Translation of Evangelion: 3.0

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:50 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Another explanation would be that she was so frenzied by the fight that she said that line without really thinking it, like when Shinji said that he "didn't cared about the world" when curb-stomping Zeruel.

I was going to suggest something much like this. It might even be correct -- after all, that phrase might have exactly the connotation of "shut up and die" and we're the ones who are jumping the gun saying it's inaccurate.
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Postby kboyrulez12345 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Yep, she also wants to kill him in the country of the cheese and wine!
Another explanation would be that she was so frenzied by the fight that she said that line without really thinking it, like when Shinji said that he "didn't cared about the world" when curb-stomping Zeruel.

I made a complete report of all the notes I took about the translation two pages ago.


That would be a good explanation, but is there any evidence to suggest that? If not, that's okay. It is a valid assumption, since Asuka really doesn't want to kill Shinji.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:46 pm

Not really any evidence, just plain logic : she said she want to kill him, but once everything is said and done she apparently ran to his entry plug to check on him and instead of letting him rot on the spot, took him with her, even if in his catatonic state he's a burden that diminish her chances to survive in the desert.

Also, there is the fact that the Japanese line don't talk at all about killing.
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Postby kboyrulez12345 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:06 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Not really any evidence, just plain logic : she said she want to kill him, but once everything is said and done she apparently ran to his entry plug to check on him and instead of letting him rot on the spot, took him with her, even if in his catatonic state he's a burden that diminish her chances to survive in the desert.

Also, there is the fact that the Japanese line don't talk at all about killing.


Thank you ElMariachi. I can accept this.

Though about the desert thing, I think it's most likely the fact that Asuka, Shinji, and Rei aren't human anymore. I believe they can naturally survive that thanks to some of the theory's here. But I'll save that for another thread.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:27 pm

Well, there is this L Barrier thing that's supposed to prevent anyone to come to rescue them, yet they are fine and in for a long trip into a desert, but in any case between Rei who is a clone, Asuka with her funky eye and fangs and finally Shinji who can turn his eyes red when really pissed off and somehow became a living fuse for apocalyptic god-machines, and finally the curse of Eva that I'm sure Shinji also suffers, none of them can really be considered as normal humans anymore...
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:54 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:It might even be correct -- after all, that phrase might have exactly the connotation of "shut up and die" and we're the ones who are jumping the gun saying it's inaccurate.


I find this possibility basically impossible given the information we have now.

When you watch/read/consumer enough Japanese media with fighting and battles in it and character screaming threats or narrating their own surroundings you will know that there is a relatively well established set of expressions for meaning death and harm upon eachother but the ones that come up the most often are:

殺す - korosu - to kill
死ぬ - shinu - to die
墜ちる - ochiru - to fall/crash

These are what you will hear in the threats people scream at eachother. 殺すぞ! 死ね/死になさい!!墜ちろ!Korosu zo! Shine/Shininasai! Ochiro! I'll kill you! Die! Fall! Of if you like translating liberally then just interchange all of those english traslations to your own taste.

Now what Asuka uses actually comes up extremely rarely in the form of a threat.
遣られる/やられる - yarareru - to suffer damage (EDICT definition)

But it still comes up A LOT in anime. Especially mecha anime. And almost always for narrating the situation. The reason for that is the mecha or ship and the crew inside them are seperate entities and the former can soak up damage with necessarily harming those inside. The context in which it comes up is also extremely broad.
Most common form you'll encounter: やられた - yarareta
Has been translated in a billion different ways: I'm/We're hit, they got me/us, etc.
Pilot's craft gets hit - やられた! (They're still there to say it.)
Battleship is hit - やられた! (Kitakami actually says this in Q after one of Mark.09's attacks hits Wunder)
Pilot sees a wingman get hit - _____にやられた! _____ is hit!
Another extremely common form: ヤラレチャッタ - yararechatta
This one is a lot more common for refering to damage sustained to oneself.

やられろ/yararero as used by Asuka still comes up once in a while but basically never as a death threat because better alternatives mentioned above are available.

But that's just mecha anime. Putting that aside the phrase is perfectly appropriate in the context of much smaller situations removed far from war and conflict. A pickpocket steals your wallet, you get a parking ticket, some salesman screws in you into signing a ridiculous contract, you finally catch that cold that the rest of the family has been suffering from etc. やられた/"They/It got me" is perfectly appropriate in those situation.

You played a prank on me - やられた/yarareta
But I'll get you back やられろ/yararero

The whole point of this phrase seems to be the flexibility in application when expessing what is usually an undesirable status, let getting shot. There is also plenty of uncertainty available within it. Your ship or mecha gets hit. Can you continue the fight? Or are you forced to retreat? Can you even make it back to base? Hell the pilot could even be mortally wounded but still alive just long enough for an emotional scene.

Using it specifically as a threat is thus best interpreted as inflicting that undesirable status, whatever it may be. But if you mean death why would you use the vaguest and least threatening word possible? It just makes no sense.

Going back to Eva and the examples in ep 12 with the 3 stooges and ep 23 with the door sign, in both cases Asuka uses 殺す - korosu - to kill, with zero room for ambiguity.
The fact that Soryu threatens actually killing for relatively minor things like peeking, which is basically a comedic situation, while Shikinami is in the heat of battle and choosing yararero over all the other available threatening alternatives speaks volumes. Also keep in mind how obscenely iterative the NME production is and how many times things get re-written and changed. Whatever made the final cut is there for a very good reason.

It's just ridiculously unlikely for Asuka to MEAN actual death upon Shinji in Q given the specific language used and her situation as a 14-year veteran and professional sent in to prevent another Impact. Included in which is the task of retrieving the trigger. And no, preventing impact by eliminating the trigger is not an option because we have a whole movie left.

Until I see definitive proof that the official translators had additional input specifically implying the extra meaning, or until some Japanese sources like the Q CRC or even Final reveal Asuka's true feelings and intent I will continue to :irked: upon translating that line in the yet unjustifiably extremist way.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:36 pm

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:The fact that Soryu threatens actually killing for relatively minor things like peeking, which is basically a comedic situation, while Shikinami is in the heat of battle and choosing yararero over all the other available threatening alternatives speaks volumes. Also keep in mind how obscenely iterative the NME production is and how many times things get re-written and changed. Whatever made the final cut is there for a very good reason.

It's just ridiculously unlikely for Asuka to MEAN actual death upon Shinji in Q given the specific language used and her situation as a 14-year veteran and professional sent in to prevent another Impact. Included in which is the task of retrieving the trigger. And no, preventing impact by eliminating the trigger is not an option because we have a whole movie left.

Maybe that was the point? By using "yararero" as a threat instead of a real and unambiguous death threat the movie put the doubt in the viewer(and Shinji) if she really wanted to kill him or "just" to beat the crap out of him until he surrender.

After all, while screaming that line, Asuka was pointing two giant blades at Shinji's Eva's head, and seeing just how enraged she looked, nothing said that she would have stopped with the head if she made contact... but there is also the fact that after the fight she had gone to check on Shinji and took him with her... ambiguous and confusing, in a sense that perfectly fits with Q!

But maybe the western distributors didn't have any expression conveying such ambiguity(or didn't checked with Khara to have precisions) and took the interpretation which offered the more drama.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Wait, Funimation already released the Blu-ray or something? How do we know this is their translation? I can't even find a release date online for the Funi discs, and we already have their translations on it?

Did I miss something? :bigeyes:
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:59 pm

The assumption is being made that English subs seen at official screenings are Funi's. But it is just an assumption.
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:02 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Maybe that was the point? By using "yararero" as a threat instead of a real and unambiguous death threat the movie put the doubt in the viewer(and Shinji) if she really wanted to kill him or "just" to beat the crap out of him until he surrender.

To me that seemed to be exactly the point.
She is agressive in her assault but that is because of what is at stake: The whole damn world, or what's left of it.
She can't be after his death because he can still be an asset to Wille, a piece valueable enough for Gendo to swipe instead of Eva-01.
She needs him to stop. She needs him out of action, out of the damn Eva and away from Gendo.
Whether he voluntarily complies or she has to chop away at Eva-13 until only his entry plug is left doesn't seem relevant.

Changing that one line to threatening death completely undermines both Asuka as a character and Wille as the force of good in the world.


EDIT:
Funimation had a Q screening at San Diego Comic-Con. That is the source of thier subs.
Or at least it should be their subs. Otherwise why would they be the ones hosting and promoting it?

EDIT2 : http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14950/Evangelion-30-Screening-at-San-Diego-Comic-Con/
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:08 pm

How different were Funi's subs for Eva 1.11 or 2.22 compared to the initial fan subs? Were they more or less the same as one another, or were they as different as these subs for 3.33?

Also, was Funi screening 3.0 or 3.33? I'm not aware of any dialogue changes made by Anno & Co. between the two versions of film, but it still might make a difference in how Funi is marketing the product through their initial subs and what-not.

EDIT: Seems like it was 3.0, not 3.33. (Assuming they have the ability to chose between the two in the first place. Since they did for 2.0 and 2.22, I assume it's actually 3.0.) I'm not sure if that means they'll adjust the subs for the 3.33 Blu-ray releases.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:36 pm

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:She can't be after his death because he can still be an asset to Wille, a piece valueable enough for Gendo to swipe instead of Eva-01.
She needs him to stop. She needs him out of action, out of the damn Eva and away from Gendo.
Whether he voluntarily complies or she has to chop away at Eva-13 until only his entry plug is left doesn't seem relevant.

Well, truth be told, for the little we have seen of his time at WILLE, Shinji isn't really an asset for WILLE rather than an asset for Gendo that WILLE must keep out of his reach at all cost. Per se Shinji looks more like a complete burden : can't pilot an Eva anymore, is too young to assume any other fighting post, don't have any technical or theoretical knowledge that could be useful in a battleship(medicine, mechanic, about the Evas...), and they can't even let him in a Lilin settlement to continue his life and get rid of him because of his status as Impact Trigger...
So under that light it could be understood that Asuka had gone directly for the kill, after all the only way he's useful is for the enemy and he's being used by said enemy.

Also she didn't let any chance to Shinji to voluntarily comply : the second she realized it was Shinji who was piloting, she screamed "then don't pilot"... and charged blade first at him, and didn't stopped a single second even through Shinji only blocked her assaults during almost five minutes, and after that only pushed her with the RS Hopper's AT Field and bitch-slapped her when she ended out of battery, while by that moment he had every reason to completely demolish her Eva as retaliation.(that would have been an hilarious situation : Asuka : "Shut up and diiiiiie!" *out of battery* Shinji : *crackig EVA-13's knuckles* "Care to repeat that?" :lol: )

Although it's possible that the way thing were presented through the movie were to make us think that Shinji has become no more than a genocidal burden and that WILLE wanted his death by the time of the final fight... only to discover in Final that actually he's not accused of destroying the world, but punished because he nearly began an Impact 14 years ago and because he spent 14 years fused with a god-machine abomination, and hey, maybe they actually intended to make him pilot another Eva!(after all, why put him a collar which monitors when he enters in an Eva if they don't plan to make him pilot an Eva?)
And there is also various hints that WILLE's objectives aren't that murderous : first Mari seemed unfazed by Asuka's frenzy, the same Mari that later saved Shinji's life by ejecting his entry plug instead of obliterating it, Asuka later looking for him...


Actually, to stay in topic, I have the feeling that until Final is released and clears everyone's intentions it will be very difficult to determine what are the true meaning of some lines, this one included.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:20 pm

Hm. I guess this might be an issue of subbing what a character meant instead of what they said. I don't care for the latter, personally. Just translate what they said and let the actors' inflections, the context, and the Mise-en-scène clue me in on what they meant.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:49 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Nuke-kun, while your memories are still fresh, do you remember what was the translation of Kaworu's lines when he explained Shinji's role in 3I

Yes, he calls Shinji, "The key to it all."

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Also, the term he used to describe the FoIs while descending through the Main Shaft with EVA-13, and finally his line about Lilith's Chamber being the "epicenter/origin" of 3I?

He says, "They are the ones that failed to merge with the Infinite." It has strong rings of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Now, about Mari :
- what did she said about Rei Q "becoming/being absorbed" by Mark.09?
- just after that, was was her comment about Rei's "original"?
- Finally, what was her line while ejecting Shinji about "saving/helping the Princess"?

She made a comment about ReiQ being absorbed by the Adam's Vessel, and told Shinji to "Save the princess." (Like in the UTW.) There was no change in Mari's comment about ReiQ's original being easier to get along with that I can recall.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Finally, about Asuka again, what did she said when she opened Shinji's entry plug, her "you didn't come to save/help me"?

Pretty much the exact same thing, mate.

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Nuke-kun, did Funi replace the Japanese telops (To be continued, Next Time Preview, etc) with English ones like they did for 1.0 and 2.0 or did they just subtitle the words?

I don't know; something internally broke inside of the projector and we didn't get to see the trailer. :irked:

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:How did Funimation render Misato's "Shinji Ikari, you don't need to do anything" line?

Her exact line: "Shinji Ikari. Do nothing."

Oh, and ladies and gentlemen! I have translations from two Japanese women deeply into Eva. They teach Japanese to both non-speakers and natives, so I highly valued their input. For Shinji's line, "You're clueless!" right before the RSS Hoppers attack Asuka, they have re-translated it as, "You're not trying to understand/you're too lazy to try to understand!" It really gives a new flavor to Shinji's feelings and emotions in this scene, and could lead to some awesome analysis. As to Asuka's line (which people are bitching about the Funi translation, myself now included) of, "Shut up and let me kill you, Shinji, you brat!" they have translated it to something more like the UTW translation: "Give up and die, Shinji, you brat!" Food for thought.

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Postby thegoodson » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:30 pm

Back when the whole 'Let the Right One In' subtitle debacle happened, fans emailed Magnolia releasing over their shoddy translation, ultimately resulting in a subsequent release with improved subs.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_Pictures#Subtitle_controversy[/url]

Though in that instance there were widespread issues throughout the entirety of the movie and the "die" mini-controversy is regulated to one specific line in 3.0, I think that if anyone really wanted it changed, emailing Funimation is not that bad of an idea.

A bunch of people sending emails detailing why the line is problematic based on the con screening might result in a change. Granted there were a lot of people comparatively behind the 'Let the Right One In' campaign, the fact that that was successful enough to get an entire reprint might be good news for those who'd like the line changed. It would be much more likely to get it done now IMO because the home video release of 3.0 isn't even announced yet.

It just depends on how invested you are in getting that one line changed. It could be good for eliminating confusion of character intent as well as avoiding future unnecessary discussion. And honestly, it'd only take a minute to send an email: "Regarding the Subs at Eva 3.0 Screening". Or tweet. Or facebook. I just don't want those who feel this is too big of a fuck up to think they have no way to speak out against it.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:46 am

Thanks again Nuke-kun!

So Funimation's translations are extremely similar to the Dybex ones.
incredible how just slightly changing a line(or sometimes even a single word!) could completely change the meaning of everything :

- Kaworu again calls Shinji the "key" and not the "cause", that leave the door open for the prospect that Shinji's N3I at the end of 2.0 isn't what destroyed the world,but something else that happened later and somehow implicated EVA-01. Do you remember the second part of their discussion, when Shinji said that all he wanted was to save Rei, and Kaworu responded "True, but that was the catalyst."? Did he called "that" the catalyst or the cause?


- the "merge with the Infinite" was also in the French subs, and comforts me in my idea that the FoIs were born in Lilith's Chamber and escalated all the way up to the surface where they attained a state called "Infinity", which for me is the merging in one single giant and perfect lifeform by fusing with the landscape and turning it to a giant core, and the teeth canyon and giant red crosses are actually fused FoIs(we even see some of them frozen mid-fusion with other FoIs to for a bigger form, maybe a giant cross?). That would also imply that the landscape was turned to core only around 3I ground zero, there couldn't have been enough FoI to trun the whole world into core!


- With Mari's comment toward Rei Q and the ADAM's Vessel, I think we can conclude that Mark.09 had the nasty habit to try to absorb its pilot when he get a little too warmed up without any mean to let the pilot out, that means that some of Rei Q predecessors shared that funnest fate.


- Misato's line is again simply "Do nothing", which give her phrase a different sense that in the UTW and GitHub subs : "From now on, you'll do nothing" sounded extremely ominous and hateful, Misato basically said that from this point, they will never let him do anything, which eerily sounds like a perpetual prison sentence, that WILLE will put him in a quarantine cell with a DSS Choker and will never let him out.

But just "Do nothing" sounds like Misato is "just" confirming what Ristuko said, that he's not needed to pilot, which serves as a big contrast with the pre-time skip Misato which always tried to convince him to pilot because he's needed. It could also be interpreted as her shutting up an annoying kid while she and other adults are busy with "adult business", that could also be an interpretation of the crew's reaction to Shinji asking to pilot to go help Asuka, like Midori"s "tch".

In fact, if we take that whole scene as a dark reprise of the beginning of 1.0, then that second translation made much more sense, on a narrative level.
And it leave the door open for WILLE actually having something else in mind for him aside from a quarantine cell until neo-NERV and SEELE are destroyed(which could range from months if not years, to never)



View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Oh, and ladies and gentlemen! I have translations from two Japanese women deeply into Eva. They teach Japanese to both non-speakers and natives, so I highly valued their input. For Shinji's line, "You're clueless!" right before the RSS Hoppers attack Asuka, they have re-translated it as, "You're not trying to understand/you're too lazy to try to understand!" It really gives a new flavor to Shinji's feelings and emotions in this scene, and could lead to some awesome analysis. As to Asuka's line (which people are bitching about the Funi translation, myself now included) of, "Shut up and let me kill you, Shinji, you brat!" they have translated it to something more like the UTW translation: "Give up and die, Shinji, you brat!" Food for thought.

Effectively, that's food for thoughts.

By your acquaintance's translation, it looks like Shinji and Asuka's role are inverted compared to the previous translations : Shinji becomes the one who desperately tries to reason with Asuka(becoming the voice of the reason) while Asuka become the irrational one, too blinded by her current feelings(here, pure rage) to listen at all to what Shinji has to say and talk to him, which could have prevented the spears to be pulled off. Which make her rant at the end of the film really hypocrite.

Of course the roles are inverted again son after when Shinji, completely panicked, ignores Kaworu's desperate pleas for him to stop.

Here again, littles changes in the translation makes big changes in how a scene is interpreted. Maybe that's what Anno wanted, so we don't know who to trust and who could be considered as the voice of the reason, to get us as confused as Shinji, and we will have to wait for Final for clarifications?
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:39 am

Regarding "Shinji's line, "You're clueless!" right before the RSS Hoppers attack Asuka"

The phrase in question is わからずや

It should be noted that aside from screaming that at Asuka in Central Dogma、 Shinji also screams it at Misato when Mark.09 arrives:

SPOILER: Show
Image
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Shinji is throwing the exact same tantrum twice. He's accusing others of being blind to what is plainly obvious to him:

-That Rei IS alive. SHE RIGHT FUCKING THERE MISATO-SAN WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
-That those are the spears of hope that will SAVE THE WORLD and he MUST pilot the Eva to do it! WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY Asuka!?

In both cases the people he accuses of being clueless are the ones that have been dealing with this shit for 14 years and do actually know better. He's doing his very best to secure his status as a narrow-minded baka gaki.
"Hooray for other things!" -NAveryW

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:05 am

Good finding TMB!
Yet another instance of Anno loving to repeat key moments, Eva is a story that repeats indeed!

Although to be fair both cases are example of tragic miscommunication and narrow-mindedness :

- Misato told him that Rei doesn't exist anymore, and one minute later Rei arrives with Unit 00 and told him to come with him. Objectively, there was no other outcomes possible that Shinji going with her, he didn't had enough information about Gendo, SEELE, the Ayanami-series... since apparently Misato lied to him about Rei, from that point she could have been lying about anything else(hell he didn't even really believed the 14 years time skip until he saw the ruins of NERV!), the fact that WILLE put him a DSS Choker must have helped him in his decision too.

- sure Shinji was being narrow-minded in thinking that HE must be the one to save the world and by not listening to Kawou in the end, but Asuka apparently knew about what touching those spears will do, yet didn't bothered to simply tell it to Shinji instead of going into a full assault.

Crazy how 90% of the plot could have been avoided if the characters had a little more time to explain, or were willing to listen and talk(that goes for everyone), and I'm sure that Gendo counted on it! :emogendo:
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:13 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Kaworu responded "True, but that was the catalyst."? Did he called "that" the catalyst or the cause?

He calls it the Catalyst in the Funi subtitles.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:12 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:He calls it the Catalyst in the Funi subtitles.

So Kaworu calls Shinji the "key" to it all" and after that Shinji wanting to save Rei was "the catalyst".

In the Funimation subs, Kaworu doesn't said once "you're responsible or the cause", but a part in it.
That just comfort me in my opinion that what we saw in 2.0 wasn't what wrecked the world, and that something or someone else monkeyed with Lilith and/or EVA-01, which led to the proper 3I.(maybe unbeknown to the NERV people that later founded WILLE), all of this making Shinji indirectly responsible by the system of cause to effect.
A shame I don't remember Kaworu's second line from the French subtitles!

Thank you yet again Nuke-kun! ^_^
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


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