Remaining Questions I Have From NGE

[Karex_Usyrion]

And may I ask you where you might have found this information?

NGE / EoE canon does not provide such details.
The narrative does communicate context and some symbology
(e.g. samples of Athanasius Kircher's work).
References with details include sources for Qabalah, Angels and Qliphoth.

[trkk-KAAN]

i also have one question,

why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at the final scene of The End of Evangelion? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?

[Mr. Tines]

i also have one question,

why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at the final scene of The End of Evangelion? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?

Bye bye, baka.
That's what Yui did too.
Yes.
Kyoko.
Harpies.
In the GeoFront and Instrumentality.
After she woke from sedation
Because she's back in the bathtub to all intents and purposes.

Also, any of these.

[Azathoth]

why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at the final scene of The End of Evangelion?

Because she's incomprehensible and obtains sun-knowledge whenever she dies, and she is attempting to kill him by means of it.

why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too?

Because he has independently obtained a sort of planetary knowledge which complements her meaning; therefore her attack is successful and he is injured emotionally once more, as he predicted that he would be.

did Asuka change?

She's just better informed. One can't possibly come to the conclusion that she's the same as she ever was. Asuka dies three times; once when she cuts her wrists, once when she is impaled; once when Ikari Shinji strangles her. Each death confers on her a stronger resurrection: this is a solar knowledge. At the end of the first death she realizes that there was always a power making her great; at the end of the second death she realizes that there was never any power that could make her greater than the world. At the moment of the third death it seems that the world's incarnation, planetary messianic, has finally broken her spine. Of course Shinji then realizes that that is not the case. The truth she realizes now is that planetary knowledge cannot defeat a red world. How can she realize such a thing? Shinji-Anno does not know. He can only observe it, never make it into sense. It is absent. She would rather die than let him know it.

In the end he no longer wants to know. He wants things to be red again. That is the end of the third death. That is the fourth incarnation of Asuka Langley Soryu, highest visible form of the solar wanderer rape deity. Before this film, Shinji could not comprehend the true form of Asuka's attack. Now he can. That's why he's crying.

[Reichu]

Azathoth: You've been into the rancid foodstuffs, haven't you?

[Karex_Usyrion]

Outstanding input from Azathoth : congratulations on elevating the quality.

[Azathoth]

Azathoth: You've been into the rancid foodstuffs, haven't you?

Don't knock it till you try it

[tomrule123]

She's just better informed. One can't possibly come to the conclusion that she's the same as she ever was. Asuka dies three times; once when she cuts her wrists, once when she is impaled; once when Ikari Shinji strangles her. Each death confers on her a stronger resurrection: this is a solar knowledge. At the end of the first death she realizes that there was always a power making her great; at the end of the second death she realizes that there was never any power that could make her greater than the world. At the moment of the third death it seems that the world's incarnation, planetary messianic, has finally broken her spine. Of course Shinji then realizes that that is not the case. The truth she realizes now is that planetary knowledge cannot defeat a red world. How can she realize such a thing? Shinji-Anno does not know. He can only observe it, never make it into sense. It is absent. She would rather die than let him know it.

In the end he no longer wants to know. He wants things to be red again. That is the end of the third death. That is the fourth incarnation of Asuka Langley Soryu, highest visible form of the solar wanderer rape deity. Before this film, Shinji could not comprehend the true form of Asuka's attack. Now he can. That's why he's crying.

Sir... you win the EVA internet. My aspects to EoE have now changed thanks to you.

[Mt Olympus]

She's just better informed. One can't possibly come to the conclusion that she's the same as she ever was. Asuka dies three times; once when she cuts her wrists, once when she is impaled; once when Ikari Shinji strangles her. Each death confers on her a stronger resurrection: this is a solar knowledge. At the end of the first death she realizes that there was always a power making her great; at the end of the second death she realizes that there was never any power that could make her greater than the world. At the moment of the third death it seems that the world's incarnation, planetary messianic, has finally broken her spine. Of course Shinji then realizes that that is not the case. The truth she realizes now is that planetary knowledge cannot defeat a red world. How can she realize such a thing? Shinji-Anno does not know. He can only observe it, never make it into sense. It is absent. She would rather die than let him know it.

In the end he no longer wants to know. He wants things to be red again. That is the end of the third death. That is the fourth incarnation of Asuka Langley Soryu, highest visible form of the solar wanderer rape deity. Before this film, Shinji could not comprehend the true form of Asuka's attack. Now he can. That's why he's crying.

I wonder if that's why water is so relevant when Asuka is around, symbolizing rebirth-cleansing-sadness-etc. Interesting read!

[Karex_Usyrion]

I wonder if that's why water is so relevant when Asuka is around

Hermetic alchemy : Water quenches Fire. Water is counterpoint to Fire, balance to the Solar Knowledge.

From Asuka Strikes! in the Pacific Ocean to the end of EoE on the shore of the sea of LCL, no accident nor coincidence.

[Mt Olympus]

Hermetic alchemy : Water quenches Fire. Water is counterpoint to Fire, balance to the Solar Knowledge.

From Asuka Strikes! in the Pacific Ocean to the end of EoE on the shore of the sea of LCL, no accident nor coincidence.

Ah yes, I never thought of it that way, the fiery red head always seems to be getting submersed into something more than just her Eva's plug, quenching that thirst. And Hermeticism... big fan :)

OH and Rei as the cool and calm one.... aww snap!

[Reichu]

Fire and water, earth and sun, that's fine and all, but "solar/planetary knowledge"? "Dying three times"? "Defeating a red world"? "Planetary messianic"? "Solar wanderer rape deity"? Etc. Are you really serious, Az? People are taking you seriously, but you never struck me as the Zuggybabble type...

If that stuff actually has anything to do with NGE, or, indeed, means anything at all, perhaps someone could translate...

Karex: I was under the impression that the Qliphoth was (in layman's terms) the 'dark side' of the Sephirothic Tree, and has the exact same configuration (9, sometimes 10, spheres). Where do Sammael's wings figure into it? If you could provide some references and/or elaborate further on your reasoning, that would be appropriate. We're not all mysticism experts here, and without further support it just seems like you're jumping on a numerological coincidence and introducing mystical elements that aren't present in NGE. (Though Lilith and Eva-01 each sprout twelve wings, and an explanation for THAT consistent with the show's established mythos and mechanics could be interesting.)

[Mr. Tines]

Fire and water, earth and sun, that's fine and all, but "solar/planetary knowledge"? "Dying three times"? "Defeating a red world"? "Planetary messianic"? "Solar wanderer rape deity"? Etc. Are you really serious, Az?

It sounded to me like some Nasuverse material transposed into the EoE setting. I'm waiting for a chance to copypasta it into an /a/ "WTF did I just watch?" thread.

[Karex_Usyrion]

Reichu: You have it confused almost upside down and there's no numerological coincidence. Samael is part of the Qliphoth. Samael has 12 wings. Even a cursory search in any of the top search engines will show numerous references, one commonly used is the Genesis materials of Rabbi Eliezar so you could reference those and if you still need more I could give out further materials translated from Latin and Hebrew.

Hayyot and Offannim have only six wings. Only Samael has 12. I am not going to start looking for any other way to explain Lilith's and Eva-01's 12 wings other than through association to Samael, the Dead Sea Scrolls and as I mentioned previously, to Elohim Tzabaoth.

All the questions, topics and answers in this thread are consistent with mythology that is exposed in NGE and EoE. There are symbols, the contexts are developed, and the images are shown. NGE and EoE mysticism draws many fans to it and similarly away from it, but it is there more central to the whole rather than peripheral and undeniably there even if some do not like it being there and would rather have no mention.

I don't understand which kind of explanations you think do fit established mythos and mechanics for the show whereas others do not.

[Reichu]

I know that Sammael is part of the Qliphoth and has twelve wings, but I don't really understand the connection you're suggesting between the 12 MP Evas, the Qliphoth, and Sammael's wings. ("Qliphoth Sam[m]ael wing" turned up this page as one of the top search results!)

Random thoughts:

- If they're making wings instead of the spheres of the Qliphoth, then how are they using the Qliphoth and the Da'ath circuit? If they're in fact making 13 wings (given Eva-01's involvement), how does Sammael figure into things at all? Just because Sammael + 1 = God? Isn't that kind of... roundabout?
- Why would Seele be initially interested in using Sammael and the Qliphoth, then turn around when they don't have enough Evas and use the regular Sephirothic Tree instead? Especially considering they could form the Qliphoth with nine (plus one) Evas?
- Eva-01 actually sprouts four wings in EoE. As luck would have it, 4 wings + 9 MP Evas =13. Notice that Seele do not jump on the chance to generate a 13-winged display in the sky here.

The NGE mythos only ever involves the regular SToL. It's in the opening, on the ceiling of Gendo's office, and it's generated in the sky in EoE. While Sammael is referenced via the twelve wings of Eva-01 and Lilith, and via the 12-winged angel in the opening, the concept of Sammael (and of Lilith, for that matter) exist independently of the Qliphoth, and NGE does not necessarily imply any connection via some phantom version of HIP that never came to pass.

[Karex_Usyrion]

how does Sammael figure into things at all? Just because Sammael + 1 = God? Isn't that kind of... roundabout?

It's not roundabout: Samael being the lesser and conspiring to usurp God's place is a basic tenet. Samael has been at it far longer than SEELE.

Why would Seele be initially interested in using Sammael and the Qliphoth, then turn around when they don't have enough Evas

Samael and the Qliphoth (ascension via the Da'ath circuit) is a much more potent ritual.
SEELE allowed a backstabber in their midst. They underestimated Gendo and the events which precipitated the schedule. (Sadamoto shows this better in the manga). They turned to a lesser ritual they could complete in time, one with different characteristics, and that ultimately resulted ineffective (for them).

some phantom version of HIP that never came to pass.

No one is suggesting different versions of HIP nor implying phantom versions of HIP. There's only one version of HIP, there are different rituals towards it.

Deception is a preferred avenue for SEELE and Gendo. The mere choice of Kircher's tree for the depiction (Qabalah from a Jesuit) is in itself indicative of the veiled involvement of the Qliphoth. If the depiction shown had been from a Judaic (Kabbalah) or Christian (Cabbalah) source then the context would be different.

Aside from the above, I didn't want to leave it unmentioned that the information in
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Tree_of_Life
is a commendable effort, but still you may want them to review if "Elohim Sabaoth" should be "Elohim Tzabaoth" instead.

So...Thanks for the rotten tomatoes! Anyways, ppl have mentioned the thread contains at least an interesting read. The tread is wearing thin in this too rough terrain, I think it will be easier to establish a breakthrough by going to Japan, getting an interview and publishing answers from Anno rather than through discussion; I haven't even started with postmodern mysticism in NGE / EoE.

[Bagheera]

So...Thanks for the rotten tomatoes! Anyways, ppl have mentioned the thread contains at least an interesting read. The tread is wearing thin in this too rough terrain, I think it will be easier to establish a breakthrough by going to Japan, getting an interview and publishing answers from Anno rather than through discussion; I haven't even started with postmodern mysticism in NGE / EoE.

Yeah, that's happened already. He's gone on the record as saying that the religious imagery and terminology in NGE were largely superficial, and were chosen because they were foreign and sounded cool/complicated. See here and here for useful commentary on the topic. Reading too much of real life religious texts/mysticism into the show is a bad idea because such was explicitly not the intent.

[NemZ]

...this thread is fascinating. Its like an internet-enabled mind meld ritual, a virtual instrumentality giving birth to a singular uber-aspie with the potential to unite them under one exceptionally complex banner. Also, I suspect a couple of you may actually have sprouted religious boners in the course of the great work.

[AuraTwilight]

I demand Religion Boner gets added to the wiki.

[Bagheera]

I demand Religion Boner gets added to the wiki.

You seem to have quite the boner for religious boners.