Sequel theory once again.

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Merkaba » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:30 pm

This will be my last off-topic post here, but why is it that 50 percent of the people on this forum sound like assholes 100 percent of the time? It's like you guys never learned how to be decent toward people with ideas different than yours.
I don't want to sound cliche, but it definitely seems as though it's a case of I'm-a-big-boy-when-I'm-sitting-behind-a-computer. In the real world, if you guys constantly acted the way you do on here, you'd have no friends.
On second thought, maybe that's why you guys are always on anime forums, arguing with people half your age. Hmmm...

On-topic:
Whether or not it proves to be false, Sequel Theory is fun to speculate over, and I don't understand why people who are so against bother to click on, read and contribute to the topic.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:36 pm

View Original PostMerkaba wrote:This will be my last off-topic post here, but why is it that 50 percent of the people on this forum sound like assholes 100 percent of the time?


What is it with you and the ad hominems? As we noted the last time you tried this trick the only one being an asshole here is you. You presented your argument, it was rebutted, and now you're resorting to name-calling and whining because you didn't get your way. That's not cool, dude.

As for being on an anime forum: it's called a hobby. Adults do have them, you know. You might also do some math and note I was exactly your age when NGE came out. So what, am I supposed to suddenly lose interest when I hit a magic age? What age might that be, hmmm? Better tell Tines, someone forgot to send him the memo! :rolleyes:

What does age have to do with it, anyway? Am I not supposed to treat you like an adult just 'cause you're younger than I am? I would think you'd want to be taken seriously and have your arguments judged accordingly.

Whether or not it proves to be false, Sequel Theory is fun to speculate over, and I don't understand why people who are so against bother to click on, read and contribute to the topic.


Because spreading misinformation is lame. It's fun to speculate about stuff that's unknown, but when we have evidence that says "okay, that isn't the way things are" it's time to move on. Shockingly, some of us want this forum to be useful instead of just mindless regurgitation of stuff that's already been dealt with a dozen times in the past.
Last edited by Bagheera on Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby qu4d » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:39 pm

No one is being an asshole here, you just avoid answering a simple question and making snippy comments without thinking at all.

I dont know the exact answer and I dont give any - so it can not make no sense. Which is your argument for being right...

And then LOL - trying to provoke now? Mimimi youre on an anime forum. Who cares? Is that supposed to be an argument? Youre here as well... whos to judge?

And regarding NME being a sequel: I think its possible and I actually like the idea of NME being one... still, it needs a logic to rely on.

Your turn.

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Postby Lurkis » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:03 pm

After reading the past few pages I have felt deep remorse in opening this topic back up. People need to learn to get along and be nice regardless of what they believe about sequel theory.

I would also like to make a remark to the white chalk outline. Hoping so much it can later be connected as one of the Adams :3 That would be awesome.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:36 pm

View Original PostNa7e wrote:He doesn't have too. The argument that the chalk outlines are a point toward the sequel theory has been rebuttled. Supplemental materials point to them being the remains from second impact, which is notably different in this continuity. And, we even see Misato's perspective of what occurred at ground zero.

Except the Second Impact itself could be the linking point of sequel theories. We saw something about this Second Impact but it was way more confusing compared to what we saw in NGE, it could have caused a dimensional quake or some other SF BS like that for what we know.

Anyway, rebutting others' arguments with two lines remarks about their presumed lack of logic can be perceived as offensive or at least it gives a "holier-than-thou" impression. I know that these topics have been discussed countless times and I also recently read that some people don't like how some "sequelists" are absolutely certain of their theory (the opposite is also true though, some people here reject it almost without a second thought) but this shouldn't give a free pass to insult others.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:18 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Anyway, rebutting others' arguments with two lines remarks about their presumed lack of logic can be perceived as offensive or at least it gives a "holier-than-thou" impression. I know that these topics have been discussed countless times and I also recently read that some people don't like how some "sequelists" are absolutely certain of their theory (the opposite is also true though, some people here reject it almost without a second thought) but this shouldn't give a free pass to insult others.


How is it insulting to note an argument's logic isn't sound? And why is it the people typically griping about being nice and courteous to people are the ones most likely to toss around insults? No one said anything all that awful to Merkaba before he made his last post, and yet here you are acting like sequel opponents are being rude and insulting. Well, I got news for you. This:

Merkaba wrote:This will be my last off-topic post here, but why is it that 50 percent of the people on this forum sound like assholes 100 percent of the time? It's like you guys never learned how to be decent toward people with ideas different than yours.


is incredibly insulting. It was also entirely unprovoked. The worst he got before that point was qu4d telling him he wasn't using logic, and then he's calling us assholes and going on about how sad our lives are and how pathetic we are for debating with him. And yet here you are saying his opponents are the ones being insulting. How does that even begin to make sense to you?

Here's a tip for everyone who's griping about people's lack of courtesy: if you want it, give it, and don't wait for others to go first. Show some grace when people disagree with you, and make a point of doing it especially when you feel insulted, and that will go a long way toward showing you have the class that warrants the respect you so desperately crave. As soon as you get into a tit-for-tat mentality you lose, and so does everyone else.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:30 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:How is it insulting to note an argument's logic isn't sound?

I don't even want to enter in this argument with you considering the last events, noting that someone else's argument was intolerant apparently had a different effect.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:43 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I don't even want to enter in this argument with you considering the last events, noting that someone else's argument was intolerant apparently had a different effect.


It is no sin to be intolerant of bad logic. Tolerance is called for in matters of opinion -- shipping arguments, discussions of Yui's character, questions about why the characters did what they did, and so on. It is not called for in matters of simple fact and reason -- when we have evidence telling us explicitly that a given item originated within the setting for specific reasons it is not reasonable to claim it's evidence for a sequel. There's no call for tolerance there, because even entertaining the idea is unreasonable.

Now, Kaworu's words? Mucho tolerance needed there. They're ambiguous, and they could mean all sorts of things. That means there's lots of room for different sorts of opinions on the matter. But that doesn't apply to the chalk outline.

Or the red oceans.

Or the blood on the moon.

Or most of the other evidence offered as proof of a sequel. These arguments employ bad logic, and calling it out as such is entirely appropriate. Claiming people are being rude or insulting because they do so is disingenuous and inappropriate.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:58 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Tolerance is called for in matters of opinion

Don't tell me...
View Original PostBagheera wrote:But that doesn't apply to the chalk outline.

It does apply, like I said before, because we don't know the exact dynamics of NME's Second Impact, it could be related to some kind of dimensional mess for example. You're welcome to think that it's cheap SF but I don't see any reason to exclude it completely for now.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:06 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:It does apply like I said before because we don't know the exact dynamics of NME's Second Impact, it could be related to some kind of dimensional mess for example. You're welcome to think that it's cheap SF but I don't see any reason to exclude it completely for now.


Okay, let me put it this way: what in the movies has given you reason to suspect something like that might be at work? I'm not asking for a just-so story to justify wishful thinking here; I'm asking for something we've seen that suggests the new movies might be linked to the original work in some fashion. Far as I can tell the only thing we've seen thus far is Kaworu's line. That's it. But as we've seen upthread that's something most Japanese would (apparently) read in a quite prosaic fashion -- "Now I'll make you happy" or some such. So if that's not on the table what's left? What in the movies says we should think about it in the fashion you describe?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:13 pm

Personally I justify it exclusively from Kaworu's words right now, I used to think that there could be other hints (the outline, red oceans and whatnot) but now I can at best think of them as possible consequences in case NME were really a sequel, they can also be explained in other ways, as people there suggested in the past; I'm not convinced by the other explanations of Kaworu's words instead.
In fact I'm not saying that the outline is an irrefutable proof of some kind of sequel theory but that it can be explained under the assumption that NME is some kind of sequel, an assumption that I make on the basis of Kaworu's words.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:But as we've seen upthread that's something most Japanese would (apparently) read in a quite prosaic fashion -- "Now I'll make you happy" or some such.

Japanese can read it in the "sequelist" way as well, judging from the doujins that I've seen.
View Original PostBagheera wrote: So if that's not on the table what's left?

But who said that that's not on the table?
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:21 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I personally justify it exclusively from Kaworu's words right now, I used to think that there could be other hints (the outline, red oceans and whatnot) but now I can at best think of them as possible consequences in case NME were really a sequel, they can also be explained in other ways, as people there suggested in the past;


The real problem there is that they don't work as such when you think things through. If you assume someone reset the clock (leaving aside the fact that we have no reason to think the Seeds can do things like that) there's no reason that evidence would still be around -- it would vanish just like everyone's memories of NGE. If you assume the new movies take place after NGE chronologically you have to explain how everything was restored to the way it was and why no one remembers NGE. There are some vary basic, utterly intractable problems with either route, and that's why we reject the notion out of hand.

That's not to say there aren't other ways to look at it; the new movies could easily be an AU, or an Instrumentality phantom, or any number of other things (as I've noted myself in this and other threads). But none of these would involve the "evidence" presented for the sequel theory, apart from Kaworu's words. Yes, there are other ways of looking at things -- this is where your tolerance comes in -- but that doesn't change the fact that the arguments presented for the sequel theory are bad. AU? Possibly. Some crazy shit involving Kaworu? Sure. Sequel, as in something that came after? No.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby qu4d » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:05 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:In fact I'm not saying that the outline is an irrefutable proof of some kind of sequel theory but that it can be explained under the assumption that NME is some kind of sequel, an assumption that I make on the basis of Kaworu's words.


Bagheera already stated it perfectly: How could the remains of NGE be in NME when everything else was being reset? The building were all build up, the people were there again etc etc...

People often see these visual throwbacks and immediatly scream SEQUEL without thinking how this would work. Blood on the moon? Even if we didnt know that it was 2I-related, assuming it was from EoE never made sense.

The blood-red ocean? In 2.22 it was even stated that the ocean was blue before and people remember that and some people STILL see this as evidence. Come on...

And Im not holier than anybody, but at least I TRY to come up with an explanation for a sequel-method.

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Postby Lurkis » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:48 am

If NME is a sequel then something had to have happened after EoE to reset the universe to where it is now. Perhaps whatever event caused this wasn't perfect and as a result some physical elements remained.

Heck, perhaps NME is a parallel universe and the second impact with 4 Adams was Shinji, Asuka, Rei, and Kaworu crossing over (Im just making stuff up on the spot now x3)

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Postby qu4d » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:30 am

View Original PostLurkis wrote:If NME is a sequel then something had to have happened after EoE to reset the universe to where it is now.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
followed by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch
followed by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
followed by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch
followed by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
and on and on and on...

No need for any "magic" to happen.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:05 am

Well, at least the combo between me and Bagheera has been broken.

Anyway, sequel and alternate universe are one and the same as far as I'm concerned, I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one who watched Eureka Seven AO during the last anime season, it's a perfect example of sequel that isn't set in the same universe but a parallel one which has been linked to the one of the original series, yet it's also chronologically a sequel.
I never said anything about a reset of the universe, I don't even understand why you guys are brining up this argument to begin with.
View Original Postqu4d wrote:And Im not holier than anybody, but at least I TRY to come up with an explanation for a sequel-method.

Sure, it only almost looked like you were trolling him from short remarks like "Logic, still not used." and "Come on, you dont even try...", a lot of people won't get in the mood of trying to explain themselves if you tease them in this way.
View Original Postqu4d wrote:No need for any "magic" to happen.

Implying that SF fiction does have to follow the (currently accepted) rules of our universe. If it were the case then humans should have followed regular evolution instead of being offspring of some ancient aliens in NGE. It's an anime, "magic" can happen all the times.
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:11 am

View Original Postqu4d wrote:No need for any "magic" to happen.
Pressing the cosmic reset button destroys any of the linkage that you'd normally expect from the word "sequel".
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:46 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I never said anything about a reset of the universe, I don't even understand why you guys are brining up this argument to begin with.


You might have noticed that 1.11 replays the events of the show almost exactly.

Sure, it only almost looked like you were trolling him from short remarks like "Logic, still not used." and "Come on, you dont even try...", a lot of people won't get in the mood of trying to explain themselves if you tease them in this way.


You're confusing cause with effect. Merkaba never put forth any effort to explain anything -- he just said "well, what about the chalk outline, huh?" and then when people explained it he got holier-than-thou. He then proceeded to name-calling when people called him on that.

Implying that SF fiction does have to follow the (currently accepted) rules of our universe. If it were the case then humans should have followed regular evolution instead of being offspring of some ancient aliens in NGE. It's an anime, "magic" can happen all the times.


I'll ask again: do we have any reason to think this is the case in the NME? You brought up ES AO, and that show's a good example of what I'm talking about -- it's pretty clear from the outset that it's a different timeline, and the links between the two are established fairly early on. Where are those sorts of links in the NME?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:06 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You might have noticed that 1.11 replays the events of the show almost exactly.

I still didn't mention anything about it nor I have the impression someone else said something about a reset recently in this discussion. It's not a good idea to jump to conclusions and make implications where there are none.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:You're confusing cause with effect. Merkaba never put forth any effort to explain anything -- he just said "well, what about the chalk outline, huh?" and then when people explained it he got holier-than-thou. He then proceeded to name-calling when people called him on that.

No, he didn't start doing that until qu4d started replying with smirking twitter-like posts. It's true that Merkaba didn't truly elaborate his point but there could have been better ways to point that out, you did so, qu4d didn't give me the same impression.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:I'll ask again: do we have any reason to think this is the case in the NME? You brought up ES AO, and that show's a good example of what I'm talking about -- it's pretty clear from the outset that it's a different timeline, and the links between the two are established fairly early on. Where are those sorts of links in the NME?

Do you expect that Evangelion will ever be clear and nicely point out all the linking and put everything on the table since the beginning? Really?
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:47 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I still didn't mention anything about it nor I have the impression someone else said something about a reset recently in this discussion. It's not a good idea to jump to conclusions and make implications where there are none.


What conclusions? The movie replays events from the show. How do you even begin to explain that as a sequel without some sort of reset?

No, he didn't start doing that until qu4d started replying with smirking twitter-like posts. It's true that Merkaba didn't truly elaborate his point but there could have been better ways to point that out, you did so, qu4d didn't give me the same impression.


His response wasn't the best, but you're being highly selective in your criticism here (and I still find it aggravating that you're talking about people being polite and such while giving the the worst offender a free pass -- it's not okay just because a guy on your side of the debate's doing it!).

Do you expect that Evangelion will ever be clear and nicely point out all the linking and put everything on the table since the beginning? Really?


I expect evidence, which has always been readily abundant in Evangelion. We had indications of what was going on in the show's finale in the first two episodes, and if a sequel were in play I'd expect indications of such. Instead you're saying "well, it could happen" without showing me anything in the movies to indicate that that's what's going on. Again, you brought up ES AO, and look at how things were structured there: "oh hey, this is an alternate timeline", "oh hey, this is the child of the protagonists from the previous series", "oh hey, there's a mechanic for changing timelines", "oh hey, we see that happen during the course of the show". Yeah, the NME isn't done yet, but we see indications of this very early on in ES AO and that show does not replay the events of the original series. Given that the NME is explicitly a retelling of the events of NGE why would you assume it's a sequel?

Again, an AU is a possibility. But a sequel? Why? How? Make an actual case for it rather than just claiming it's possible.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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