Meaning behind Keel's last lines in EoE?

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
Brofose
Embryo
Age: 33
Posts: 5
Joined: May 07, 2012
Location: Maine
Gender: Male

Meaning behind Keel's last lines in EoE?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Brofose » Sat May 26, 2012 2:19 am

Keel: "The beginning and ending share the same moment. Good. Everything's going well"

What exactly does he mean by this? The version of Instrumentality that went down wasn't Seele's, and it's never really explained why he's ok with it.

The strangest part of his lines is the "beginning and ending share the same moment."

If the line is taken in context of the series itself, could he be referring to the ghostly long distance visions of Rei that Shinji sees in both the first and last moments of the series? This seems unlikely because Rei seems to be a bit of a wild card to Seele. I doubt they included a quantum mechanics bending clonegirl timestalking Shinji in their plans.

A less meta but much crazier answer could be that he's talking about time itself. The ending of EoE being the same as the beginning of 1.11, which would feed into/confirm the theory that the rebuild series is a direct continuation of the tv series. Sort of like the ending of that well known book series, time keeps repeating itself until the "correct" timeline works itself out. Not naming it becauseof spoilers, but I'm sure a bunch of you know what I'm referring to.

Thoughts?

SenorSquiid
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 353
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Location: Hoosierland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SenorSquiid » Sat May 26, 2012 7:09 am

Brofose!

You found me!
fnord

---
I will never stop trashing Magma Diver.
Ever.

Brofose
Embryo
Age: 33
Posts: 5
Joined: May 07, 2012
Location: Maine
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Brofose » Sat May 26, 2012 7:14 am

View Original PostSenorSquiid wrote:Brofose!

You found me!


Not on purpose, sir, I assure you!

Our interests just happen to overlap, we're both super into animus and autistic manchilds!

Dream
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3284
Joined: Dec 08, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dream » Sat May 26, 2012 9:53 am

I hope it doesn't bother if i post in here, and just to clarify, i don't really know much about these parts of the series, and most of this is just both my opinion and gut feeling, but...

Why he's saying "Good. Everything is good" (At least that's how the subtitle was in my version) Even tough the instrumentality isn't SEELE's version... Well, i'm sure there are many possibilities but the only one i can't think of (And that i frankly doubt) Is that he doesn't know that Instrumentality isn't going according to SEELE's scenario. Sure, it's Shinji who's directing the thing, but i doubt that Keel (or anyone actually) would have though that he would end up rejecting instrumentality, it might not have been the best thing, but it wasn't that different anyway. At least that's what i think. Aside from that i guess he just was commenting about the concept of instrumentality in general to add a vital line in the Komm Susser Todd scene, As much as for the movie as for himself.

"The beggining and the ending share the same moment" I always just took it to mean the beggining and ending of life/humanity, or the ending of the human for and the beggining of the god-like new life they villained so much for. I really don't see how it could be interpreted in other way, frankly.

I... Hope it helped in someway.
"Every line is a joy" -Kaworu Nagisa.

"Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Archont
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 13
Joined: May 25, 2012
Location: A mile away from dragon's den.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Archont » Sat May 26, 2012 10:08 am

I think that Keel merely want to say that whoever directs Instrumentality directs it according to SEELE scenario, at least at this moment. And "the beginning and ending share the same moment" refers to end of solitary human existence and begining of godlike live in GNR womb.

He was just afraid of some discontinuity during the process and kept an eye on it till the very last breath.
Kij mocz i waruj.

SenorSquiid
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 353
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Location: Hoosierland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SenorSquiid » Sat May 26, 2012 10:19 am

Seele had a scenario for third impact, a p-lan by which to achieve it. Even though they didn't get their way, they still got third impact. I think SEELE simply didn't realize how much Gendo's treachery lined up with their scheme, but it all worked out in the end so they were like "Well no worries bro, long as robot man gets to die we is cool hellas very simply."
fnord

---
I will never stop trashing Magma Diver.
Ever.

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 10171
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Sat May 26, 2012 3:59 pm

Seele was relying on Shinji to start Instrumentality in their favor (but of course, Shinji changes his mind at the last minute). Instrumentality was akin to the rapture for Seele, so when Kiel says that the beginning and the end are sharing the same moment, he means the end of his human existence and the beginning of life as conglomerate super being. It goes along with the other theme of "the fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth."
- Sachi

I host the discord server for the EvaGeeks forums. Join us! https://discord.gg/aBQ3F6M9yp

Jornophelanthas
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
Posts: 620
Joined: Dec 24, 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jornophelanthas » Sat May 26, 2012 4:04 pm

What went down in Third Impact coincided so much with SEELE's plans that it might have been indistinguishable from it, until much later.
Note that SEELE did not actually DESIGN Human Instrumentality. Rather, they translated the instructions written on the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls (which were not human in origins), which predicted what would happen if certain events were to come to pass involving Adam, Lilith, the Angels and the Lilim. Human Instrumentality was described there, and everything that has happened, including the creation of Evangelions, was orchestrated by SEELE to make this Human Instrumentality happen.
What they designed was not Human Instrumentality, but the path towards it, culminating in Third Impact.

SEELE wanted to use either Lilith or Unit-01 to initiate Third Impact and merge all of humanity inside the Black Moon. The MPEs were using Unit-01 to awaken Lilith, and just at that moment, Lilith/Rei appeared from beneath the Geofront.
It did not matter to Keel whether Unit-01 or Lilith herself performed Third Impact; it was enough that at least one of them did so.
It did not matter to Keel that Unit-01's pilot was Gendo's son.
It did not matter to Keel that the Lilith that appeared looked suspiciously much like Unit-00's pilot, the one with the deleted biography file.
All that mattered to him was that the instructions on the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls were all fulfilled.

What Keel SHOULD have cared about was:
- Lilith had become self-aware because of Rei's and Kaworu's consciousnesses, and therefore did not blindly perform Human Instrumentality, and instead handed control of it to Shinji.
- Shinji was not loyal to SEELE and ended up choosing to end Instrumentality.

And here's some hypothetical things Keel should have worried about:

- If Gendo had succeeded in controlling both Adam (through the hand graft) and Lilith (through Rei's loyalty), Lilith would have had Gendo's face, and Gendo would have taken control of Instrumentality.
- Lilith had acquired an S2 Engine/Organ by absorbing Adam along with Rei, which gave it the potential to act independently, with unlimited power. But Keel had no way of knowing this, of course.

- If Rei had not returned to Lilith, Lilith would not have appeared. Instead, Unit-01 would have awakened and performed Instrumentality. Except that Unit-01 had Yui's consciousness, and Yui would not have carried out SEElE's version of Instrumentality.
- Unit-01 had acquired an S2 Engine/Organ by devouring the angel Zeruel, which gave it the potential to act independently, with unlimited power.

-----

Finally, what does Keel mean by his line "The beginning and ending share the same moment"?

In my opinion, Keel remarks how similar to the start of Instrumentality is to the beginning of life on earth. Life emerged from the primordial soup, and now humanity is dissolving back into primordial ooze. It is very much the reverse birth, or unbirthing, of humanity.
SEELE believed that by undoing the human race in this way, all pain and suffering would cease to exist, leaving only eternal collective bliss without self-awareness or individuals. This was their conception of paradise: the ultimate risk aversion.

In his internal mind trip with Rei and Kaworu, Shinji first comes to understand this position, and then becomes gradually convinced that this state is not the pinnacle of human achievement; instead, love (represented by Kaworu) and hope (represented by Rei) is the ultimate human achievement. Which can only be achieved by risking pain and loss.

This is the moral of Evangelion: Do not be afraid to take risks, because striving to undo your own existence for the sake of progress is not actually progress.

(Edit: @Sachi: What you say directly above my post is exactly the same in 10% of the words.)

Ceimoa Nan
Tunniel
Tunniel
Age: 32
Posts: 159
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
Location: Saint Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ceimoa Nan » Sat May 26, 2012 4:15 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:- If Gendo had succeeded in controlling both Adam (through the hand graft) and Lilith (through Rei's loyalty), Lilith would have had Gendo's face


That's... a frightening image. Giant Naked Gendo? I've never heard of that one before.

Jayfive
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 46
Posts: 1381
Joined: Oct 16, 2010
Location: Ormskirk, Lancs, UK
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jayfive » Sat May 26, 2012 6:27 pm

View Original PostCeimoa Nan wrote: Giant Naked Gendo?


SPOILER: Show
[URL=http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11975883/46113-800px_m26_c130_zomgrei_super.jpg.html]Image[/URL]
"Fuyutsuki, When children are given their drivers license before being given sole responsibility for the survival of humanity, mecha anime will have crossed a dangerously illogical threshold"

thewayneiac
Committeeperson
Committeeperson
User avatar
Posts: 1632
Joined: Aug 26, 2004
Location: How Kaworu got to the Moon

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby thewayneiac » Sun May 27, 2012 9:42 am

View Original PostCeimoa Nan wrote:That's... a frightening image. Giant Naked Gendo? I've never heard of that one before.


C'mon now, this has been kicking around for years:

Image
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?

Ceimoa Nan
Tunniel
Tunniel
Age: 32
Posts: 159
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
Location: Saint Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ceimoa Nan » Sun May 27, 2012 10:28 am

Well, I thought I did my research. I see you guys have a Giant Naked Rei, a Giant Naked Kaworu, a Giant Giant Naked Rei, a Mini Giant Naked Rei, and a Regular Naked Rei. But there was no Giant Naked Gendo on that list, so I thought it was something new. Perhaps that page is too dated to rely on, but as a fan for only one-and-a-half years, I plead innocence.

The above image is beautiful, though I think it'd be even more perfect if GNG retained GNR's creepy smile.

Archont
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 13
Joined: May 25, 2012
Location: A mile away from dragon's den.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Archont » Sun May 27, 2012 12:46 pm

I looked in the clouds and I was... uhm...

So THIS is the truth about Instrumentality. Either way...
Kij mocz i waruj.

thewayneiac
Committeeperson
Committeeperson
User avatar
Posts: 1632
Joined: Aug 26, 2004
Location: How Kaworu got to the Moon

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby thewayneiac » Sun May 27, 2012 5:25 pm

View Original PostCeimoa Nan wrote:Well, I thought I did my research. I see you guys have a Giant Naked Rei, a Giant Naked Kaworu, a Giant Giant Naked Rei, a Mini Giant Naked Rei, and a Regular Naked Rei. But there was no Giant Naked Gendo on that list, so I thought it was something new. Perhaps that page is too dated to rely on, but as a fan for only one-and-a-half years, I plead innocence.

The above image is beautiful, though I think it'd be even more perfect if GNG retained GNR's creepy smile.


Wow! So people still go to the old site? Here's a link to the newer, Wiki-based Geektionary:

[url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Geektionary[/url]

I added an entry for Giant Naked Gendo; thanks for pointing out that deficiency.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 10171
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Sun May 27, 2012 6:40 pm

I think the Giant Naked Gendo tangent has successfully wrapped up, and with that we can return to the real topic. Enjoy. (:
- Sachi

I host the discord server for the EvaGeeks forums. Join us! https://discord.gg/aBQ3F6M9yp

SenorSquiid
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 353
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Location: Hoosierland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SenorSquiid » Sun May 27, 2012 6:47 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I think the Giant Naked Gendo tangent has successfully wrapped up, and with that we can return to the real topic. Enjoy. (:

I thought that was the real topic...
fnord

---
I will never stop trashing Magma Diver.
Ever.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun May 27, 2012 10:38 pm

"Share the same moment" is a pretty awkward rendition. The actual lines are:

「始まると終わりは同じ所にある。よい。全てはこれでよい」
Hajimari to owari wa onaji tokoro ni aru. Yoi. Subete wa kore de yoi.
(Very literally: The beginning and the end are [at/in] the same place. Good. With this, all is good.)

I looked in Eijiro for the phrase "tokoro ni aru" (the source of the translation weirdness), and the examples are in the sense "(a location) is [exists]". We're dealing with a more idiomatic usage here, since the beginning and the end to which Kiel are referring aren't literal places. But think about it like the starting line and the finish line in a race being the same place. To complete their "evolution", humanity's souls return to their source. Beginning and the end are the same.

Sorry if I'm being redundant, but I figured I might as well tackle the line from a lingual perspective.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Dream
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3284
Joined: Dec 08, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dream » Mon May 28, 2012 10:48 am

「始まると終わりは同じ所にある。よい。全てはこれでよい」
Hajimari to owari wa onaji tokoro ni aru. Yoi. Subete wa kore de yoi.
(Very literally: The beginning and the end are [at/in] the same place. Good. With this, all is good.)


I wonder if he would be referring to the chamber of Guf?

For whatever reason, i always kinda associated that line with Fuyutsuki's line about the Chamber of Guf before Komm Susser Todd.
"Every line is a joy" -Kaworu Nagisa.

"Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Son of Lilin
Adam
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 52
Joined: Apr 19, 2012
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Son of Lilin » Tue May 29, 2012 6:28 pm

I think he's referring to how all life originated from Lilith and that instrumentality was going to be a return of all of that life back to Lilith.

gatotsu911
Nerv Scientist
Nerv Scientist
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 1674
Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Location: US of East Coast
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby gatotsu911 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:35 pm

I think the dub actually did a pretty good job translating this line: "The beginning and the end are one and the same... At last, all is right with the world."

Whether this was what Anno was going for or not I dunno, but I think it works really well.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased

"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence

Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests