true, thoese Reis are in everyones respective minds.

But that doesn't account for the Reis everywhere else. Like before Misato blows up. Or when Shinji sees her in episde 1.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:50 pm

Phaze wrote:This is what I was talking about when I said Shin-Seiki's theories are a little to literal-minded for my liking. All the times Rei appeared to Shinji during complementation was in his own mind. Remember when he was absorbed by that one angel earlier on in the series (I never took the time to memorize then angels' names)? Remember his "train of thought?"


If I remember correctly, he was talking to himself in that instance. He talks with Rei on the train in #26' (and #19 in Touji's dream, oddly enough).

There is no reason to believe that when other people appear to you during Instrumentality they are somehow not there. The barriers between individuals are broken. Others can see into your mind and your memories. It simply does not make sense to throw all humanity into one giant puddle where their minds intermingle freely (i.e., Instrumentality), then say that Shinji is not really having interactions with the other characters. This is not what the series tells us at all.

I already mentioned my theory in this thread, apologies if my meaning was not clear. My idea is that Rei II is able to project her own soul into Eva's core.


If souls could simply be "projected", there would be no need to give Evas souls in the first place. The series implies that Evas need souls of their own to be able to generate an A.T. Field -- and there needs to be a resident soul for the pilot to synchronize with. (Kaworu is a special case.)

Rei is an angel the exact same way Kaworu is considered an angel


I don't remember Rei being given a number of SEELE's list of Angels. On the other hand, Rei is a human with the soul of a source of life the same as Kaworu.

speaking of which, Kaworu mentioned that he could use his own soul to pilot unit-02, this could be one of those "cues" you mentioned?


Could you elaborate?

It is out of the pilot's control because the soul is in control. Since Rei I is supposed to be the soul, which we both agree on, our viewpoints are the same here.


I thought your idea was that Rei 2 was "projecting" her soul? Rei 1 and Rei 2 are different entities, as it goes -- they share the same soul, but they have different minds (personalities and memories, essentially).

One thing I would like to add, however, is that Rei, despite recieving a numerous amount of injuries, showed no sign of pain whatsoever after Gendo rescued her aside from looking a bit disoriented. I think it may be because her soul was still in the Evangelion, her injuries did not take effect until later, another "cue" perhaps? It is most definetely not because she always shows little emotion. She is clearly in pain in episode 1.


Hard to say, really... Rei didn't seem especially affected after EVA-00 became a crispy critter in episode #06, either. There is probably a simpler explanation that your "soul projection" hypothesis, though.

Also, if you do not believe that the soul imprint theory holds water, how do you explain how Kyoko's body remains intact after EVA-02 sucks her soul out? No soul = no A.T. Field = Tang.

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Postby Phaze » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:04 am

Reichu wrote:If I remember correctly, he was talking to himself in that instance. He talks with Rei on the train in #26' (and #19 in Touji's dream, oddly enough)
There is no reason to believe that when other people appear to you during Instrumentality they are somehow not there. The barriers between individuals are broken. Others can see into your mind and your memories. It simply does not make sense to throw all humanity into one giant puddle where their minds intermingle freely (i.e., Instrumentality), then say that Shinji is not really having interactions with the other characters. This is not what the series tells us at all.
.

At that point in time, he was not fully a being of instrumentality. Third Impact did not actually begin until he decided he wanted it to. "Everybody hates me, so they can all just die." At that time, he was still being complemented, which is what happens before to possibly all of humanity before they become part of instrumentality.
If you want to see the point where all beings were finally merged together, fast-forward to the part where he's speaking to Rei in the pool of LCL, realizing this is not what he wanted.

Reichu wrote:If souls could simply be "projected", there would be no need to give Evas souls in the first place. The series implies that Evas need souls of their own to be able to generate an A.T. Field -- and there needs to be a resident soul for the pilot to synchronize with. (Kaworu is a special case.)

I don't remember Rei being given a number of SEELE's list of Angels. On the other hand, Rei is a human with the soul of a source of life the same as Kaworu.

Yes, Kaworu is a special case, I believe Rei is as well. They are both angels, despite Rei not being listed as one (I believe Gendo may not have even revealed to SEELE that Rei was any more than a pilot). Kaworu even states "You are the same as me." If Kaworu has the ability to use his own soul to pilot Eva, then Rei should be able to as well.

Reichu wrote:I thought your idea was that Rei 2 was "projecting" her soul? Rei 1 and Rei 2 are different entities, as it goes -- they share the same soul, but they have different minds (personalities and memories, essentially).

They share the same soul, so Rei I's soul is Rei II's soul, even if they, themselves may be different.

Reichu wrote:Also, if you do not believe that the soul imprint theory holds water, how do you explain how Kyoko's body remains intact after EVA-02 sucks her soul out? No soul = no A.T. Field = Tang.

Hard to say. Either a plot hole, or the fact that she went insane, killing herself.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:13 am

Phaze wrote:At that point in time, he was not fully a being of instrumentality. Third Impact did not actually begin until he decided he wanted it to. "Everybody hates me, so they can all just die." At that time, he was still being complemented, which is what happens before to possibly all of humanity before they become part of instrumentality.
If you want to see the point where all beings were finally merged together, fast-forward to the part where he's speaking to Rei in the pool of LCL, realizing this is not what he wanted.


Technically, "Complementation" and "Instrumentality" are the exact same thing. They are simply different translations of the same word, "hokan" (as in "Jinrui Hokan Keikaku", the "Human Instrumentality/Complementation Project").

As for the entire sequence in EoE that precedes true Instrumentality (when everything on the planet is turned into Tang) -- which begins with after Shinji's sandbox flashback and ends with him strangling Asuka -- we like to refer to this as the "Pre-3I Instrumentality Sequence". Here, Shinji is connected to the minds of a very select group of people -- Rei, Asuka, Misato, and Ritsuko -- after being liquified inside the entry plug of EVA-01 (yet again!). Rei is essentially acting as the "medium" by which their minds are connected at this point. (You can read a thread about it here, up to the second page at least.)

While it's possible to interpret this sequence as being all in Shinji's head, it makes considerably more sense if he is really interacting with the characters. For one thing, he is witness to one of Misato's memories -- her and Kaji having a college "boinking" session -- which he couldn't have possibly known about beforehand. Asuka's behavior is also a major giveaway; the antipathy she is dishing him was anticipated by the events of earlier episodes, such as her true feelings regarding the kissing incident of episode #15 (which the two of them begin to reenact at one point in EoE, with somewhat less tender results).

Yes, Kaworu is a special case, I believe Rei is as well.


Rei also does not have the same bond ("Adam's flesh") to the Evas that Kaworu does, so how can she be a "special case"?

They are both angels, despite Rei not being listed as one (I believe Gendo may not have even revealed to SEELE that Rei was any more than a pilot). Kaworu even states "You are the same as me."


As I have mentioned, the term "Angel" is more an artifice of Seele's classification system that something truly substantial. Adam and Lilith are both *Sources of Life*, created by the same alien beings, but they are not related any more than that. As I said before, when Kaworu says that they are the same, is it not a simple matter of "we're both angels", but more specifically, "We are both sources of life living in Lilim bodies." Rei's soul is not that of just *any* "angel" -- it is that of Adam's counterpart, and, in many ways, rival.

If Kaworu has the ability to use his own soul to pilot Eva, then Rei should be able to as well.


If you consider WHY Kaworu is able to do this, it becomes obvious that it would not work for Rei. Also consider that Rei took several months simply to SYNCHRONIZE with EVA-00, whereas Kaworu was able to achieve an "impossible" synchronization with EVA-02 right off the bat.

They share the same soul, so Rei I's soul is Rei II's soul, even if they, themselves may be different.


You say that Rei 2 is "projecting" her soul into EVA-00's core, but that Rei 1 resides within the core. Rei 2 would not be able to somehow "project" her former self into the Eva -- Rei 1's soul had to be put into the Eva before Naoko killed her.

Hard to say. Either a plot hole, or the fact that she went insane, killing herself.


Insanity does not keep a soulless body from dissolving into LCL. Some force had to be holding her body intact, even though her soul was inside EVA-02. Blaming something in a series as well-constructed as NGE on a "plot hole" is not preferable when a perfectly feasible explanation can be found. Kyoko's body remained intact, I think, because Anno was giving us a subtle clue about what was really going on.

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Postby Phaze » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:33 pm

Reichu wrote:Technically, "Complementation" and "Instrumentality" are the exact same thing. They are simply different translations of the same word, "hokan" (as in "Jinrui Hokan Keikaku", the "Human Instrumentality/Complementation Project").

When I said being complemented, I meant he was still in the process of reverting to LCL.

Reichu wrote:As for the entire sequence in EoE that precedes true Instrumentality (when everything on the planet is turned into Tang) -- which begins with after Shinji's sandbox flashback and ends with him strangling Asuka -- we like to refer to this as the "Pre-3I Instrumentality Sequence". Here, Shinji is connected to the minds of a very select group of people -- Rei, Asuka, Misato, and Ritsuko -- after being liquified inside the entry plug of EVA-01 (yet again!). Rei is essentially acting as the "medium" by which their minds are connected at this point. (You can read a thread about it here, up to the second page at least.)


While it's possible to interpret this sequence as being all in Shinji's head, it makes considerably more sense if he is really interacting with the characters. For one thing, he is witness to one of Misato's memories -- her and Kaji having a college "boinking" session -- which he couldn't have possibly known about beforehand. Asuka's behavior is also a major giveaway; the antipathy she is dishing him was anticipated by the events of earlier episodes, such as her true feelings regarding the kissing incident of episode #15 (which the two of them begin to reenact at one point in EoE, with somewhat less tender results).


Instead of typing up an explanation for myself, I'll take the easy way out and make use of the copy/paste function:
Q) When Shinji strangles Asuka in The End of Evangelion: Sincerely Yours, is this a real memory or part of the Complementation project?

A) This is a part of the process of Complementation. There are several indications of this.

First of all, the scene itself is very surreal and does not feel right as a memory. It does not logically fit in the Evangelion timeline (it would probably have occurred somewhere between episodes 23 and 24). Shinji is not nearly desperate enough during this time to strangle Asuka, and I seriously doubt Asuka would stand there idely and she suffocated. Further, the cut of the spilled coffee pot is inserted into the Director's Cut of episode 24 (before the episode begins) but is used in a completely different context (Asuka's realization to Kaji is not coming back).

In the scene Asuka says, "You're afraid of Misato and the First... " which mirrors exactly what Shinji said in The End of Evangelion: Air, "I... I'm scared of both Misato and Ayanami..." before he masturbates to her comatose body. All signs point to this sequence being an expression of Shinji's frustration with Asuka, and also his feelings of guilt for what he did. Moments earlier Asuka's (or perhaps more specifically, the Asuka in Shinji's mind) confronts Shinji saying, "Idiot! I 'know' about your jerk-off fantasies of me. Do it again like usual... I'll even stand here and watch."

This is what I believe. True, that only refers to the strangulation scene, but I think the same basic princible can apply to to the rest of the scenes.
Just to add some things, Rei was the only one who really responded to his questions and such, she was standing off to the side, spectating. The others were simply criticising him, what reason did they possibly have to rip apart all his insecurity? Also, are you suggesting that the both the Rei and Asuka seen during the sandbox scene, as well as the Rei and Asuka, both simultaneously insulting him (Let's break up, I would never do it with you, DIE!, etc.) also real?

Reichu wrote:Rei also does not have the same bond ("Adam's flesh") to the Evas that Kaworu does, so how can she be a "special case"?


True, she does not have the soul of Adam, but she does have the soul of the angel called "Lilith," it's irrelevant that Adam gave birth to the angels, and Lilith gave birth to humanity (humanity is the "18th angel" anyway).

Reichu wrote:As I have mentioned, the term "Angel" is more an artifice of Seele's classification system that something truly substantial. Adam and Lilith are both *Sources of Life*, created by the same alien beings, but they are not related any more than that. As I said before, when Kaworu says that they are the same, is it not a simple matter of "we're both angels", but more specifically, "We are both sources of life living in Lilim bodies." Rei's soul is not that of just *any* "angel" -- it is that of Adam's counterpart, and, in many ways, rival.

I'm not sure what you mean by *any* angel, but regardless of which she still has an angelic nature (pun not intended). It all depends on how you want to classify the term "angel" if you mean a blue wavelength pattern, then Rei is an angel.

Reichu wrote:If you consider WHY Kaworu is able to do this, it becomes obvious that it would not work for Rei. Also consider that Rei took several months simply to SYNCHRONIZE with EVA-00, whereas Kaworu was able to achieve an "impossible" synchronization with EVA-02 right off the bat.

Kaworu was much more adept then Rei was, he knew perfectly well, chances are, of his own origins. Rei, on the other hand, seemed to know nothing more than the fact that she was a clone.

Reichu wrote:You say that Rei 2 is "projecting" her soul into EVA-00's core, but that Rei 1 resides within the core. Rei 2 would not be able to somehow "project" her former self into the Eva -- Rei 1's soul had to be put into the Eva before Naoko killed her.

I'm saying Rei I's soul resides within the core, either way, it's Lilith's soul that is in the core.

Reichu wrote:Insanity does not keep a soulless body from dissolving into LCL. Some force had to be holding her body intact, even though her soul was inside EVA-02. Blaming something in a series as well-constructed as NGE on a "plot hole" is not preferable when a perfectly feasible explanation can be found. Kyoko's body remained intact, I think, because Anno was giving us a subtle clue about what was really going on.

Eva has quite a bit of events that could only be described as a plot hole, this very forum has realized quite a few of them, if you care to do a search.
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Let the debating continue :)
Last edited by Phaze on Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Phaze » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:51 pm

Oops, double post.
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Postby kosure » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:53 pm

I thought this was becoming a far too Reichu/Phaze-centric thread, so I went through the trouble of reading everything, and have a few comments, and a few questions.

First lets start with Reichu

Also, if you do not believe that the soul imprint theory holds water, how do you explain how Kyoko's body remains intact after EVA-02 sucks her soul out? No soul = no A.T. Field = Tang.


While I respect the mathmatic representatino of what i will call Reichu's Tang Theory, I don't nessecarly agree with it. The A.T. field is ofter reffered to as similar to the barrier between (the active minds of) autistic people, and the rest of the world. And while I realize that Autism, is not the same thing as being crazy, I don't think that it is nessecaraly a persons soul that makes some autistic people unresponsive.

Either way I think that it is entirely possible that a human mind, not in a normal state (wheter that abnormal state be autisim, craziness, or a very bad case of gas) could prodouce an A.T. field randomly. At least enough to prevent someone from turning into tang.

While it's possible to interpret this sequence as being all in Shinji's head, it makes considerably more sense if he is really interacting with the characters. For one thing, he is witness to one of Misato's memories -- her and Kaji having a college "boinking" session -- which he couldn't have possibly known about beforehand. Asuka's behavior is also a major giveaway; the antipathy she is dishing him was anticipated by the events of earlier episodes, such as her true feelings regarding the kissing incident of episode #15 (which the two of them begin to reenact at one point in EoE, with somewhat less tender results).


The fact of the matter is, that I don't think there is truly substatial evidence in EoE, to say that at this point, everyone is goo, and at this point everyone is not goo.

Furthermore, It is possible that even when Shinji was talking to Rei, as she straddled him in the sea of LCL, he wasn't actualy talking to Rei. Rei explaining things to him could have just been a visual representation of the clarity that comes from being one with everyone in the world.

Rei also does not have the same bond ("Adam's flesh") to the Evas that Kaworu does, so how can she be a "special case"?


Call Rei what you like. (Angel, Human, Lillim, Clone...ect.) But the fact of the matter is that she is not entirely normal. She has very human qualities, and she has some not so human qualities. Whether or not this is conclusive evidence that she is an Angel is IMO up to personal interperitation.


Blaming something in a series as well-constructed as NGE on a "plot hole" is not preferable when a perfectly feasible explanation can be found. Kyoko's body remained intact, I think, because Anno was giving us a subtle clue about what was really going on.


Just out of curisoty, what is the perfectly pheasable explination?

Also, If I understnad correctly you believe that Lilliths soul is in Unit 00? If this is truly what you believe, how do you propose that it got there?

Now for Phaze (which by the way sounds a lot like an american gladiator name)

True, she does not have the soul of Adam, but she does have the soul of the angel called "Lilith," it's irrelevant that Adam gave birth to the angels, and Lilith gave birth to humanity (humanity is the "18th angel" anyway).


Personally I agree, I think that this is enough to calssify her as an Angel, (At least as much as Kaworu, Lillith, and Adam)

Upon re-reading this, it occuros to me taht it seems a little like Reichu blasting. Its not, I respect, and agree with a lot of what you say Reichu, but I disagree with quite a bit too. :D
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Postby Karma Burn » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:07 pm

No offense to you guys/gals or anything. But to me this whole "soul imprint" topic seems to me like it's splitting hairs. I don't see enough circumstancial evidence in the series to be creating these theories. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough. I don't think there is a plot hole that explains the eva's souls. They just didn't explain it. I don't think they left enough information in the series that could explain it.

That's just my two cents on the whole topic. I know creating crazy theories is part of the fun of being an eva fan.
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:47 pm

Reichu wrote:
Ritsuko wasn't even certain that Rei's "mental instability" was the cause. In fact, there seemed to be more to it that Ritsuko did not say:

Quote:

Misato: Well, what was the cause of the accident in the last
experiment?

Ritsuko: We still don't know. However, the primary cause is
believed to be a mental instability in the pilot.

Misato: Mental instability? In Rei?

Ritsuko: Yes. She was much more disturbed than we could expect.

Misato: What happened?

Ritsuko: I don't know, but she might have...

Misato: Do you have an idea?

Ritsuko: No, that can't be...


Phase wrote:

Yes, Ritsuko was apparently leaning on another idea. Could it be the idea that Rei is using her own soul?


I've always felt that it had suddenly occured to Ritsuko that Rei might have encounted a chibi version of herself. Naturally the sight of a little naked Rei swimming towards her would freak her out even more than it did Shinji.
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Postby thewayneiac » Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:35 pm

I found something HERE that could negate the need for both Reichu's, "soul imprinting", theory, and Phaze's, "soul projection", theory. It seems that one of the Cabalistic beliefs is the seperability of the soul. One part stays in the body until resurection day, (keeping the body from disolving?); another part gets punished before entering paradise; another goes straight to paradise, ect. This seems to clear things up a lot. Kyoko didn't disolve because she kept one or more pieces of her soul. Different pieces of Lilith's soul are in Unit-00 than in Rei. (Part of it could even still be in Lilith to say, "Welcome Home".
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Postby Phaze » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:10 pm

thewayneiac wrote:I found something HERE that could negate the need for both Reichu's, "soul imprinting", theory, and Phaze's, "soul projection", theory. It seems that one of the Cabalistic beliefs is the seperability of the soul. One part stays in the body until resurection day, (keeping the body from disolving?); another part gets punished before entering paradise; another goes straight to paradise, ect. This seems to clear things up a lot. Kyoko didn't disolve because she kept one or more pieces of her soul. Different pieces of Lilith's soul are in Unit-00 than in Rei. (Part of it could even still be in Lilith to say, "Welcome Home".

That is an interesting find, and is neither any more or any less likely than the 2 theories already posed.

I just wanted to clear up one thing now that I have my thoughts straight. Having no soul does not necessarily translate to having no physical form. Here are four examples:
One would be the Mass-Produced Eva's, who never, during the whole battle, used an AT field, the symbol they created was using unit-01's AT field.
The Rei clones, who obviously have no soul, still manage to maintain their shape. Their insane laughing also suggests that loosing your soul could result in insanity.
Lilith and Adam are both soulless as well, but may be excused because they are angels.
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Postby thewayneiac » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:02 pm

Phaze wrote:That is an interesting find, and is neither any more or any less likely than the 2 theories already posed.

I just wanted to clear up one thing now that I have my thoughts straight. Having no soul does not necessarily translate to having no physical form. Here are four examples:
One would be the Mass-Produced Eva's, who never, during the whole battle, used an AT field, the symbol they created was using unit-01's AT field.

Actually, EOE specifically says they have their own A.T. fields:

Shigeru:
The Eva series' AT Fields are resonating!


The Rei clones, who obviously have no soul, still manage to maintain their shape. Their insane laughing also suggests that loosing your soul could result in insanity.


There's probably supposed to be some property of the tank holding them together. The soulless clones could very well be insane. There is an ancient belief that insane people have lost their souls, and that is certainly supposed to be what happened to Kyoko.
Lilith and Adam are both soulless as well, but may be excused because they are angels.


Lilith's soul can be in more than one place at a time, (multiple Reis collecting souls simultaneously), so Lilith's soul could still be in Lilith, along with Rei and Unit-00, even without the soul severability theory. Presumably the same would apply to Adam's soul.
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