Fixing the Wiki: Suggestions Thread

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Postby NemZ » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:42 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:@NemZ: Could you give us some idea of which regular pages have material that should be moved to analysis pages and why?


I'm just talking about policy for now... I have no idea what, if anything, actually would need to be changed and it seems pointless to even check until people come to an agreement. To be perfectly honest I almost never look at the wiki so I can't just spout off answers off the top of my head.

EDIT:
Unit00
Under what I've suggested it shouldn't say anything for certain under the Soul section, not even an 'it's probably...", and instead point at individual pages for theories on the subject, each offering arguments for and against that interpretation.

Yui
Her pages should note that the scene that spells out that it wasn't an accident and Fuyutsuki knew this is only in the DC version.

Where does the idea that her life was in danger come from? I don't read that implication at all in the scene.

Honestly the yui's agenda article is a giant mess, but at least it's properly labeled as theory.

Kaworu
That he was created by the Adam contact experiment is pure speculation and should be removed.

It should be mentioned that the Seele meeting scene only happens in DC, and any speculation on what the hell is happening there should be in a theory page.

Speculation on whether Kaworu was intentionally making 02 fight poorly has no place on that page.
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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:37 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:EDIT:
Unit00
Under what I've suggested it shouldn't say anything for certain under the Soul section, not even an 'it's probably...", and instead point at individual pages for theories on the subject, each offering arguments for and against that interpretation.

Yui
Her pages should note that the scene that spells out that it wasn't an accident and Fuyutsuki knew this is only in the DC version.

Where does the idea that her life was in danger come from? I don't read that implication at all in the scene.

Honestly the yui's agenda article is a giant mess, but at least it's properly labeled as theory.

Kaworu
That he was created by the Adam contact experiment is pure speculation and should be removed.

It should be mentioned that the Seele meeting scene only happens in DC, and any speculation on what the hell is happening there should be in a theory page.

Speculation on whether Kaworu was intentionally making 02 fight poorly has no place on that page.


Of course, part of the problem here is that you hold the minority view that the D.C. material is a retcon rather than an elaboration upon things that were already present. I doubt if the notion that O.A./Eotv and D.C./EoE are separate continuities will ever be embraced here, but it would be an excellent choice for an alternative explanation article and I would fully support your writing one and linking to it anywhere we treat the D.C. as being canon to the entire work. (Though I'm not very confident we can get Reichu to agree to our notion of separate articles for different theories on the same subject; she's very much against it.)

The Unit-00 stuff is dependent upon where one draws the line. How much evidence do you need before a theory becomes fact? In my view the Rei 1 evidence is more than sufficient to list Rei 1 as the soul before linking to the theory page that presents the proof. (The proof does of course belong on a theory page.) Or let's try another example: under your standards, would the "anonymous assassin" explanation for Kaji's death have to be presented on a "Theory and Analysis: Who Shot Kaji" page separate from the main Kaji page because it came from an Anno interview rather than the text of the show? i.e., is everything dependent upon secondary sources to be segregated onto separate pages? (I know your enthusiasm for the notion that once a work is published the author should have no say in its interpretation.)

That Yui's life is in danger is implied in this exchange:

Fuyutsuki: There won't be a repeat performance of the stunt I pulled earlier. oh, and I've also been given a warning - It seems that it would be no trouble at all for them to erase me.

Yui: And those who survived as well. It's easy to exterminate people.

Fuyutsuki: Still, that's no reason for you to become a test subject.


Whose survivors is she talking about other than those who survive Fuyutsuki's death? A general statement that Seele could bump off any Second Impact survivor makes no sense in context. She must be speaking of the people surrounding Fuyutsuki. He then makes it plain that she meant herself by bringing up the contact experiment.

I agree the stuff about the Lake Conversation should moved, (and the Kibou/trick stuff probably thrown out as well), but I'm not so sure about the Kaworu's nature stuff. It's explicitly stated in the show that he is an Angel, and the "born from the contact experiment" business goes right to his nature as an Angel. It probably belongs on his main page, not the Kaworu's Agenda theory page.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:03 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Of course, part of the problem here is that you hold the minority view that the D.C. material is a retcon rather than an elaboration upon things that were already present.


Even if it is just an elaboration that's still a retcon because those additional materials change the reading. Besides, all I said was that you should point out those changes, which is interesting and worthwhile information to share regardless of how one feels about retcons or whatever.

Further, my views being in the minority doesn't make them less worthy of mention. That's the entire point of this discussion, that the wiki doesn't get much support because people view it as elitist and dogmatic. For the sake of argument I've already said I'm fine with a specific 'official stance' as long as others are mentioned when they conflict.

it would be an excellent choice for an alternative explanation article and I would fully support your writing one


I'd consider it, but my former experiences with theory articles makes me less than eager to waste my time. Basically I think it should be a standing rule that nobody mess with theory articles unless they actually support that theory, except for creating or adding to a 'rebuttal' section at the end.

Also, I'm sure Reichu is perfectly capable of speaking for herself.

The Unit-00 stuff is dependent upon where one draws the line. How much evidence do you need before a theory becomes fact? In my view the Rei 1 evidence is more than sufficient to list Rei 1 as the soul before linking to the theory page that presents the proof.


I agree with you on this one, but I still think alternative theories should be given their own space to be worked out and not all are as flimsy as the Naoko idea (which should STILL be given it's own space because it's such a common misconception and thus worthy of mention AND being torn to shreds in the rebuttle section), such as Bagheera's recent idea that each Rei and unit 00 have unique shards of Lilith, none of them recycled into others until the very end. I don't by it, but it's interesting.

under your standards, would the "anonymous assassin" explanation for Kaji's death have to be presented on a "Theory and Analysis: Who Shot Kaji" page separate from the main Kaji page because it came from an Anno interview rather than the text of the show? i.e., is everything dependent upon secondary sources to be segregated onto separate pages?


Nope, that would be accepted canon by the wiki's stated tier system, though since it isn't info direct from the latest version of the show, tier1, the source should be noted and any other ideas sent off to a disproved theories page/section/whatever with a link. I'm pretty sure I already said this earlier.

I agree the stuff about the Lake Conversation should moved, (and the Kibou/trick stuff probably thrown out as well), but I'm not so sure about the Kaworu's nature stuff. It's explicitly stated in the show that he is an Angel, and the "born from the contact experiment" business goes right to his nature as an Angel. It probably belongs on his main page, not the Kaworu's Agenda theory page.


That he has Adam's soul and a seemingly human body (as human as Rei is, which is somewhat dubious) is certainly true, but when, where and how he came to inhabit this form is conjecture. Was he actually born on 2I? Did they create a cloned body and slap Adam's soul into it or did Adam claim the body on it's own? Did Seele come to him or was it the other way around? Heck, for all we know Kaworu's body was a recently dead or comatose human that he's just joyriding around in.

Yui side discussion  SPOILER: Show
Whose survivors is she talking about other than those who survive Fuyutsuki's death? A general statement that Seele could bump off any Second Impact survivor makes no sense in context. She must be speaking of the people surrounding Fuyutsuki. He then makes it plain that she meant herself by bringing up the contact experiment.


I disagree. My reading of that scene is that she is saying in the wake of 2I that Seele's power has grown to the point that they can snuff out anyone, anywhere. It's not a specific threat that motivates her, but rather the systemic threat in general... she doesn't want Shinji to spend his whole life as just a cog in their machine. Fuyu is saying that opposing them doesn't have to mean putting herself directly in harm's way, but if not her then who will? Certainly not Gendo, at least not as he was... he was becoming very much a 'company man'.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:50 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:That he has Adam's soul and a seemingly human body (as human as Rei is, which is somewhat dubious) is certainly true, but when, where and how he came to inhabit this form is conjecture. Was he actually born on 2I? Did they create a cloned body and slap Adam's soul into it or did Adam claim the body on it's own? Did Seele come to him or was it the other way around? Heck, for all we know Kaworu's body was a recently dead or comatose human that he's just joyriding around in.


This gets back to the supplemental material issue, the RCB yes Reichu I know you hate the name, please make a better acronym for the correct name posits that Kawrou was apparently found as an embryo. I've always been like uh how are you going to deal with this stuff? Because there are plenty of people that don't like it...
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:29 pm

Oh, boy. I'm gone for a while due to lousy internet, and all this crops up.

I guess I've gotten so used to the way our wiki is (I was working a lot on it during the V days) that I really never noticed the need to change it. That, and real life has taken precedence over teh internetz.

SSD wrote:As somebody who does minor edits every so often (all I have time for lately), our wiki's somewhat intimidating trying to organize--but lack of contributors doesn't help matters. Some pages need so much work it's impossible to figure out where to begin (e.g. some pages are nonexistent), other pages just need re-ironing out every so often.


Hmm. We have a problem with 3.0 pages right now. I'm not exactly in the loop with a lot of 3.0 information and I have no idea how the forum's spoiler policies translate into the wiki.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:46 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:This gets back to the supplemental material issue, the RCB yes Reichu I know you hate the name, please make a better acronym for the correct name posits that Kawrou was apparently found as an embryo. I've always been like uh how are you going to deal with this stuff? Because there are plenty of people that don't like it...


Where in the "EoE theaterical book" is this mentioned? If that's the case this is, again, the sort of info source that should definitely be pointed out in the article.

EDIT: Did you mean this?
It is likely that he was an Angel which had been captured by SEELE in the embryo stage.

Because I'm dubious of any extraneous info to begin with, but that seems to be written like someone is just making a guess, not offering insider info.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:58 pm

That would be the line that got the speculation train rolling. The wording on Kaworu's article could be reworked to say it is believed he was found as an embryo and I agree with you when it's external info a source should be given.
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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:04 pm

NemZ wrote:That he has Adam's soul and a seemingly human body (as human as Rei is, which is somewhat dubious) is certainly true, but when, where and how he came to inhabit this form is conjecture. Was he actually born on 2I? Did they create a cloned body and slap Adam's soul into it or did Adam claim the body on it's own? Did Seele come to him or was it the other way around? Heck, for all we know Kaworu's body was a recently dead or comatose human that he's just joyriding around in.


According to the C.I.:

There hasn't been a soul within Adam. At the time of Second Impact, its body was torn apart, and its soul flew off somewhere as a result. Adam's soul was later recovered by Seele and incarnated.


We are told in the series that Kaworu was born on the day of Second Impact, but apparently he didn't receive his soul until Seele recovered it at some unknown date in the future. Perhaps he was like a soulless Rei clone until then. Because of his resemblance to Rei in skin tone, I doubt if he was just a possessed normal human. He also tells Rei that they are the same.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:18 pm

Clearly what needs to be done is the old threads where this stuff came up need to be dug up so everyone can see the reasoning that led to the entries and if they can stand up to the scrutiny they're fine. But list sources.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:54 am

Okay, we keep getting sidetracked and I accept that's partly my fault. The point is not individual entries, it's overall policy. The entries' contents can be discussed after we get that straightened out.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:53 pm

Personally, I don't see a need for hyper-segregation of data, to the extent of "a different page for every idea". As a general rule, the number of pages devoted to a topic should be determined by the amount of content, plain and simple. Otherwise, subheadings should work just fine.

I'm not sure how much can be accomplished by talk alone. I think actually hitting some of these entries and testing new approaches to organizing the data might be a way to go. I'd like to actually work on the Wiki, with the people who have been bringing up the complaints. I suggested this to Bagheera, but he needs assurances, especially where thewayneiac is concerned.

I understand the compulsion to "control" what's on the Wiki. Being a fan of something can really provoke the neuroses. "This idea-- What if poor unsuspecting newbies come by and see it? What will they think? I can't allow this!!" But as I've mentioned, favoritism on the part of sysops toward their own pet theories -- however justified they might find them -- is driving people away and making us look like elitist pricks. We have to loosen up, respect the diversity of ideas out there even if we don't agree with them, and do what it takes to make the wiki what it was always supposed to be: a community project and resource.

So an atmosphere of better trust must be fostered. Contributors MUST be able to feel like they can write about things on the wiki without fear that everything they considered important will always be crushed underfoot, without warning, or without any apparent purpose beyond somebody's need to impose an "orthodoxy" on everything. Work with people in good faith. Give their contributions the benefit of the doubt and don't just squelch their work without thinking, especially if it's a speculation article we're dealing with. Work out problems without edit/revert wars.

Now, determining a system of "standards" will be difficult, along with figuring out precisely which ideas "deserve" representation. As difficult as it is, we need to put egos and investments aside, and think about what would be most helpful to the fans that are using the wiki to learn about Eva and form their own ideas about it.

In general, I think stuff that hasn't been discussed at all in the forum should stay out of the Wiki. In other words, don't use it to dump stuff you've only just come up with. Test it on the forum first. It's a little like peer review, and allows flaws in the idea to be exposed, possibilities expanded, and so forth. Always a good thing to do.

(There's always the chance there won't be any response at all, in which case... uh... I dunno. Things can get tricky here. I attempted to get "peer review" on some content I had typed up fresh for a Wiki entry -- yes, working backwards from what I'm advocating here; learn as ya go along! -- on the chance that it was totally bogus and inappropriate, and got pretty much no response. So I added it anyway because I thought it would be useful. Lo and behold, complaints showed up... much later.)

On the other hand, something that regularly comes up in discussion is clearly worthy of mention. As AEF noted, referencing the actual threads where the ideas appeared might help curb a lot of Wiki controversy. It's an additional bit of trouble, naturally, but it's definitely worth doing. When it comes to the speculation aspects, those conversations are our "sources", and we should cite them.

Another thing I want to mention: Apparently, our closed registration system is another thing that people consider a big put-off, and contributes to the sense of elitism and inclusiveness. (Source: feedback I got from folks on /a/.) Some people want to be able to work on a wiki without having to register on a forum (not everybody likes forums) and "beg" (as they put it) to be given a wiki account. I know there was a reason we set it up this way, but apparently it just fosters the notion that we're TRYING to make things a hassle (read: be elitist and inclusive) and force anyone who wants to edit wiki articles to "prove themselves" or something. Perhaps we need to seriously reconsider, and make registry open after all.

I'll be needing to go Away From Forum in a couple of weeks, but maybe we can get some of the above-mentioned stuff rolling before then.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:02 pm

That last complaint makes me laugh a bit. Then again I'm hopelessly lazy and I've never joined the wiki even though I said I would back in 07 despite having a forum account so I guess I can't really say anything. Honestly kinda surprised you never held that over my head.
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:48 pm

Reichu wrote:In general, I think stuff that hasn't been discussed at all in the forum should stay out of the Wiki. In other words, don't use it to dump stuff you've only just come up with. Test it on the forum first. It's a little like peer review, and allows flaws in the idea to be exposed, possibilities expanded, and so forth. Always a good thing to do.


Another thing I want to mention: Apparently, our closed registration system is another thing that people consider a big put-off, and contributes to the sense of elitism and inclusiveness. (Source: feedback I got from folks on /a/.) Some people want to be able to work on a wiki without having to register on a forum (not everybody likes forums) and "beg" (as they put it) to be given a wiki account. I know there was a reason we set it up this way, but apparently it just fosters the notion that we're TRYING to make things a hassle (read: be elitist and inclusive) and force anyone who wants to edit wiki articles to "prove themselves" or something. Perhaps we need to seriously reconsider, and make registry open after all.


Aren't those sentiments contradictory? The reason we require people to be part of the EvaGeeks community is well, because it's the EvaGeeks Wiki. It's supposed to reflect the views of the EvaGeeks community. If we open it to the general public, it will become the whole world's Eva Wiki. (And it will become a pain in the ass to police. Does anyone here really want the full time job of checking hundreds or perhaps thousands of edits for crackpot theories or sabotage?)
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:32 pm

I suppose the real question here is what does Reichu want the wiki to be?
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:21 am

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:Aren't those sentiments contradictory? The reason we require people to be part of the EvaGeeks community is well, because it's the EvaGeeks Wiki. It's supposed to reflect the views of the EvaGeeks community. If we open it to the general public, it will become the whole world's Eva Wiki. (And it will become a pain in the ass to police. Does anyone here really want the full time job of checking hundreds or perhaps thousands of edits for crackpot theories or sabotage?)


I actually agree on this point. It should reflect the community... but by that I mean the whole community, not just the old guard or the majority.

Otherwise everything Reichu said was reasonable. I suppose it would be an unnecessary hassle to create a billion new pages, though strong efforts must be made to keep the language of these common pages from unfairly biasing towards or against different theories.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:40 am

But if Reichu doesn't want it to just be a wiki for Evegeeks but for the entire English speaking fandom then what? What the wiki is supposed to be determines what fixes are required. If the wiki is just for Evageeks then the sign up thing is largely irrelevant but it it's meant to extend beyond this forum it's a potentially serious issue.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby thewayneiac » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:55 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:But if Reichu doesn't want it to just be a wiki for Evegeeks but for the entire English speaking fandom then what? What the wiki is supposed to be determines what fixes are required. If the wiki is just for Evageeks then the sign up thing is largely irrelevant but it it's meant to extend beyond this forum it's a potentially serious issue.


If the Wiki becomes open to the entire fanbase, won't it become indistinguishable from other Eva Wikis? What's the point in that?
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:32 pm

How is it special now, and what makes that specialness a good thing?
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Reichu
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:01 pm

I was thinking mostly that "wanting to contribute to the Wiki" does not necessarily equal "wanting to contribute nothing but theory and speculation stuff". On the wiki, there is considerable room for improvement in all areas, not just those pertaining to T&A. Some folks might want to contribute their knowledge -- on anything ranging from production, to publications, to pachinko, and everything else -- without dealing with the hassles of a closed registration system.

In order to curb our own fears, we have to create clear guidelines on contributing theory and analysis, and simply point to that if wiki contributions don't adhere. Yes, an open reg system might mean more work on our part -- but, really, it's a small price to pay for what we could potentially get in return.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:16 pm

Why do I feel the urge to reply to that with thanks for your input Shinji? Anyways it sounds like you're leaning towards a more open fandom approach. I hope you're up for all the work that entails.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!


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