Fixing the Wiki: Suggestions Thread

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:15 am

I'm nearly 100% certain the second one is an inside joke, same reason I have the tag minion now. Perhaps not the best joke...
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:09 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:The problem with that, which Reichu already alluded to, is you'd end up with a very boring wiki to read.


Why? All the same info is still available, it's just clearly marked what is fact and what is guesswork. Having multiple interpretations rather than just one should actually make it more interesting.

Besides that though, it's a wiki; It's meant to be informative, not exciting. The excitement belongs in the forum.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:20 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Why?

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/584563/Fixing-the-Wiki-Suggestions-Thread/#584563

(Since you're not responding to me, I'm not going to assume you read my post...)
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:38 am

One thing that mediawiki doesn't do (by default, at least) is have any obvious hierarchical organization. The wiki system we use at work does, and that allows obvious sub-pages to each topic without having to code the links in from the top-level page to its subordinates. I guess in mediawiki we'd need some sort of template -- and would that even auto-populate?

If such a thing is possible, it makes is simple to establish of page clusters -- the bare facts on any topic (what we are explicitly shown/told, plus any light shed by supplemental material) at top level; then one or more interpretations/theory pages. Even if it has to be hand cranked, such an organizational structure would go a way to reduce the scope for religious argument revision wars.
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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:49 am

Yes Reichu, I read your post. No, I don't see why that's a problem. Nothing is being lost, just reorganized.

Also sub-pages should probably contain a section for clear, concisely written criticism. Nothing there should be about selling a different version (that's a case to be made on it's own page), but rather reserved only for saying why some feel that a particular idea is faulty.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:37 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Yes Reichu, I read your post. No, I don't see why that's a problem. Nothing is being lost, just reorganized.

Also sub-pages should probably contain a section for clear, concisely written criticism. Nothing there should be about selling a different version (that's a case to be made on it's own page), but rather reserved only for saying why some feel that a particular idea is faulty.

Would you have, say, a page about Kyoko's soul, and the sub-pages are each about a different interpretation as to whether it's Kyoko's whole soul in Eva-02?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:08 am

NemZ, how seriously are you going to take a wiki whose main pages have like 2 paragraphs? I wouldn't take it seriously at all.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby thewayneiac » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:52 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:This is what I was trying to get at earlier. Entries should be purely factual but have links to interpretation pages (clearly labeled as such) where different takes can be given their own say, none shown any special favor as if it were the one true way.


If by that you mean that all theories are created equal, I can't agree. Some are supported by the evidence presented in the series, and others are not. If you take that to its logical conclusion, we would have to treat the "Adam and Eve" theory as being equally valid as the "anyone come come back" theory and the "Naoko" theory as being equal to the "Rei 1" theory. So I hope you actually mean there should be no preference between theories for which one can build a credible argument based upon the evidence presented to us in the show and the supplemental materials. (Yes, I know. You don't like supplemental materials.)
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Postby A.T. Fish » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:08 pm

thewayneiac wrote:If you take that to its logical conclusion, we would have to treat the "Adam and Eve" theory as being equally valid as the "anyone come come back" theory and the "Naoko" theory as being equal to the "Rei 1" theory.


Anyone can come back is a fact, "Adam and Eve" is a theory, in the case of Eva-00's soul both Naoko and Rei I are theoretical, it's just that one has strong evidence supporting it and the other doesn't. I agree with the idea of the skeptically inclined Wiki, clearly dividing the facts from the theories.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:00 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:One thing that mediawiki doesn't do (by default, at least) is have any obvious hierarchical organization. The wiki system we use at work does, and that allows obvious sub-pages to each topic without having to code the links in from the top-level page to its subordinates. I guess in mediawiki we'd need some sort of template -- and would that even auto-populate?

If such a thing is possible, it makes is simple to establish of page clusters -- the bare facts on any topic (what we are explicitly shown/told, plus any light shed by supplemental material) at top level; then one or more interpretations/theory pages. Even if it has to be hand cranked, such an organizational structure would go a way to reduce the scope for religious argument revision wars.

It's probably possible with some kind of template, but how much stuff would be in the per episode interpretation/theory pages? Some episodes I'd think you'd barely have much more than a paragraph. Most interpretation and theories cover instances that usually span several episodes.
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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:24 pm

Monk Ed wrote:Would you have, say, a page about Kyoko's soul, and the sub-pages are each about a different interpretation as to whether it's Kyoko's whole soul in Eva-02?


More likely there would be a page for unit-02 and a page for Kyoko (or just sections on each in more general minor charecter and evangelion pages, whatever), with both having links to any theories about the resident soul and vice-versa.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:NemZ, how seriously are you going to take a wiki whose main pages have like 2 paragraphs? I wouldn't take it seriously at all.


I think you're vastly underestimating how much is known, especially when I can only assume, as thewayniac is concerned, that the wiki will continue to treat things like CI as canonical by default. note to self... the 'what is canon' page needs a subpage for DC/EoE = retcon argument. In cases where there really isn't much to go on that entry should be reduced to just a section on a more general page rather than standing on it's own.

thewayniac wrote:If by that you mean that all theories are created equal, I can't agree. Some are supported by the evidence presented in the series, and others are not.


That would be part of why I suggested rebuttal sections, but yes, each should be worthy of it's own page including any evidence for and/or against, or lack thereof. Entries should not be written as pitted against each other but rather evaluated on their own merits and flaws. If it isn't confirmed fact it should be left to individual readers to decide what they want to believe.

btw, "can return" is not the same as "will return".
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:00 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I think you're vastly underestimating how much is known, especially when I can only assume, as thewayniac is concerned, that the wiki will continue to treat things like CI as canonical by default. note to self... the 'what is canon' page needs a subpage for DC/EoE = retcon argument. In cases where there really isn't much to go on that entry should be reduced to just a section on a more general page rather than standing on it's own.


You've summed up quite nicely why I don't think that stance will work. As Reichu put it, you'd be surprised how much people can argue over things that are "blatantly given"! If anything you're only creating a system where people will bicker over what goes on what page, I really don't see how it solves anything.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:39 pm

At least it refocuses the discussion on the bedrock facts that we have to agree on before anything can move forward. If it can't be agreed on (barring outright sophistry) then it doesn't belong in a primary entry.
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"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:59 pm

Again there are going to be main entries that are horribly barren because large amounts of the info on them comes from stuff not everyone agrees upon. How do you explain who created the Angels without the CI? Or the spear(s)? This is a clusterfuck waiting to happen.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:58 pm

AE: You need to read my earlier response to you more carefully.
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"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:42 pm

I read it and I'm not operating under such an assumption. You're not the first person you raise grievances about supplemental material and you certainly wont be the last. Whether you'd be willing to let it go doesn't mean others would. People have questioned the validity of the FAR, I do believe Bob objected to Seele being presented as the Illuminati etc.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:39 pm

That's a fair point. For the sake of argument I think the wiki needs a single accepted stance on such issues, but it would certainly be a good thing if official policy was to explicitly call out when something is based upon anything other than the most recent version of tier1 sources or is a point of contention in tier1 sources, along with a link to the relevant secondary page summarizing that source or listing all version differences.

It would also be a good thing for the "What is canon?" page to give a more through explanation of it's default stance, acknowledgement differences of opinion exist, to acknowledge unapologetically that there is a retcon in affec, and to offer links to pages dedicated to alternative views such as my OA originalist take or SSD's thoughts on concurrency.
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"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:27 pm

Hey man, you're not saying anything I didn't already consider back when OMF first came up with the wiki idea. The thing I keep coming back to is no matter what you do you simply can't please everyone. While an officially declared stance would be beneficial (I hesitate to use the word "good") to day to day operation there are always going to be people that feel their beliefs aren't respected and cry elitism. It's a song and dance I've seen repeated so many times now it's not funny.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby thewayneiac » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:02 pm

I share some of Anonymous_Evafan's concerns. Couldn't this result not only in the main pages seeming barren, but also in the analysis pages seeming overloaded?

@NemZ: Could you give us some idea of which regular pages have material that should be moved to analysis pages and why? It seems to me that most of the most controversial material is already on analysis pages. Unit-00 and Unit-00's soul are separate pages, as are Yui Ikari and Yui's Agenda, Kaworu and Kaworu's agenda, ect. Is there info on the Unit-00, Yui, and Kaworu pages that should be moved to the Unit-00's Soul, Yui's Agenda, and Kaworu's Agenda pages? Or is lack of space for alternative theories a bigger problem than analysis leaking onto the regular pages?
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:15 am

Skimmed the thread so apologies if I'm rehashing stuff that was mentioned already:

I like Tines' thoughts of a hierarchical organization. Either subsections within each page* or linking to Theory & Analysis, etc pages?

As somebody who does minor edits every so often (all I have time for lately), our wiki's somewhat intimidating trying to organize--but lack of contributors doesn't help matters. Some pages need so much work it's impossible to figure out where to begin (e.g. some pages are nonexistent), other pages just need re-ironing out every so often.

*Perhaps "Commonly accepted theories" for the first section of each page, "alternate theories" for the next, etc, etc. Example: T & A Eva-00's Soul page sort of has this layout already (last I looked, at least), with Rei-1 being the commonly accepted theory, then it discusses Naoko and other theories.

The trick, of course, is how to properly implement all this while factoring in tiers of canonicity (at least to an extent, IMO, so the wiki doesn't end up messier than it already is) alongside a general consensus. I feel we should give facts of the show (or what the show points towards) without scaring off newcomers or oldtimers. Gotta be a happy medium somewhere.
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