Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Postby tjann » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Hey, this is my first post here. After finishing Eva and EoE about 2 weeks ago and after countless hours of learning about the series, theres something I can't seem to understand.

Why did Instrumentality occur in EoTV? What did trigger it?
In EoTV theres just a jump from Kaworus death in Episode 24 straight to Instrumentality in Episode 25 right?
Am I missing something here?
As far as I know the 3rd impact was triggered in 26' (EoE).
And the 3rd impact is needed for Instrumentality, isn't it?

Thanks in advance. (:

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Re: Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:01 pm

View Original Posttjann wrote:Why did Instrumentality occur in EoTV? What did trigger it?


As in EoE, Gendou returned Rei to her true form of Lilith (and presumably merged Adam with her). This exchange can be seen in ep25, 9:45 - 10:00 more or less. As in EoE, she used the godlike power she attained and, at Shinji's wish, returned everything to the womb. Shinji realizes this is the case in ep25, 20:00 - 21:00.

View Original Posttjann wrote:In EoTV theres just a jump from Kaworus death in Episode 24 straight to Instrumentality in Episode 25 right?


No. Approximately the first ten minutes of ep25 take place before Instrumentality begins. In terms of End of Eva, Shinji's monologue in EoTV occurs on the night after he kills Kaworu. Asuka's occurs while she is in Unit 02 at the bottom of the lake. Rei's occurs while she is floating in LCL shortly before Gendou comes and puts his plan into action. As Rei consents to Gendou's plan, the EoTV intertitle tells us: SO BEGINS THE HUMAN INSTRUMENTALITY PROJECT. When we return to Shinji, he's commenting on the sensation of his body just having disintegrated into LCL, presumably as seen in EoE.

View Original Posttjann wrote:And the 3rd impact is needed for Instrumentality, isn't it?


The TV ending doesn't concern itself with Third Impact at all, using only the language of the Human Instrumentality Project to define what's happening. EoE does suggest that Third Impact is required for Human Instrumentality to occur, but that shouldn't necessarily be back-interpreted into EoTV - after all, EoTV is a stopgap ending and what it's meant to portray is not anywhere close to fleshed-out in the sense that EoE is. I think that without the time to do justice to the Third Impact itself (a pretty spectacular process) Anno decided it would be better not to bring it up - the episodes of EoTV already being confusing enough without bringing up events that are never shown.
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Re: Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:57 am

View Original Posttjann wrote:In EoTV theres just a jump from Kaworus death in Episode 24 straight to Instrumentality in Episode 25 right?
Episode 25 is a mix of narration (Gendo explaining what is going on), instrumentality (after the "Rei, it is time"), enigmatic glimpses into the real world (Asuka in the lake, Misato and Ritsuko dead), and flashback (the Misato/Ritsuko conversation for one).

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:she used the godlike power she attained and, at Shinji's wish, returned everything to the womb.
This way lies the concurrency debate. EoTV goes out of its way to paint Shinji as the representative Everyman, rather than the nexus of instrumentality; and Rei has no special place in what happens after all minds become one mind. Indeed, in the white space section of 26, it's Gendo who's playing stage manager.
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Re: Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Postby Azathoth » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:42 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:This way lies the concurrency debate.


This way lies the actual show, you mean? I don't give a shit for "concurrency" myself and trying to argue that 26 and 26' are synonymous is tantamount to trying to argue that Anno was the same person in winter 96 as he was in summer 97. But really now, come on:

bbcode shits itself when i try to post this as text lol  SPOILER: Show
[URL=http://min.us/mUOiHYAoP#1o]Image[/URL]


Emphasis added. Shinji's blatantly, unambiguously, repeatedly identified as complicit in and directly responsible for the current state of affairs. Particularly in light of the events of 25' it should be obvious what is happening here, but even in the absence of that context it is made perfectly clear that Shinji is at the root of Human Instrumentality.

Indeed, in the white space section of 26, it's Gendo who's playing stage manager.


Along with literally every other member of the cast. Hell, Gendou has like ten lines in the entirety of 26, and half of them are "hmmm. hai, Yui". I'll be honest, I've never remotely understood what it is with your insistence that EoTV is Gendou's Sparkly Singularity Happyland when the series itself makes no further effort to relate Gendou's will to what's going on after his apologetics for the intertitle's harsh view of HIP, halfway through ep25.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:00 am

bbcode shits itself when i try to post this as text
Have you tried the platinum transcripts or even the LTP?

Gendo actually changes Shinji's little world

IKARI (OFF):
I will give you a restriction.


Everyone else is in the peanut gallery.

Episode 25 establishes the egalitarian nature of this Instrumentality, with all the symmetric A-in-B's-mind/B-in-A's-mind; then episode 26 opens by choosing to focus on Shinji as representative of the whole thing.
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Postby Warren Peace » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:49 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Gendo actually changes Shinji's little world


I'm not sure you can definitively call that "Gendo" when it comes to this sequence. I wouldn't be surprised if that line was assigned to him randomly as they were cycling through the characters.

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Re: Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:25 am

View Original Posttjann wrote:Hey, this is my first post here. After finishing Eva and EoE about 2 weeks ago and after countless hours of learning about the series, theres something I can't seem to understand.

Why did Instrumentality occur in EoTV? What did trigger it?
In EoTV theres just a jump from Kaworus death in Episode 24 straight to Instrumentality in Episode 25 right?
Am I missing something here?
As far as I know the 3rd impact was triggered in 26' (EoE).
And the 3rd impact is needed for Instrumentality, isn't it?

Thanks in advance. (:


Instrumentality doesn't start right away, it's just that they use a very avantgardistic narration technique - You could call it seeing what everyone was thinking during it all.

It is, in fact, very easy to pinpoint where exactly TI happens/ Instrumentality starts here, because there's a big cue card announcing it("With this, begins the Instrumentality of man...), followed by a short scene where Shinji describes being tanged and compares it to his experience in ep 19/20, which happens halfway through episode 25.

As for what triggered it, well, the scene before that is Rei's contemplation scene, which ends with Gendo telling her "Let us go, this is the day for which you were created" and her answering "Yes, Sir".
In other words, while TV-Rei has also grown to somewhat resent Gendo, she gets somewhat unsure towards the end ("I prayed for the day he would abandon me, but now, I fear it"... ) and ultimately does what he asks of her, triggering Gendo's version of Third Impact (As we see later in the episode: Shinji: WTF is going here? Misato: It's your father's work)

My guess is that Gendo's plan involves just tanging everybody and assuming that no one would detang themselves because the resulting hive mind is so much better, unlike Seele, who had further plans to have that hive mind become some super evolved organism, (Perhaps in the shape of the big Rei/Lillith/Everyone hybrid). At very least, Gendo seems to think that Seele's plan involves "killing" everyone, white his plan doesn't.

Since Rei didn't fly away and go get Shinji this time, the cue cards do, as someone pointed out previously, present him as just one example.
In any case, he decides that being tang sux and reforms himself, after which he finds out that everyone else was already waiting for him outside
(unlike in EoE, where he is the first one to return and spends some time alone before Asuka shows up)
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Re: Question regarding Instrumentality in EoTV

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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:27 pm

View Original Posttjann wrote:Why did Instrumentality occur in EoTV? What did trigger it?


We can safely assume Gendo, Rei, and the Adam sample are involved, but without going into EoE stuff there's not enough information to say for sure what happened. Given his position of authority within instrumentality, it lends support to the idea that this is the "Gendo Wins" scenario.

In EoTV theres just a jump from Kaworus death in Episode 24 straight to Instrumentality in Episode 25 right?
Am I missing something here?


We see a few glimpses of the real world and it's likely the first few scenes before the title cards specifically say instrumentality is starting are
interpretations' of two people talking in the real world or perhaps people just stewing on their own thoughts. It's vague.

As far as I know the 3rd impact was triggered in 26' (EoE).
And the 3rd impact is needed for Instrumentality, isn't it?


We don't know if it's necessary. It might depend on the scale of people being instrumentalized... for all we know EoTV's instrumentality might only involve the main cast, leaving the rest of the world completely unaffected.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:18 am

There are references to "all souls" becoming one, so I don't take the idea that it's just the main cast very seriously. Also, Gendo mentions that everyone is returning to "the Mother that was lost" i.e. Lilith; so I don't see how one could argue that Rei isn't specially situated in the whole process, unless one wishes to make the bizarre argument that she isn't Lilith in EoTV, which would obviate the whole point of the conversation between Rei 1, 2, and 3 in #25.

Based on all the snippets of dialog and concurrent images linking EoTV to EoE, I am entirely confident that the basics of the 3I scenario in EoE (i.e. the MP Evas, Shinji/Unit-01 crucified, Giant Naked Rei, everyone in the world goes sploosh) were were already contemplated by Anno when EoTV was written, but are only referenced in it in a very cryptic and elliptical manner.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:49 pm

View Original PostShin-seiki wrote:There are references to "all souls" becoming one, so I don't take the idea that it's just the main cast very seriously. Also, Gendo mentions that everyone is returning to "the Mother that was lost" i.e. Lilith; so I don't see how one could argue that Rei isn't specially situated in the whole process, unless one wishes to make the bizarre argument that she isn't Lilith in EoTV, which would obviate the whole point of the conversation between Rei 1, 2, and 3 in #25.


fair enough.

Based on all the snippets of dialog and concurrent images linking EoTV to EoE, I am entirely confident that the basics of the 3I scenario in EoE (i.e. the MP Evas, Shinji/Unit-01 crucified, Giant Naked Rei, everyone in the world goes sploosh) were were already contemplated by Anno when EoTV was written, but are only referenced in it in a very cryptic and elliptical manner.


...which is mostly sensible, considering the original draft of ep25 (discarded) was the basis of the first half of EoE. It can't be exactly the same though, because there are moments that aren't identical... Misato/Gendo/Ritsuko office confrontation, for example, or Ritsuko floating face down. My point is we can't KNOW this because it isn't shown; all we can do is make assumptions, but if those assumptions are based on also viewing separate derivative works rather than the original draft there's no telling what truely carries over from one to the other.
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Postby r0ach » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:30 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:fair enough.



...which is mostly sensible, considering the original draft of ep25 (discarded) was the basis of the first half of EoE. It can't be exactly the same though, because there are moments that aren't identical... Misato/Gendo/Ritsuko office confrontation, for example, or Ritsuko floating face down. My point is we can't KNOW this because it isn't shown; all we can do is make assumptions, but if those assumptions are based on also viewing separate derivative works rather than the original draft there's no telling what truely carries over from one to the other.


Is there a script of the original draft of ep 25, were I could read this Ritsuko/Misato/Gendo confrontation?
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Postby NemZ » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:01 am

View Original Postr0ach wrote:Is there a script of the original draft of ep 25, were I could read this Ritsuko/Misato/Gendo confrontation?


Not that I'm aware of. We only know it worked out that way because of a few scattered quotes and a mention in the RCB.

The confrontation happens about halfway through ep25. Whether it happens in the real world or within instrumentality is unclear.
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Postby Kendrix » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:56 am

What might be interesting is that EoTV!Ritsuko was very much in favor of Instrumentality, unlike her EoE counterpart, who didn't seem to care much for it/ didn't mind stopping it if it meant killing Gendo/ might even have been trying to prevent it.

Some things I've read about the proposal say that there was originally to be a big attack of twelve Angels coming from the moon (It turned to out to be EVAs not Angels attacking, and the "Angels comming from the moon" bit seem,s to have been reused with Rebuild's coffins) after which Gendo and Ritsuko would be left as the only supporters of Instrumentality.
That she is floating the other way around might look likle a minor detail at first, but it imples a very different form of death: She was shot in the back. , which means that she was taken by surprise, perhaps by someone who chased her from somerwhere else.
There was no prior conversation, unlike ion EoE where she pulled a gun first/waited for her killer.

As for the conversation between her and Misato, it might, of course, be just a visualisatioon of Misato finding out about stuff (like in EoE where she gets the information from the computer) or they might actually have confronted each other, which I prefer, simply because it would round up the way the two were played as contrast figures/ how their initial apparent friendship got increasingly strained by their disagreements. If so, they parted as enemies and died without seeing each other again.
In fact, one of them might've even killed the other...

Aparently, somewhere between the finishing of the series and the time he made EoE, he thought that it would be better if Ritsuko rebelled.


(Some Day, I really must go and write a fanfic that involves each ending done in the style of the other/what physically happens during EoTV)
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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:50 pm

Since it seems like it might be relevant in matters of Shinji's influence over HIP, note that this happens fairly early in EoTV...

Image Image

Shinji:
Evangelion Unit 01 ...
So, do I ultimately have no choice but to pilot it?
Even after killing someone I loved?
Are you saying I'm supposed to listen to my father and everyone else,
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Mother!
Say something! Answer me!


Also loosely corresponds to this moment:

Image
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Postby NemZ » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:58 pm

I'm not buying that one. He's just putting himself in Kaworu's place since he's considering his choice in the previous episode.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:42 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I'm not buying that one. He's just putting himself in Kaworu's place since he's considering his choice in the previous episode.

Well, you've got:
- Eva-01 emerging from redness (red backdrop; bakelite)
- Eva-01 ominously grabbing at Shinji
- Shinji referring to her as "Mother"
- Shinji deciding whether or not he's going to return to the plug

In any event, EoTV does seem to be letting us know that Shinji ends up in the Eva early on, with the intimation that Yui wants something from him.
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Postby Kendrix » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:43 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I'm not buying that one. He's just putting himself in Kaworu's place


I'd go with that if it wasn't for all the talk about getting into the EVA.

That he was inside it doesn't say anything about wether he had control over instrumentality or not, especially since this time, Rei doesn't seem to have given him control.

Perhaps we should look at the scene where he is tanged.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:04 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:- Eva-01 emerging from redness (red backdrop; bakelite)
- Eva-01 ominously grabbing at Shinji


The first is a reference to the final shot in the "my enemy!" section of ep20 (looming Gendo in black on red), the second is reused from 24. This just another example of Shinji trying to blame something or someone for his choices or lack thereof.

- Shinji referring to her as "Mother"
- Shinji deciding whether or not he's going to return to the plug


What do these prove? It's not like EoE was the one and only time he's ever done either of these.

I'm not saying it isn't possible the reference works the other way around, however. EoE can remix and rehash EoTV all it wants without any issue from me, but you're going to need much more concrete evidence to go the other way and prove what was or wasn't in the common source document.

Also we should totally call this missing proto-25 script "The Q Document" just for religious boner shits and maximum rebuild confusion. :sly:
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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:19 pm

Are there any other instances where Shinji explicitly addresses Eva-01 as "Mother"?
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Postby NemZ » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:34 pm

Hmm. I'd have to do some script diving to answer that, though off the top of my head I suspect it might happen at various moments in 16, 19, 20 and/or 23.
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