Thoughts about Mari

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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[SPOILERS] Thoughts about Mari

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Postby robersora » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:48 pm

Ok, listen up: You're in for a treat.

No not really. Just a little voice in my head that reminds me of this idea all the time, so I'll post it here to hear your opinions about it.

Before I begin, I want to state that I'm fully aware, that this thesis might be utter bullshit, but with all those unpredictable twists and turns the new movies have taken (yeah, I'm looking at you, Q), even the wildest speculations are legit (at least for me). Furthermore, I'm sure that even Anno only has a vague idea what Mari is about at this point, or might never reveal anything about her, as this is Shinji's story after all.

Let's dive into it.
Mari is Kaji's child; maybe even the child of Misato. Maybe both are unaware about it.

Well, I've had this suspicion about her not until Q, to be exactly, but it consolidated itself with one little line of Asuka. She said "コネメガネ" Connection-glasses... It refers to the fact, that Mari has connections, which is the reason for her piloting.
So, how do I, in hells name think of Kaiji, of all people?
Kaiji is the only person who knows her in 2.22. So the connection, Mari had to get into an Eva MUST be him.
They don't exactly interact like ordinary daughter and father would, but then again, did Anno really know back then who Mari was? Also, I really think, that Kaiji would interact with his daughter like he did in 2.0.
Maybe he didn't know it back than, yet they realized it sometime between 2.0 and 3.0.
Which was the reason why Mari would get into Wille.
Due to Kaiji and Misato, because, yeah... she is their daughter.

I know, it's far fetched, but I think it could happen. I mean... after Q, my anus is ready for everything.

So, speculate, refute me, or don't. I hope I could bring my point across.
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Postby Charsi » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:24 pm

Well, here's my speculation. Not sure if it 100% belongs in this thread but maybe so.

The explanation is far simpler than "Mari is somebody's kid". It's that you need an ace in the hole. Mari is the ace in the hole... of WILLE.

The more I think about it the more I think the groundwork for WILLE was being laid back in 2.0. If this is true, then it's absolutely brilliant. Allow me to elaborate:

- Kaji is laying the groundwork for WILLE.
- He's pretending to be a loyalist to Gendo, gathering intelligence on Seele and sabotaging Bethany Base and the Marduk Project.
- I'm even willing to bet that he arranged for the angel to get free (conveniently suited up, helmet in hand while alarms ring) so that it and the Provisional Eva engage in mutually assured destruction.
- At the same time he steals the key and delivers it to Gendo as a gesture of loyalty.

In the TV series it was never clear where Kaji's loyalties lay. He reveals Lilith to Misato, clearly trying to "turn" her.. but to whom? Against instrumentality, if nothing else. At the very end of 2.0 he makes remarks that almost sound like they come from an impartial observer, not somebody with a favorite horse in the race. In the TV series, there's not really a clear 3rd party. There's just "tang everyone" and "tang me so I can see Yui".

No, the more I think about it, the more I think Kaji is the mastermind behind WILLE. He's laying the groundwork in Rebuild 2.0. Both Seele and NERV want instrumentality - just different approaches/goals. Kaji - and WILLE - represent the "no" camp. The folks who don't want to turn into tang. And if they want to stand a chance against Seele and it's MP series, or NERV and it's Ayanami series (see what I did there?) they need an ace in the hole. And that's Mari.

Mari who parachutes into a school and swaps a tape. Mari who clearly has people inside NERV opening doors for her during an emergency, leaving her a plugsuit, getting an EVA out of stasis and launching it. Mari who pilots Eva 02 while it's operating outside the jurisdiction/authority of NERV operational command.

So, I disagree with the idea that Mari is anybody's kid. I think she's just a kid. She thinks she's using adults to get what she wants (presumably "pilot eva"), while the adults - Kaji - think they're using the kids to get what they want (presumably "hamstring Bethany Base").

If Kaji masterminds WILLE it explains a lot. It even explains some unexplained stuff from the TV series (imho). Mari is his ace in the hole, his guaranteed pilot, his favoured four-eyes. The moment he springs the WILLE surprise on everyone, he's got a pilot in his corner - presumably with an Eva. That's how she has her foot in the door from the get-go. Asuka, well, you're never sure which way she's gonna explode. She's temperamental. She might join you, she might not (and maybe the Kaji thing she had going on in the TV series makes more sense and why that part has been conspicuously dropped from Rebuild).

So I don't think Mari is his kid. I think Kaji is setting up a counter-instrumentality group, and Mari's his go-to pilot.

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Postby Jayfive » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:25 pm

Theres something going on, but you might be barking up the wrong tree.

Apparently (and I hope ive got this right) theres a photo of Yui and co at the time of second impact showing someone who looks like Mari.

The prevailing theories are
1) Mari has been around for that long (possible thanks to the curse of eva)
2) Thats her mum in that pic.

The fact that Asuka talks about 'connections' seems to point to 2)
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:13 pm

First off, yes I want to say again here I'm very certain Mari and Kaji are in league with or forming Wille as early as before 2.0. But that aside...

I'm going to try wrapping my head around the 'Mari is older than Asuka' theory because it's really interesting and would serve narrative purposes. I'm kind of hoping it's true now. Watching her opening scene in 2.0 with that notion in mind certainly makes it seem more worthwhile than it has before.

This post is full of overreaching and still holds no evidence, assumes the rumor that she's in the Yui footage would be accurate. If this looks silly to anyone, just consider it a desperate yearning that Mari actually mean something and be more crucial to the story than a usefully kickass pilot. And of course that these movies have more planning going into them than I have been presuming for a while.

Points in favor of Mari being older than expected from 2.0:

- Intimate knowledge of Evangelion, how it works. She strikes me at least as someone who could easily have been around them from the time of development. We've never seen anyone who had never even synced with an Eva be so proficient in piloting, I think it's far more than keen videogame senses; she defnitely knows her stuff more than even Asuka ever did.

- She sings old songs (also in 3.0). Again a reach but just noting it.

- She somewhat echos Yui's EoE tenet when saying 'Well, as long as I'm alive, it's all good.' Did they know eachother? I know this one's really a stretch but I'm fanwanking, what can I say.

- 'I feel awkward involving adults for the sake of my own goals' is such an odd phrasing to me... I mean obviously it's the setup to the Kaji punchline of saying the opposite (though might have been more effective to be spoken after his line rather than before). But going with this theory that gets a deeper meaning; she considers the adults 'others' because she will never be one, and clearly refuses to think of herself as one, even being chronologically old enough.

- Kaji and Gendo discuss that getting rid of Eva-05 was also part of the plan. Is this meant to imply to Gendo and the rest of Nerv that Mari is to be presumed dead? Keep in mind that if she knew Yui then Gendo knew Mari too, and would possibly consider her an undesired presence.

- Beast Mode. Let's be clear about this... Mari is the most proficient and accomplished pilot we've ever seen in Evangelion aside possibly from Asuka's MP Eva fight. The fact is that this being her second actual encounter, and the vast knowledge she does have, would make far more sense with a richer background.

- Her line at the end about 'I get it now. So things just fall into place for him. I wonder if that's the difference in smell, after all.' Could it be the middle sentence is about Yui, or Gendo, instead of Shinji himself? This is right as Third Impact is obviously going on; in what possible way could this be things 'falling into place' for Shinji as opposed to those other two, who she may have known. (I'm hoping for more parsing of the original Japanese in this statement, maybe some credence or dismissal to this part of the speculation is in order)

Points in favor of Mari being older than expected from 3.0:

- No reports of her demeanor or characteristics having changed at all so far. Yet Asuka has somewhat. Meaning her identity had already solidified?

- Speculation of photo of her with Yui (though none have given real speculation to her apparent age in said photo, and I've no idea if it was a pre or post 2I photo in the first place)
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Postby bladerj » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:20 pm

View Original PostJayfive wrote:Theres something going on, but you might be barking up the wrong tree.

Apparently (and I hope ive got this right) theres a photo of Yui and co at the time of second impact showing someone who looks like Mari.

The prevailing theories are
1) Mari has been around for that long (possible thanks to the curse of eva)
2) Thats her mum in that pic.

The fact that Asuka talks about 'connections' seems to point to 2)


I dont think that is mari, remember, ritsuko is the spit image of her mother as well, thats why she died her her and changed hairstyle

to me, mari is willie what kaworu is to seele, and what Rei is to nerv, a tool created from some sample. Rei is lilith, kaworu is adam (maybe ? still), and mari is eve ?? at least she has the same cateye iris as kaworu, and she is the only character with that similar eye design.
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Postby robersora » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:22 pm

@Charsi: That would be logical. Too logical for my and Eva's-loltroll storyline.
@Jayfive: Well yeah, that would be more like it.

@Seele00TextOnly
Well yeah.... Would make sense and would support the theory, that Mari was indeed in the Eva-team as a scientist, maybe. She's the only one who knows the beast-mode in 2.0...


OR:
Maybe there's not only an Ayanami-series, but also a Shikinami and Makinami-series. All clones from Yui, just different aspects of her personality, thus the stereotypes they present in NME. Would also explain the name-similarity.
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Postby kaji kun » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:27 pm

Remember in the original preview for 3.0 in 2.22, there is a sign that says Mari is in a room with _____, and it's blanked out? I wonder who that was supposed to be.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:33 pm

One additional point, her wanting to not have an encounter with Gendo or Fuyutsuki would also explain her refusal to open communications with HQ during the Zeruel battle.

edit: And she calls Gendo 'Gendo-kun' in Q apparently... holy crap this stuff is lining up :x
Last edited by Seele00TextOnly on Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bladerj » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:34 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:@Charsi: That would be logical. Too logical for my and Eva's-loltroll storyline.
@Jayfive: Well yeah, that would be more like it.

@Seele00TextOnly
Well yeah.... Would make sense and would support the theory, that Mari was indeed in the Eva-team as a scientist, maybe. She's the only one who knows the beast-mode in 2.0...


OR:
Maybe there's not only an Ayanami-series, but also a Shikinami and Makinami-series. All clones from Yui, just different aspects of her personality, thus the stereotypes they present in NME. Would also explain the name-similarity.


while not trying to debunk your theory the name similarities are actually anno homage to ww2 battlaships.
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Re: [SPOILY]Suspicion about Mari

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Postby ohnasti » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:35 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:Let's dive into it.
Mari is Kaji's child; maybe even the child of Misato. Maybe both are unaware about it.

really?..... it's alright to throw ramdom guesses. but i will literally end my life, if this happens.
unless Mari is from the Future this is most likely not happening.

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Postby StratoSakuya...AF » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:58 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:One additional point, her wanting to not have an encounter with Gendo or Fuyutsuki would also explain her refusal to open communications with HQ during the Zeruel battle.

edit: And she calls Gendo 'Gendo-kun' in Q apparently... holy crap this stuff is lining up :x


The -kun part alone puts her in Gendo's age rank, meaning the woman in the picture is definitely Mari. And with the "So things just happen to him", she may indeed be referring to Gendo too, considering that was his goal.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:16 pm

Is this picture thing actually confirmed by anyone? Lili didn't mention it to me and I don't recall Ornette commenting on it either.
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Postby Fazmotron » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:42 pm

Mari is a Space Robot.
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Postby Grand Duke of Yashima » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:22 pm

A group of us had read the various plot synopses of 3.0 and after some lengthy discussion about Mari and a few bottles of wine we came up with our prevailing crazy theories about who or what she is.

Theory #1: Mari is time-traveling daughter of Shinji and Asuka. - we at first discounted the theory as it sounded too much like fanfiction, but considering that Q is pretty much bat-shit crazier than any fanfic we ever read felt we needed to take the theory seriously. The reasons given for this were:
A) Mari's appearance (half-Japanese, half-European, blue eyes like Asuka's, brown hair like Shinji's) would be logical for such a character.
B) Mari's ability to sync with EVA-02 could indicate some relation with Asuka, although considering that EVAs don't seem to be pilot-specific any longer that evidence is not as strong (and then just who's in EVA-08?)
C) Mari's evident knowledge of the workings of EVA, including being able to activate Beast Mode, etc., might have been gained from knowledge in the future about them.
D) Yui and Gendo's photo: there's been no photo posted on-line yet but if Mari's there it's indication she can time-travel, or perhaps doesn't get old, or something else.
E) Mari, among the pilots, is the most down-to-earth and at ease with herself i.e. "normal". If Shinji and Asuka survived and learned their lessons, their child would be raised with a much positive attitude than they had as children themselves.
F) Mari's throwaway line to Shinji "Hello, Father" wasn't factitious.

Theory #2: Mari is Kaji's daughter. - Again, not taken seriously at first but some aspects make sense if it's true, including
A) Explains why Mari is closer to him in NME, and how's she's privy to secret knowledge about the EVA.
B) If Kaji is head of WILL-E (and I think that's gotta be the case here), calling her "the favorite" is probably in line with this.
C) Possibly some physical resemblance to Kaji, including her height, but no guess as to who the mother is. It's not Misato, we were pretty sure about that.

Theory #3: Mari is from The Past. - This was the most outrageous one, and this guy suggested that perhaps Mari was at one point like Shinji, someone who could pilot EVA in some long-ago scenario and somehow learned the lessons better. Because of the "Curse of EVA" Mari didn't get old and was still around by the present day. Evidence for this included
A) Yui and Gendo's photo (see above)
B) Somehow explains how Mari has more knowledge of EVA, as they were also a pilot themselves in the distant past.
C) Explains the lack of a background story, as it's just so far back that perhaps even she doesn't know where she comes from.


I myself didn't have a personal favorite among the three, I think all of the theories have big whopping holes in them. There's nothing wrong with Mari just being some other pilot like Toji or the rest, except for the fact that she's elevated to the standard of the other main characters now and there's just a screaming need to fill in a backstory that's been quite clearly kept from the viewers. I myself tend to think she's Nadia: she may not know her own backstory at first but once it's revealed she'll be related by blood to at least one of our main characters. I think that the mystery of her background is quite intriguing.
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Postby Ornette » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:22 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Is this picture thing actually confirmed by anyone? Lili didn't mention it to me and I don't recall Ornette commenting on it either.

I don't remember a picture, at least not like a photograph picture, there may have been one that was displayed somewhere but I don't recall. The beginning and ending were pretty dense as far as things happening so I could have easily missed it.

Was there a scan of it in the theatrical program? I haven't even opened mine yet (they come sealed).
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:32 pm

View Original PostGrand Duke of Yashima wrote:F) Mari's throwaway line to Shinji "Hello, Father" wasn't factitious.


I think you mean Kaworu towards Gendo in 2.0, unless there's something I missed regarding Q. (I know there was some troll posts about Mari making such comments towards Asuka or Shinji--also Mari somehow being a time-travelling Yui.) Mari being Shinji and Asuka's time travelling daughter would be like something out of Sailor Moon but eh.
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Postby Grub » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:25 am

Being their time-travelling daughter just seems too simple for the series, though. It's probably something way more eff'd up, as usual.
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Postby penguintruth » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:28 am

Mari is Pen Pen.

Think about it. They've never been in the same place at the same time.

The reason she was able to activate ZA BEASTO is because "she" is a BEASTO.

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Postby Zeruss » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:16 am

I absolutely love the Kaji + Mari Wille groundwork theory; I really hope it's something similar, because it makes their characters so much more interesting than what has already been shown.

About the photo (if it is indeed real and it is Mari we see), perhaps she was one of the first children to test the LCL/Eva system. Surely they might've tested the whole thing with someone closer to the desired age range (13-14 yo). Mari could've been part of that first group people (or quite possibly the first person) to test the entire thing, including Yui, and thus (due the whole Eva curse/LCL thing) she retained her young age--for all we know, she could be involved in Yui's plan? Idk.

Or, quite simply, it's Mari's mother in the picture (which isn't as interesting an option to me, but I'll admit it might be a more logical approach to the whole photo thing).
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Postby TheTuna » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:15 am

I love both the theory about Mari and Kaji's involvement in WILLE as well as the theory regarding Mari's history with the Evangelion project. They're both good and quite plausible.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the odds on us ever getting more explanation of Mari's character are maybe 50-50 at best. A shame, as both she and Kaji had a great deal of potential to explore in Rebuild, but understandable given Rebuild's highly Shinji-centric nature.


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