Bar or Repeat sign?

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Bar or Repeat sign?

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Postby Jay » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:34 am

I've noticed that there is confusion and misunderstanding about the actual title of Evangelion 4.0 (as it is unofficially called). According to the official Evangelion website the title is given as シン・エヴァンゲリオン劇場版: || and the last part is either interpreted as || (a final bar line or end bar line) or as : || (a repeat sign). ANN published an article reporting that the title's symbol was : || and thus a repeat sign. However I think this is wrong. All the Rebuild of Evangelion movies have a colon (punctuation mark) in their title seperating the title from the subtitle. Take for example Evangelion 2.0's actual title, ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版: 破 and the subtitle of the movie is not : 破 but rather it is just 破 (or Ha). The colon punctuation should not be considered part of Evangelion 4.0's subtitle but for some reason, it is usually taken as such. This is important to note because it would mean that 4.0's title is Evangelion: Final or Evangelion: End and not Evangelion: End Repeat as is reported so often. Like I said, the colon sign is in all the Rebuild movie titles and is used to seperate the subtitle.

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Postby Chrad » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:36 am

But you'd think Anno would be aware that the position of the colon would mean that any musically minded person would immediately read the title as 'end repeat'.

Why can't it be both?

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Postby Ramiel² » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:41 am

Exactly, this Symbol and its double meaning are not there by chance i think.

Especially after Kaworus voice actor dropped the hint of Repetitions inside if NME (not talking about sequel here..).

It would really make sense for 4.0 have some kind of You can (not) repeat or You can (not) End.
Maybe even something to break the rythm You should (not) repeat/end.

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Postby Xard » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:41 am

It's overwhelmingly likely ment to be readable both ways to signal the fact it'll be end of NME and, well, about (Shinji's) life being a cycle of repeat where he realizes the value of real world and others, distances from it all again, returns ad infinitum like in good old hedhegod dilemma.


Here's Wittgenstein's bunny-duck for comparison:

Image


To me Final's title seems to go at similar "double meaning" - just like Q signified both Kyuu and Quickening
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Jay » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:41 am

View Original PostChrad wrote:But you'd think Anno would be aware that the position of the colon would mean that any musically minded person would immediately read the title as 'end repeat'.

Why can't it be both?


It can't be both because they both have different meanings and the end repeat is usually used as some kind of evidence for the 'sequel theory'.

But anyway, they wanted to use a music symbol, I'm not arguing that, but what I'm saying is they couldn't have left out the colon symbol they have been using for all the films, it would've been inconsistent and it would not have provided a separation of the subtitle from the title. Not sure why that's so hard to understand......

Okay, the consensus is that it is both. I'm wrong then. Just wanted to gauge a consensus. That's all folks. Just to clarify though, from a musical perspective and a technical one, the symbols are not the same and do not mean the same thing. Just so's ya'll know. Any musician can verify this.

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Postby Ramiel² » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:44 am

View Original PostJay wrote:It can't be both because they both have different meanings and the end repeat is usually used as some kind of evidence for the 'sequel theory'.

But anyway, they wanted to use a music symbol, I'm not arguing that, but what I'm saying is they couldn't have left out the colon symbol they have been using for all the films, it would've been inconsistent and it would not have provided a separation of the subtitle from the title. Not sure why that's so hard to understand......

Okay, the consensus is that it is both. I'm wrong then. Just wanted to gauge a consensus. That's all folks.


Ofcourse it can mean both things, just like You can Redo and you can NOT redo means exactly the opposite.

Just because they both meanings oppose each other does not mean that this conflict of meaning is not intended.

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Postby Xard » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:45 am

View Original PostJay wrote:Okay, the consensus is that it is both. I'm wrong then. Just wanted to gauge a consensus. That's all folks. Just to clarify though, from a musical perspective and a technical one, the symbols are not the same and do not mean the same thing. Just so's ya'll know. Any musician can verify this.


Well, obviously. You don't use same sign to signify two things of opposite meanings.

When you're playful with titling like Anno you can play with the ambiguity though.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Jay » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:45 am

View Original PostRamiel² wrote:Ofcourse it can mean both things, just like You can Redo and you can NOT redo means exactly the opposite.

Just because they both meanings oppose each other does not mean that this conflict of meaning is not intended.


They don't mean the same thing though. Someone already talked about musically inclined persons noticing the symbol and reading it as end repeat, those same people could tell you how a final barline is not the same thing. I just don't understand why ANN is reporting it like this, doesn't mean they are wrong, just means there is a lack of understanding on my part.

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Postby Chrad » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:48 am

View Original PostJay wrote:But anyway, they wanted to use a music symbol, I'm not arguing that, but what I'm saying is they couldn't have left out the colon symbol they have been using for all the films, it would've been inconsistent and it would not have provided a separation of the subtitle from the title. Not sure why that's so hard to understand......

Who says they care for consistency? The logo for this film uses a different typeface and different katakana for 'Evangelion' than those for the three previous films.

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Postby Ramiel² » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:49 am

View Original PostJay wrote:They don't mean the same thing though. Someone already talked about musically inclined persons noticing the symbol and reading it as end repeat, those same people could tell you how a final barline is not the same thing. I just don't understand why ANN is reporting it like this, doesn't mean they are wrong, just means there is a lack of understanding on my part.


Oh you mean the thing that the Final Barline has to be thicker or something along those lines?

Granted im not familiar with that to such degree, but then again im rather leaning towards the notion that its double meaning which oppose each other is intended. In the end you have to take in consideration that such a fine detail is not easy to see for a broad audience, whereas everyone can look up the the basic symbol and see that it has one meaning with the double dot and another without it regardless of the thickness of the bars.

My 2 Cents :)

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Postby Xard » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:52 am

View Original PostJay wrote:They don't mean the same thing though. Someone already talked about musically inclined persons noticing the symbol and reading it as end repeat, those same people could tell you how a final barline is not the same thing. I just don't understand why ANN is reporting it like this, doesn't mean they are wrong, just means there is a lack of understanding on my part.


If they didn't do it through colon they couldn't maintain ambiguity. That's exactly the point. If they wanted to clearly name the final film as "repeat" they'd just went and used シン・エヴァンゲリオン劇場版: : ||

With シン・エヴァンゲリオン劇場版: || you can interprept it both as : || or ||

ANN is wrong about film being "Repeat". It's supposed to be Final/Repeat depending on how you interprept it.

Again, see the bunny (or duck?) above
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby FluffyBunny » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:34 pm

Ambiguous things are already all over the EVA universe aren't they? The titles for example, "You are (not) alone" -- does Mr. Anno mean Shinji's alone or not alone?
(Well, I can follow the storyline and figure out what that means, but right now I'm just talking about the title.)
Last edited by FluffyBunny on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:34 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:To me Final's title seems to go at similar "double meaning" - just like Q signified both Kyuu and Quickening.

I'm still a bit confused over that. Can you explain to me how it relates to Quickening also? I just took it as Kyuu.

OT: I like to think of it as just the || end sign. It feels like closure for the Rebuild series.
Please just call me Ian, "TheFrisky" is more of a title.

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Postby Xard » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:40 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I'm still a bit confused over that. Can you explain to me how it relates to Quickening also? I just took it as Kyuu.


My Freudism nerd-fu fails at the moment so I can't remember what exactly Quickening is anyway but that Q stands for Quickening is clearly established:

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/snap2012112819h38m06s66.png/]Image[/URL]


If it didn't stand for Quickening they could just write kyu with the proper kanji, y'know.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby FluffyBunny » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:42 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I'm still a bit confused over that. Can you explain to me how it relates to Quickening also? I just took it as Kyuu.


序(jo) - 破(ha) - 急(Kyu) is the structure of a traditional Japanese play, I heard? The Chinese letter(word) 急 means quickening, literally.

*edit*
Thanks for the corrections. It's not "quickening" as in stuff about an unborn baby, but it does mean a hurry, hurrying up, etc.
Last edited by FluffyBunny on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Azathoth » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:15 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:My Freudism nerd-fu fails at the moment so I can't remember what exactly Quickening is anyway


first movement of the fetus as felt by the mother, of course. one of the best chapters of Berserk goes by the same name: 胎動.

View Original PostFluffyBunny wrote:The Chinese letter(word) 急 means quickening, literally.


Maybe I missed something since I can recognize maybe fifteen kanji on a good day but I'm pretty sure the link between the various titles is that 急 is read "kyu" which is the same reading as "Q" which got Anno thinking about quickening since, after all, the movie is about babby's first independent actions. google translate fwiw tells me that 急 means sudden, urgent.
Nothing is so valuable that it need not be started afresh, nothing is so rich that it need not be enriched constantly.

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Postby Xard » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:21 pm

ahh thanks, that was it. Makes sense and I remembered it had something to do with pregnancy and fetuses but what exactly I couldn't remember. I guess it wasn't particularly Freudian.

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Maybe I missed something since I can recognize maybe fifteen kanji on a good day but I'm pretty sure the link between the various titles is that 急 is read "kyu" which is the same reading as "Q" which got Anno thinking about quickening since, after all, the movie is about babby's first independent actions. google translate fwiw tells me that 急 means sudden, urgent.


1: urgent; sudden; abrupt;
2: sharp; steep; precipitous;
3: rapid; swift; fast;
4: (Noun) emergency; crisis;
5: hurrying; haste;
6: (in gagaku or noh) end of a song

I think your account on the name is correct one (both in terms of meaning and how Anno came up with it). It took me a while to realize the pronounciation thing because as a dirty finnfag I don't naturally pronounce Q like English speakers do.

It's the kyu used in "kyu ni" ("suddenly") expression, for example

also I feel like retard for romanizing 急 as kyuu instead of kyu like it should. Derp.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Azathoth » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:32 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:5: hurrying; haste;


huh. mite b a joke on the other meaning of Quickening then
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Postby Noriko is my wife » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:54 pm

Aside from the things mentioned Q also comes from Anno's tokusatsu fandom and reference habits. Ultra Q is the first show in the Ultra series and Q is the name of an organization in Mighty Jack. Yuichiro "animesama" Oguro said on twitter that this was (also) the meaning behind the title and I trust that he knows this.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:24 am

I know it's been brought up before, but the repeat sign we see consists of:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Music-endbar.svg

The end of a composition, section, movement, etc. And the 2 dots. As opposed to:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Music-doublebar.svg

Which separates divisions (like time changes, signature changes, etc).

Together with the 2 dots, we have:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Music-repeat.png

The double line vs bold line (end) doesn't make a difference in the repeat. The repeat always means "repeat starting from the 2 dots (facing the other direction) or from the beginning if none is indicated, and DO NOT REPEAT again". Unless there are volta brackets which indicate what you should do at the second time around (which could have repeats themselves) or if there is an indication for how many times the repeat should take place (this will be written just above the bar with a "4 times" or "Repeat 4 times" etc.)

It's doubly ambiguous because by itself, it simply means "start over from the beginning and don't repeat again", which doesn't indicate that there is any sort of looping going on. But it would break from the previous movie titles to have anything more than a mere symbol, so it would look weird if there's a "repeat 4 times" or volta brackets or even a forward facing repeat symbol in front of the whole thing. So is this a symbolic "repeat" that's being used here? Or is this a literal taking of the symbol as in, "everything will start over (one time) once we reach the end"?

Additionally, taking the notation literally, repeat symbols have nothing to do with "looping" or time travel or anything of the such. There's nothing symbolic about it. It is, 99.999% of the time, a mere notational tool to save space on paper and time for the transcriber. The result is always the (linear) musical performance to come out of the music and the notation, how it's notated on paper is irrelevant. Repeat symbols can be used, for example, in individual pieces from a score. The basses and cello parts could be written with large quantity of sections being repeated, simply to save paper and to save the time it takes to turn a page. While on the score itself, those same sections aren't notated as repeats since there's other instruments that are playing different things during those same bars. There isn't anything symbolic about a repeat in music, it's to save space and time, and sometimes to facilitate page turns.
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