Who's worse, Shinji or Gendo? An analysis

[CyberXIII]

I hear this all the time. Paraphrased:

"Shinji's a whiny molesting bitch who's as evil as his father!"

"Gendo's an abusive heartless bastard who probably raped his adoptive daughter!"

I realize that the parallels between Shinji and Gendo are intentional for dozens of reasons, but honestly I think one was worse than the other. I realize this is a matter of opinion, but I'm just going to throw my own opinion out there and see what happens.

Every day, particularly in the Rebuild subforum, people have been comparing Shinji to his father. However, for the purposes of this rant I'm going to stick to the original series.

Shinji is ultimately a better person than his father.

Intelligent viewers are probably going to note that that's not much of an accomplishment, but hear me out. The issue isn't as black and white as most of us (myself included) would like to believe it is.

Let's go over Gendo's motivations first. Gendo, for all his faults, really did love his family while Yui was alive. Actually, let me restate that: Yui is all that Gendo really cares about. Everything he does, and I do mean everything, is so he can one day be reunited with his lost love and be happy. In other words, his own selfish happiness is worth more to him than the love of his son, his girlfriend, and adopted daughter, along with the lives of all those under his command. Ignoring the creepy factor of his relationship with Rei, Gendo's perfectly willing to sacrifice her if he has to. To him, she's just a stand-in for Yui, with all the subtext that entails. On the other hand Rei is the only person he's actually legitimately nice to...which is really kind of sad.

On top of the baggage from Yui's death, he has to deal with SEELE, who are the only people worse than he is. SEELE is basically a group of old men with god complexes, and I absolutely refuse to think that they gave two shits about anyone but themselves. The self-righteous crap they spout off about "humanity's evolution stagnating" is a lie; they just want to be gods. And, as depressing as it is, Gendo is the only one in a position to do anything about it. Fuyutsuki's spineless, Yui is effectively dead, and Ritsuko can't do crap due to her own hangups about Gendo and their relationship, which I'll get to later.

However, Gendo's just in this to get Yui back. Everyone else can go to hell. And if you don't believe me, just look at his actions:

Got a son you don't know what to do with? Dump him, that won't backfire.
Competition shows up? Sabotage it and almost cause a nuke to go off.
Got a pilot trapped in an angel possessed Eva? Cripple him, nobody's gonna miss him.
Adopted cloned daughter created from a failed experiment? Make her emotionally dependent on Gendo and then clone her dozens of times so she knows she's as replaceable as a tissue.

There's more than this but you get the point. In many ways, Gendo's much, much more selfish and immature than Shinji ever was.

Now, for the other half of this rant. Shinji. Hoo boy, Shinji. Where to begin...

All of Shinji's problems in life are a direct result of his father's actions. No matter what else happened as a result of Shinji's own hangups (which I'll get to momentarily), everything else is all Gendo's fault for abandoning his son.

When Shinji shows up initially he seems almost normal. Then he gets to NERV and his father shoves him into a giant robot and all hell breaks loose. And yes, we love to make jokes about how most kids would enjoy getting to pilot a giant robot, but then you see how nightmarish the fights really are and how in over his head Shinji really is. If nothing else, Anno and company did a good job deconstructing the usual kid hero cliches and showing what a nightmare a super robot show probably would be.

Then comes one of the major sticking points with most fans: the Bardiel incident. There have been at least 5 and a half threads in recent memory that have analyzed this one to death better than I can, but I'll try anyway. Most people would argue over who was right here until the cows come home and there really isn't a right answer. Shinji doesn't want to kill the other pilot; Gendo doesn't want to lose his wife's soul. Shinji's concerns become trivial to Gendo the moment Yui was threatened. And most people ignore something very important here: the Dummy Plug.

A lot of people have pointed out the silliness of the narrative just dumping Rei and Asuka so easily, but honestly, I thought there was more to it than that. Anno and co. were doing just fine up until then; why would they suddenly get lazy here? So I thought about it and I realized that this was intentional. Gendo may be a lot of things, but he's not stupid. Why would he suddenly pick the absolute worst setup for a 3-on-1 battle against an Eva? It doesn't make sense....unless Gendo did this on purpose. That's the only answer (from an in-story perspective, anyway) that makes sense. Gendo intentionally set things up to test the Dummy Plug, and I think I finally hit upon why. Gendo wanted to be rid of his son, for good this time.

Gendo abandoned his son out of a sense of helplessness and awkwardness. He had no idea what to do with the boy when Yui died, and took the coward's way out and ditched him. That's inexcusable. I'm certain we've all heard the horror stories of what happens when a child is abandoned by their parents, especially at such an early age. Shinji's no different, and everything else aside, I honestly don't blame him for anything he says to his father. Gendo doesn't want anything to do with Shinji out of fear of hurting him, when, of course, he's actually doing just that. The Dummy Plug was just one of many excuses to ditch Shinji, for good this time.

Now, with that said, let's talk about Shinji's many, many faults. The ones that we can't blame Gendo for, anyway. Shinji's selfish, immature, hypocritical and a host of other bad things, like most real people. While he certainly isn't a pillar of moral character like most protagonists, he's meant to be someone relatable. People use that phrase like a shield whenever someone criticizes him, but all it means is that you could look at Shinji's problems and say "Oh yeah, I've been there before." That does not excuse anything, nor does that mean he's a likable protagonist. He's sympathetic, but he's also pathetic.

And let's get the cliched spineless criticism out of the way. That's all people seem to remember him for, and honestly, I think that it's sad that all people focus on is Shinji's sad inner monologues. For all his faults, at least he has an actual heart underneath all that angst. Compare to say, Asuka, who for all her labels as a Tsundere really doesn't have much of a heart underneath all that crazy bitchiness. Yet she's more popular because she [s:2duxhx5f]can fill out a bikini like no one's business[/s:2duxhx5f] actually has a "spine". Which is hilarious considering Shinji actually gained one midway through the series. But no one seems to remember that Asuka just fucking gave up on life midway through the series, but everyone gives her a free pass.

And then came EoE, and this movie was probably in hindsight a terrible idea. Because this movie is all that anyone seems to remember about Evangelion as a franchise. The mind-screw comments, the terror people associate with it, Shinji's so-called spinelessness all stem from pop-cultural osmosis from THIS FUCKING MOVIE.

Suddenly everything we thought we knew about the cast was thrown out. Shinji backslides so powerfully I'm surprised he didn't shrink into a toddler....oh wait, that happened. Suddenly he's a creepy bastard that's actually willing to masturbate over someone's comatose body...and people wonder why I say the manga has a better storyline. I've made my thoughts on the hospital scene clear before, so I'll leave that alone...but I will protest to my dying day that it was a stupid idea inserted for shock value. What could that scene have POSSIBLY told us that we didn't already know!? Asuka and Shinji have a fucked up relationship? Gee, I think they kinda beat us over the head with that one.

Ahem. Meanwhile, down in the bowels of NERV, Gendo's busy trying to end the world. And then he gropes a 14 year old girl to do it. Somehow the creepiness of this one gets conveniently forgotten. And then 3I happens.

Oh lord, 3I happens. And people immediately start shrieking that Shinji ended the world. While there's a bit of truth to that there's more to it than that. Rei handed Shinji control of the apocalypse, and Shinji decided to go through with it...or did he?

Here's where I ultimately say Shinji was better. Yes, Shinji went through with 3I (although how much control he really had is debatable. Don't lie; we all still don't really know what happened in EoE, we just have well-thought out, contradictory hypotheses), but don't forget Gendo's original goal was to do the same with Rei/Adam/Lillith. The point is, Gendo was planning on murdering 3 billion people to get his hands on Yui, and damn the consequences. And for that matter, damn whatever objections Yui might have about how Gendo's been treating their son. But I digress. Shinji, for all his faults, decided to stop Instrumentality. He decided not to run away, not to be a coward like his father, and said that yes, life is worth living. Life is worth the pain of the AT Fields. Unlike Gendo, he decided to be selfless and leave the door open for everyone who was eaten by Instrumentality to return. I realize I'm speculating a bit there, but honestly I think that's what happened. Why else would he return to life?

I don't know, maybe I'm overlooking some details. I'd like to hear some feedback to this rant. Thoughts on this?

[AuraTwilight]

Um...Gendo wasn't trying to murder 3 billion people. He is specifically criticized by SEELE for wanting to use Unit 01 as an "ark" to only temporarily house people, heavily insinuating that Gendo's version of Instrumentality would only temporarily tangify people like Shinji ended up accomplishing.

Please reconsider that aspect of your analysis.

[CyberXIII]

That's actually a very good point...but I'd just like to point out two things.

1. Gendo really doesn't care about anyone but Yui. I highly doubt he'd want anyone else intruding on his own personal happiness.

2. SEELE, as much as they like to claim that they're omniscient, really don't know what Gendo is really thinking. Oh, don't get me wrong, they're not stupid. They know they can't trust him, they just don't know what his own personal agenda really is. For all we know the "ark" thing was just for himself and Yui, and they thought he was planning on pulling some heroic stunt or something and save the world.

This is just my own opinion based on what I got out of the episodes, though. You're welcome to disagree.

[Mr. Tines]

[s]If I could track down where Reichu posted the NGE2 "Gendo Good End", then I'd link it.[/s]

The point made about EoE!Shinji vs TV!Shinji is one both NemZ and I have made often enough in the past, to no great avail.

EDIT -- here we are

Gendo Ending: Lilith leads people's souls into Eva-01. Gendo encounters Yui and Shinji -- appearing as they did in the #21 Ashinoko flashback -- sitting together on a metaphysical beach. Gendo thanks her for stuff.

Lots of other alternate endings in the same post and elsewhere on that page.

[AuraTwilight]

1. Gendo really doesn't care about anyone but Yui. I highly doubt he'd want anyone else intruding on his own personal happiness.

He also never goes out of his way to fuck over other people if it doesn't benefit him. If he can just re-embody everyone and then stay inside Unit 01 with Yui, why not? It's keeping everyone else diesembodied that intrudes on his happiness. He has to let everyone go if he wants to be alone with her.

2. SEELE, as much as they like to claim that they're omniscient, really don't know what Gendo is really thinking. Oh, don't get me wrong, they're not stupid. They know they can't trust him, they just don't know what his own personal agenda really is. For all we know the "ark" thing was just for himself and Yui, and they thought he was planning on pulling some heroic stunt or something and save the world.

Third Impact is an all or nothing deal. Gendo doesn't have the option of just releasing himself only. Everyone has to be disembodied at some point. What he does after that is another thing. But if he doesn't absorb them or fuse with them or something then they will naturally be given the option to re-embody if they want to.

So unless Gendo is deliberately trying to kill all of humanity and/or upload us to a virtual heaven of some sort, then humanity's not really going to be messed with all that much.

Like I said, Gendo's preferred Instrumentality is almost exactly what Shinji actually got, and the entire series builds Gendo and Shinji up as near-perfect old/young foils of each other, up until the very end where Shinji's final choices show he's better than his father.

[Dream]

Not to be rude, but i think you're vastly oversimplyfying the characters. Gendo's really not as bad as what you're making him out to be in that post, and your interpretation of Shinji is kind of hit-and-miss.

Aside from that, the main reason for why i wanted to post in here was to correct one little thing: Fuyutsuky is almost certainly not spineless, he stood up to Gendo when he believed he was up to some shady shit in the ep 21 flashbacks (and they both knew Gendo could have easily killed him) and the only reason he didn't try to go public with what he knew of SEELE's plans, that again would have certainly costed him his life, was that he knew it would be a pointless sacrifice and Yui and Gendo kept him from doing it. Frankly no idea of how you could think he was spineless.

[CyberXIII]

I do realize that what I posted up there really only scratches the surface of what went on between the characters in the original series. What I'm really asking is simply who was worse between the father and son. The analysis up there is really me putting my opinion out there, no more, no less.

[NemZ]

Considered responding, but decided it wasn't worth it. I've said my peace on both of them many, many times elsewhere. Short answer:

Gendo = honestly doing the best he can in a bad situation while being a barely functional wreck, including sometimes making magnificent bastard decisions for what he sees as the greater good

TV!Shinji = mostly a decent kid who screws up often but tries to make amends and has the makings of a true hero under all that self doubt.

EoE!Shinji = irredeemable piece of shit unworthy of the sacrifices others make on his behalf

[Alaska Slim]

Gendo = honestly doing the best he can in a bad situation

To get what he himself wants, f*ck whatever happens to anyone else, he doesn't care. His self-interest just happens to coincide with keeping humanity alive for a little while longer. He's single-minded, with a soft anti-humanist slant as we heard out of him while visiting the South Pole. How the latter influenced his actions, if at all, is hard to say.

Shinji's a kid, he does have some culpability, but I tend to reserve judgement for those with the life experience and maturity to know better.
His failures are equally a failure by those who were suppose to give him guidance. Growing up is hard enough for most 14-year old lads, but when you go from anti-social hermit, to the unlikely savior of mankind, feeling the weight of the collateral damage your well-intended actions brought on...

Still, fapping to Asuka? Curling in a ball as other people die to give you a chance to live? You'd deserve a good kick in the pants at the very least.

[NemZ]

Perhaps I needed to emphasize "doing the best he can", as opposed to the way someone who isn't an emotionally crippled pseudo-sociopath might play things out. But then again, as close to the edge as NERV plays it anyone less ruthless being in charge would almost certainly end up with the angels or Seele winning the game.

And before some big softie enabling apologist tries to say I should give EoE!Shinji the same benefit of the doubt, this still has to have the backstory of formerly being that decent kid from the series so I know damn well he has it in him to do much better.

[Alaska Slim]

as close to the edge as NERV plays it anyone less ruthless being in charge would almost certainly end up with the angels or Seele winning the game.

Misato herself won like what, half the battles? Rits was needed for the Eva tech, which Gendo ensured happen, I'll give you that. But then again, I'm not prepared to say that Rits is such an immoral person that she wouldn't have been drawn into doing the work anyway.

[AuraTwilight]

It doesn't matter if Misato won half the battles, because the Angels only need to win once. Guess what? Gendo's ruthlessness is the only thing that stopped Bardiel. Gendo's assholery literally saved the human race atleast in that instance.

[Stryker]

Gendo's ruthlessness is the only thing that stopped Bardiel.

Although true, it can also be said that Gendo's incompetence as a commander put him in the situation that required him to be ruthless.

SPOILER: Show

Misato: "Before I leave, Gendo, I think it is important for you to know something.

Gendo: "Go on."

Misato: "One on One is completely futile against angels."

Gendo: "Why didn't I think of doing that! Perfect way to demonstrate my assholery!"

Misato: "What?"

Gendo: "Dismissed."

[NemZ]

Misato herself won like what, half the battles?

Sure, but would a less ruthless commander have allowed someone as tactically reckless, chaotic in her private life and with a history of traumatic mental instability directly related to the angels anywhere near this mutli-trillion dollar operation? I think he picked her specifically because she was just fucked up enough that she would consider intentionally placing children into active combat zones piloting equipment with a recorded propensity to kill or drive insane it's operator even while in lab conditions a valid strategy.

[Kendrix]

They both get too much hate, really.

And I don't think you can really say that one is worse than the others - Gendo has some virtues that Shinji doesn't have (Rebuild, in particular, goes great leghts to accentuate that there's something that Shinji can actually learn from him) and Shinji has some virtues Gendo doesn't have, while their flaws are pretty much the same.

Of course, Yui is more important than anything else in the world to him, but in Gendo's mindset, there isn't any actual conflict there - certain lines in both versions of ep 25 ("Because it's the only way to live" / "Death creates nothing") make it very clear that he genuinely thinks that his plan is the only way for humanity to have a future, he really thinks he's saving the world from SEELE and he's in no way deliberately cruel, but just extremely pragmatic.
He applies the same cold logic to himself - He's not above doing the dirty work himself (ep 11), or offering his own body to the cause (Fucking the Akagis to ensure their loyalty, getting that hideous adam emrbyo thing implanted... )

[AuraTwilight]

It's worth drawing to light that when Yui first met Gendo, he was basically exactly like Shinji and only changed because of her presence in his life. If we remove the Third Impact-related things from his life and let Shinji grow up into an adult with no moral support, he'll probably become his father 1:1.

The main thing that sets the two apart is there circumstances...EXCEPT for the very end of the series where Shinji makes the decision Gendo never would, and he had to be goaded into it for over an hour.

[Alaska Slim]

It doesn't matter if Misato won half the battles, because the Angels only need to win once.

And they almost did, episode 19, his own ego about his son almost doomed them all.

There, Gendo wasn't responsible for the victory, it was Shinji and his mother's soul, as well as Kaji who gave Shinji the advice he should have gotten from his father.

Making hard calls? The military does that all the time, I can think of three brutal "friendly fire" instances out of the Korean War off the top of my head that needed to happen, that just brings on the question why they aren't the ones running things, or at least someone with that background...

Oh right, trained military personnel tend to have moral touchstones, and if they had any inkling of what SEELE was really doing, they would have worked to counter it as Misato herself did... meh.

[CJD]

All of Shinji's problems in life are a direct result of his father's actions. No matter what else happened as a result of Shinji's own hangups (which I'll get to momentarily), everything else is all Gendo's fault for abandoning his son.

Agree with the former, on the fence about the latter. Mostly my issue is with the meaning of the word "fault" and how it should be dealt out, where the buck stops, and to what extent we're really all just a product of our parents. The reality is that we have no "choice," every decision we make is predetermined by our past and our perceptions of it. So where does the buck stop? I'll defend Shinji till my death because he is a product of Gendo's failings as a parent, but what about Gendo then? Who failed Gendo to turn him into what he is? And is that person then responsible for Gendo, and consequently Shinji?

In the end Shinji made some bad decisions, but Shinji was screwed up. Gendo made some bad decisions, but Gendo was also screwed up. I want to say Gendo was worse because I feel like he was, but I have a lot of trouble defending that choice if we're going to accept that a lot of Shinji's faults are a result of Gendo's failings. At best I can say that Gendo's failure to Shinji, as his parent, is of a higher caliber of failure, that the duty of a parent is sacrosanct, and Gendo failed in his duty.

So I thought about it and I realized that this was intentional. Gendo may be a lot of things, but he's not stupid. Why would he suddenly pick the absolute worst setup for a 3-on-1 battle against an Eva? It doesn't make sense....unless Gendo did this on purpose. That's the only answer (from an in-story perspective, anyway) that makes sense. Gendo intentionally set things up to test the Dummy Plug, and I think I finally hit upon why. Gendo wanted to be rid of his son, for good this time.

An interesting theory, but if true Gendo's still stupid. The dummy plug could still have been tested if they had utilized a better battle plan, so the gauntlet was unnecessary. You say he didn't want to lose Yui, well he almost did. If he planned the gauntlet he literally risked Yui's life on a brand new system that had no field testing.

[Lurkis]

TV!Shinji = mostly a decent kid who screws up often but tries to make amends and has the makings of a true hero under all that self doubt.

EoE!Shinji = irredeemable piece of shit unworthy of the sacrifices others make on his behalf

I get that this isn't entirely what you are saying here but the way you posted it reminds me of something I would like to bring up. I am sick of people referencing NGE Shinji and EoE Shinji like they are two different people. Stating how one isn't all that bad while the other is horrible.

I think some people have to remember to include NGE Characters when describing EoE Characters in order to see how some people developed to that end point. For Example, Shinji completely breaking down and not caring about anyone. Stand alone yes it is horrible, looking back and NGE and how he got there, I would probably be in the same boat.

Overall I really don't think Shinji was in the wrong with anything he did (some minor things sure). In the overall scheme of things, the way he behaves and his choices can really all be pinned on how he was treated by Gendo and others around him growing up, followed by the stresses of being an Eva pilot. It's not like he is a bad person at heart.

[Jornophelanthas]

In my opinion, Gendo does not care only for Yui. He also loves Shinji, but in a way that is barely recognizable as such.

During Gendo's final scene in EoE, he states that he deserves punishment for failing Shinji. Shinji, not Yui. His final line is: "Please forgive me, Shinji", as his transition guide in the guise of Yui/Unit-01 brutally punishes him.

This betrays that Gendo had Shinji's best interests at heart, at least in theory, which is to reunite Shinji with both his parents in a very specific way His biggest fault is that Shinji never had a say in what Gendo considered to be in Shinji's best interest.
- Gendo honestly believed that abandoning Shinji after Yui's disappearance would be best for Shinji, because he did not believe himself to be a capable parent or a good influence on Shinji in his own mental devastation.
- Gendo repeatedly (and very indirectly) voiced his expectation that Shinji should be just like him. (Not "become", "be"!) When he summoned Shinji in episode 1, he expected Shinji to be as ruthless in battle as he was in the boardroom. When he praised Shinji's piloting, he expressed his appreciation that Shinji performed just as he had expected him to. In effect, Gendo treated Shinji as he treated himself: a piece of the master plan that would bring Yui back into the world, that could take as much punishment as was required.
- Gendo also implicitly assumed that Shinji was automatically on board with every decision he made, and with every hardship put in his way, because he implicitly assumed that Shinji wanted Yui back just as much as he did. Never mind that Shinji had no knowledge of the master plan. All Shinji needed to know was that a boy needs his mother, and that father knows best.
- During his final scene, it is heavily implied (but not spoken aloud) that Gendo did it all for Shinji, because his intention was to reunite his family within the ark of Lilith. Which included Shinji. Gendo wanted to usurp Rei's role in the Giant Naked Lilith, by merging Adam's and Lilith's souls both within his own body (which is why he gropes Rei: he's looking to take her soul inside of him), and then merging with the crucified giant HIMSELF, so that he can become a greater god than SEELE ever imagined themselves to be. This would allow him to scoop up the souls of Yui and Shinji into himself (since Shinji and Unit-01 are already nearly a single being), where they would be together forever as a single immortal little family with untold divine power. All while being impervious to anything SEELE or anyone else could throw against him, and with the ability to reshape the world in his image as an afterthought.

Yes, that last one is mostly speculation, but consistent with Gendo's behaviour throughout NGE and EoE.

Gendo treats Shinji as a disposable pilot, because he would actually prefer not to use Shinji as a pilot at all. Ideally, he would have kept Shinji on the sideline while his plan went down. Unfortunately, he is short a pilot during an Angel attack in the first episode, and the Shinji/Yui combination consistently outperforms all alternatives. And realizing the plan to reunite Yui, Shinji and himself in Instrumentality is (in his mind) more important than exposing Shinji to the bad parental influence he exudes.

Until the Bardiel incident. At that stage, Gendo has two considerations. First, he is sorely disappointed that Shinji does not live up to his own standards (i.e. is not as ruthless and dedicated as Gendo himself). And secondly, he sees the possibility to replace Shinji with the dummy plug (because it outperformed the boy). This would allow him to continue with the rest of his plan without Shinji as a pilot, to send Shinji back to the old teacher for the last few months, and to no longer expose the boy to his bad parenting. He is disappointed as a parent, but he still believes it's in Shinji's best interest.

What is perhaps the saddest part about Gendo is not that he apologized to Shinji not for mistreating him, but for failing. By failing to execute his plan, he put Shinji through all hell without realizing the reward for all that sacrifice. Gendo was perfectly willing to make all those sacrifices himself and fail, but he believed that he failed Shinji by not delivering on all the unwilling sacrifices he forced Shinji to make.

And Gendo's biggest failing is that he consistently sees Shinji as the abstract ideas of "mine and Yui's flesh and blood" and "my son, who is a younger version of me", instead of seeing Shinji as a person in his own right. His final apology indcates that he may (perhaps) have developed some empathy for Shinji's point of view. Too little, too late, though.

In my opinion, Gendo is more altruistic than the OP gives him credit for. He is motivated by (abstract) love for his family (not just the desire to possess his wife). Too bad that his entire amster plan is just a façade to cover his own hedgehog's dilemma. He has been "running away" ever since Yui vanished, and only realizes that he has been doing so at the very end, when he had already lost it all.

What makes Shinji a better person than Gendo is the fact that Shinji can stop running away, and ultimately chooses to do so during Instrumentality.