Shinji needs to grow something, does he?

[Reichu]

Here's a pet peeve I've been harboring for a while. For some reason, the majority of the Anglosphere seems chronically incapable of discussing Shinji Ikari without making constant reference to testes and vertebrae. I refer, of course, to statements like these (all mined from the forum):

"Plus, even IF Shinji wasn't being spineless and had tried to save Asuka (...)"
"Step two: Grow Shinji an inkling of spine, (...)"
"[NME] Shinji is Shinji... The only difference is that he grows a backbone and for the first time on his life begins thinking on himself..."
"However, I will say that Shinji does need a backbone and (...)"
"Having Shinji grow mental strength and a bit of a backbone; instead of stunting his grow at any turn (...)"
"[Manga] Shinji has a sembelance of a backbone most of the time."

And even worse than the constant references to Shinji's state of vertebral development is this:

This entire thread
"Shinji got the balls and finally did something for [him]self? Rei was rescued?"
"Would you agree with me that Shinji has more balls and Asuka is not a complete bitch [in NME]?"
"Shinji actually showing balls, telling to someone else 'cheer up emo kid' and Rei giving a honest smile. "
"Just when did Shitji (sic) grow balls?"

And so on.

Now, as far as most people are concerned, I'm sure these are mere turns of phrase and nothing "deeper" is intended... but they're so persistently used that they've become utterly vacuous and trite. What is really meant here? What does it mean for Shinji, or anyone else, to have a "spine", or -- ugh -- "balls"?

I should note that the "balls" thing is actually offensive. It imparts immense metaphorical value to the male gonads that is, in fact, not male-specific at all. When a guy is told to "grow some balls" or "man up" (another phrase frequently shot Shinji's way), what are you asking of him? To be more assertive and confident (without being an unreasonable asshole about it), perhaps? To be more responsible and mature? Is that, indeed, the gist of it? If so... are these not traits that would be equally desirable in females? And if so... why not use phrases that don't reference anatomy only half of the species possess? (And if not.... why the fuck not?)

So, what do you think? Is it possible to talk about Shinji without recourse to these rhetorical cliches? Just why ARE people so preoccupied with the state of his spinal column and gonads...?

[arkiel]

I should note that the "balls" thing is actually offensive. It imparts immense metaphorical value to the male gonads that is, in fact, not male-specific at all.

Except Shinji IS a boy. The phrase "grow some balls" in context is not suggesting that a person without balls (a girl person) can automatically become assertive and other metrics of "macho" if that person were to obtain balls. Shinji already has balls. The phrase just signals that he, technically, has all the wiring to act like a man, so wouldn't it just be wonderful if he could get on with that?

And before we get into a whole "thing," "being a man" here is an abstract ideal specific to Shinji.

It's also a way to cover characterizing Shinji as a self-insert character in fanfiction.

Just why ARE people so preoccupied with the state of his spinal column and gonads...?

It's just part of the community lexicon. It's a meme.

[The Eva Monkey]

[DELETED]

I'm sorry.

[Reichu]

I'm sorry, too. (Replying with an image macro is not appropriate behavior here, least of all for our admins.)

[JoeD80]

Now, as far as most people are concerned, I'm sure these are mere turns of phrase and nothing "deeper" is intended... but they're so persistently used that they've become utterly vacuous and trite. What is really meant here? What does it mean for Shinji, or anyone else, to have a "spine", or -- ugh -- "balls"?

I should note that the "balls" thing is actually offensive.

I dunno, it's a pretty common phrase, in English and Japanese. I've heard the phrase addressed to both men and women. It's kind of an odd one considering it's actually a vulnerable part of the body.

[KnightmareX13]

I really don't think there is any way to avoid the gender discrimination with saying so and so has balls unless you use something like guts or nads

[The Eva Monkey]

I'm sorry, too. (Replying with an image macro is not appropriate behavior here, least of all for our admins.)

[Der Kommissar]

It's just an English lexicon thing.

More annoying to me is that those complaints ignore the usually pretty fucking impressive heroism Shinji engages in the vast majority of the time, despite being a conscripted mentally ill fourteen-year-old.

[Lorkhan]

Because ovarian fortitude never caught on.

On that note, I have noticed the phrases like big brass balls and all the like have been slung around for both genders as of late, albeit the phrase mostly crops up when there's a male is attached to the subject matter.

[Reichu]

More annoying to me is that those complaints ignore the usually pretty fucking impressive heroism Shinji engages in the vast majority of the time, despite being a conscripted mentally ill fourteen-year-old.

Indeed, part of the reason I find these memes so annoying is that they embody careless misinterpretation / mass Flanderization of the character. I could have framed my OP a bit better...

It's just an English lexicon thing.

I do find it a little interesting that the unisex "guts" ("s/he's got guts") doesn't have much lingual momentum presently, while the intrinsically male-specific "balls" is outta control...

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

More annoying to me is that those complaints ignore the usually pretty fucking impressive heroism Shinji engages in the vast majority of the time, despite being a conscripted mentally ill fourteen-year-old.

People that complain about that want a idealistic hero not the realistic hero that Shinji represents.

[KingXanaduu]

People that complain about that want a idealistic hero not the realistic hero that Shinji represents.

Which is exactly the problem that type of stereotyping has ruined the definition of a "Hero" can be.

When an audience want's to think of a "Hero", they prefer to think of the typical muscle-bound, gun-slinging, Micheal Bay explosion tossing badasses perforated by the action genre, which probably the biggest example would be the "Expendables":

SPOILER: Show

Which has more Testosterone than a Texan Slaughterhouse.

People don't want to face the realism that heroes in the real world have to face as well as the mental trauma. People look towards these action "Heroes" as a form of escape from the harsh grimness of reality and REAL battle.

That's probably one of the reasons why people are so negative to Shinji's character, they don't want to always face the real truth of what war can be, especially in a cartoon.

[CJD]

Wait, are we trying to figure out what "Grow some balls" and "man up" means or are we trying to figure out why people think Shinji needs to do it?


Either way, I think Shinji does need to "Grow some balls" in that he needs to be more assertive and not run away as often as he does, even if he does come back. That's a psychological issue for him, though. Gendo couldn't just channel a summon spell and get Kamina to come punch Shinji and give him a speech and expect that to turn Shinji "into a man". Shinji's issues are much deeper than self pity or fear, he's traumatized and he needs help to get through it. So while I agree that he needs to "man up", it's much more complex than "Just stop acting like a pussy".

[aboose]

I do find it a little interesting that the unisex "guts" ("s/he's got guts") doesn't have much lingual momentum presently, while the intrinsically male-specific "balls" is outta control...

As an ex-naughty-word-abuser, I go out of my way to avoid dropping vulgarity unless I can't help it, and I never was too fond of the "grow a pair" phenomenon, but I'd say guts is out for the count because aside from "he has no guts" or "she's got guts," the term is hard to manipulate (would you say "get some guts" or even "you have no guts"? Feels unnatural).

Anyway, if any of you guys find a great replacement for the term "grow a pair," let me know. I've personally been using spineless for a while now.

[MugwumpHasNoLiver]

I do find it a little interesting that the unisex "guts" ("s/he's got guts") doesn't have much lingual momentum presently, while the intrinsically male-specific "balls" is outta control...

You know men, sexcakes. Their entire concept of self-identity revolves around not being emasculated. The male is essentially a disposable consumer product indoctrinated from birth to act out the role of stoic protector and since Shinji fails so spectacularly in that regard, it's no wonder his anatomy is called into question, as men have that funny habit of tangling up their codes of ethics in a pair of low hanging glands. A lack of intestinal fortitude doesn't sting as much, because both men and women have entrails and their absence doesn't lead to sexual uselessness, decreased aggression and lack of ascribed maleness in general. It means... What? You can't digest food good? Way to go, you not fat person. There's not really a direct female comparison, because you don't see women ascribing the entirety of their behavioural psychology on tits or clits. I suppose the only comparable slur is accusing a bitchy chick of being on her rag. Maybe if they're really freaky they can say "I'm ovulating" and give you a knowing look before rushing off to the bedroom, but how often does that actually happen?

Not sure about the spine business, though. You don't see vertebrates desperately trying to distance themselves from the invertebrate other.

[Bagheera]

More annoying to me is that those complaints ignore the usually pretty fucking impressive heroism Shinji engages in the vast majority of the time, despite being a conscripted mentally ill fourteen-year-old.

This. For being such a "spineless" character he sure gets in the damn robot and saves humanity an awful lot.

Me, I'd like to see these "grow some balls" or "grow a spine" types would react in Shinji's situation, and how they'd actually try to deal with piloting a robot that tortures them or with a mentally unstable 13-year-old girl. And when they crumble like the weaklings they are, or make the situation worse than Shinji ever did, I'd like to say I'd laugh, but I couldn't because it'd be too damn sad.

[CJD]

This. For being such a "spineless" character he sure gets in the damn robot and saves humanity an awful lot.

Me, I'd like to see these "grow some balls" or "grow a spine" types would react in Shinji's situation, and how they'd actually try to deal with piloting a robot that tortures them or dealing with a mentally unstable 13-year-old girl. And when they crumble like the weaklings they are, or make the situation worse than Shinji ever did, I'd like to say I'd laugh, but I couldn't because it'd be too damn sad.

That "Tortures them" is a key part I think a lot of people either forget or don't pick up on: The whole feeling what the robot feels stuff. I think a lot of people don't fully grasp that and if they did they'd probably better understand his predicament.

[esselfortium]

Shinji has a lot of guts; he does far more unquestionably heroic things throughout NGE than most people writing about him will do in their entire lives. That the stress and trauma eventually overcome him doesn't negate that.

As an ex-naughty-word-abuser, I go out of my way to avoid dropping vulgarity unless I can't help it, and I never was too fond of the "grow a pair" phenomenon, but I'd say guts is out for the count because aside from "he has no guts" or "she's got guts," the term is hard to manipulate (would you say "get some guts" or even "you have no guts"? Feels unnatural).

I sure as hell would.

[Mr. Tines]

This plays into Anno's "a nation of children" narrative, but what I think Shinji needs to grow is "up". Great responsibilities have been forced on him, at an age that only recently is still considered childhood; and only once does he actually articulate comprehension of the fact -- and then in the context of a "fuck you" to his father.

The reluctant wimp as hero is a common enough motif, even if unashamedly done for self-insert purposes at times -- but is usually accompanied by some recognition of what has happened.

[Dream]

Actually, i always found the balls thing to be somewhat offensive too (One of the many reasons i loved NGE was because it had a non-manly heroic main character), and like has been said previously it would be extremely short-sighted to say or think that Shinji was just an spineless wimp, pretty much the entire series disproves that. Personally i think the main reason for why people say Shinji lacks balls is because he really doesn't act like a hero even when he does heroic things (And even then, i imagine some people could say he does it for all the wrong reasons), it's far from an accusation of being uncool however, i think.

And of course it's not like many of his accusers have saved/redeemed humanity around 17 times in a row, so they're not exactly ones to speak