Japan and english

[A.T. Fish]

I'm not even sure if this should be here.

Anyway, it's no surprise to anyone that english is widely used in anime, but I started noticing that some words come off as very slangish, such as "lucky" and "chance". I wonder, how much of it is anime trope and how much is an actual reflection of Japanese speech behavior? Does anybody know?

[Xard]

It reflects it a lot. They're instances of "Japanese english" (they have own term for it, ie. english used by Japanese occasionally in ways natives don't).

Good example of this would be word "bicchi" which is simply how Japanese pronounces "bitch" but the meaning is actually that of slut and not bitch.


(this is something I learned after I wondered about the subtle difference between west and 2ch: Japanese fans called the girls they liked bitches instead of sluts, I thought. Then there was the tweeest)

[riffraff11235]

From what I've heard, Japanese has adopted a lot of words from Western languages. Here's what Wikipedia had to say on it:

Incorporating vocabulary from European languages began with borrowings from Portuguese in the 16th century, followed by words from Dutch during Japan's long isolation of the Edo period. With the Meiji Restoration and the reopening of Japan in the 19th century, borrowing occurred from German, French, and English. Today most borrowings are from English.

In the past few decades, wasei-eigo ("made-in-Japan English") has become a prominent phenomenon. Words such as wanpatān ワンパターン (< one + pattern, "to be in a rut", "to have a one-track mind") and sukinshippu スキンシップ (< skin + -ship, "physical contact"), although coined by compounding English roots, are nonsensical in most non-Japanese contexts; exceptions exist in nearby languages such as Korean however, which often use words such as skinship and rimokon (remote control) in the same way as in Japanese.

[CJD]

I'm pretty sure it was Hiroyuki of 2ch and NicoNico who I heard say the Japanese youth considers English "cool."

[InstrumentalityOne]

It's kinda like when we use words like faux, rucksack, vis a vis, lingerie, etc., etc.

[A.T. Fish]

I see, thanks for clarifying this, all of you.

[Oz]

It's kinda like when we use words like faux, rucksack, vis a vis, lingerie, etc., etc.

It doesn't have to be even that exotic: there are even more common words that English has borrowed from Old Norse, Latin and Norman French ages ago and are used as ordinary English words these days. Loanwords, loanwords everywhere. Based on my own experience/intuition, some of those loanwords have reached similar status in Japan.

[Ornette]

It's probably more like what Xard describes, specifically in your examples. I think those words, however colloquial they may be, seem to only be written in katakana or hiragana but are readily used in spoken language (though I have no idea if they are regularly used in written language).

There's stuff like "バッグ" (literally, "bag") that are used for bags (paper bags, purses, shopping bags, garbage bags), when there are existing words for all kinds of bags, (like 鞄 or 袋) that aren't pronounced "bagu".

[Tribblepoo]

What I find more interesting is when they try to use English words with the same meaning and in the correct context and fail completely and hilariously at it.

A similar phenomenon that I just find funny is when the same word exists in two languages, but have wildly different meanings.

[InstrumentalityOne]

What I find more interesting is when they try to use English words with the same meaning and in the correct context and fail completely and hilariously at it.

Well, one could argue that it is just their version of the word, so there is no real room for failure, I think.

[Tribblepoo]

Well, one could argue that it is just their version of the word, so there is no real room for failure, I think.

Well, mistaking "porking" for "parking" and using the former in the context of the latter makes for some hilarious traffic signs.

[arkiel]

It's just evidence of the English-speaking world's cultural dominance.

Check out nadsat from A Clockwork Orange, I think a scientist-type in that narrative actually referred to it as a form of Communist propaganda.

The use described here isn't really propaganda in the deliberate sense, but when everyone wants to talk like Tony Stark, its about the same as if there was insidious government motive.

I've read at least one academic paper on the subject, but that was long ago. Anyone really interested should find a library with an active JSTOR account and do a search on predatory lexicons, or something.

[pat457]

It reflects it a lot. They're instances of "Japanese english" (they have own term for it, ie. english used by Japanese occasionally in ways natives don't).

Wasei-eigo ('Japanese-made English')?

I'm not even sure if this should be here.

Anyway, it's no surprise to anyone that english is widely used in anime, but I started noticing that some words come off as very slangish, such as "lucky" and "chance". I wonder, how much of it is anime trope and how much is an actual reflection of Japanese speech behavior? Does anybody know?

No one speaks in 'pure' Japanese nowadays. ;)

[Xard]

Wasei-eigo ('Japanese-made English')?

That was it, yeah.


Another good example of wasei-eigo word would be "skinshippu"


(edit: of course in my first post "girls they like" should be "girls they dislike", derp)

[pat457]

That was it, yeah.


Another good example of wasei-eigo word would be "skinshippu"


(edit: of course in my first post "girls they like" should be "girls they dislike", derp)

Another is using renji (レンジ, in full denshi renji 電子レンジ) for 'microwave'. Tsuinteeru (ツインテール) also counts.

I'm not even sure if this should be here.

Anyway, it's no surprise to anyone that english is widely used in anime, but I started noticing that some words come off as very slangish, such as "lucky" and "chance". I wonder, how much of it is anime trope and how much is an actual reflection of Japanese speech behavior? Does anybody know?

No one speaks in 'pure' Japanese nowadays. ;)

[Xard]

Tsuinteeru (ツインテール) also counts.

Isn't ツインテール just "twintails"? In that case use of word is identical between "normal" English and wasei-eigo and it would just be a loan word, I think.

[Oz]

I hadn't thought about it before, but twintails could be an expression that some English speakers/writers have in turn borrowed from the Japanese word that was originally a calque from English. Fascinating. By googling, I couldn't find dictionary entries or definitions for it and found only "pigtails" instead of it so it's most likely a word not accepted by dictionaries yet.

[pat457]

Isn't ツインテール just "twintails"? In that case use of word is identical between "normal" English and wasei-eigo and it would just be a loan word, I think.

Tsuin-teeru is usually identified as wasei-eigo; in fact, that term was originally otaku slang. I've actually heard of the term not being familiar to some non-otakus even today: some of the more 'standard' terms for the hairstyle are o-sage (おさげ), futatsu-yui (二つ結い) or futatsu-musubi (二つ結び), or 'two side-up' (ツーサイドアップ tsuu saidoappu, another wasei-eigo). The exact origins of the term is unclear: some attribute it to the name of a monster in the The Return of Ultraman or as a corruption of 'two-tails' (tsuuteeru). We also don't know when it came to be used, although the Japanese Wikipedia reports usage starting from the early 1990s.

P.S. The English term is apparently 'bunches', 'angel wings' or 'pigtails'.

[Xard]

oh wow

well now you guys are seeing the effects of living immersed in otaku culture for years. I'd completely forgotten pigtails, not twintails, is the "natural" English word for the Quess handlebars.


yup, twintails is example of wasei-eigo then

[Sailor Star Dust]

We also don't know when it came to be used, although the Japanese Wikipedia reports usage starting from the early 1990s.

P.S. The English term is apparently 'bunches', 'angel wings' or 'pigtails'.

Her, maybe? Usagi was apparently one of the first twin-tailed characters and the manga/anime started in 1992.