Remaining Questions I Have From NGE

[Reichu]

Regarding the Tree of Life, I find it somewhat 'fishy' that

(A) it is created right before pre-3I Instrumentality.
(B) Instrumentality proper occurs soon after GNR takes it into her body.

It's almost as if it's being used for both! And furthermore:

Eva-01 and Shinji are essentially Seele's "substrate" for HIP. The former is Lilith's substitute/medium, and Shinji is the 'imperfect ego' who will complement all humanity.

When the Spear of Longinus merges with Eva-01 to form the ToL, Fuyutsuki says that Eva-01 has been "reduced/returned to" this state, and he also refers to it as "the embryo of [a] life". Obviously, Eva-01 didn't START OUT as a big red tree, so what could he mean?

The symbol of the inverted tree has implications for the direction in which humanity will be heading: up toward the roots (our origins) which lie in heaven (with god). Fuyutsuki also mentions that Eva-01 is essentially a god before she turns into the tree. Talk about a clusterfuck.

The best guess I currently have, based on all this, is that the ToL represents the "embryonic" form of the singular lifeform Seele wants to create.

There are references (let me know if you want further details) which hint at the possibility for the souls in the mass production units as being from the members of Class 2-A.

Always found this kind of dubious. Class 2-A is filled with pilot candidates. Their moms are probably on ice somewhere. Seele might've just used those souls for their evil flock, then (in the storyboard, anyway) wanted the kids flown to Germany as backup pilots in case something went wrong with the Kaworu dummy systems.

[Bagheera]

Regarding the Tree of Life, I find it somewhat 'fishy' that

(A) it is created right before pre-3I Instrumentality.
(B) Instrumentality proper occurs soon after GNR takes it into her body.

It's almost as if it's being used for both!

Nah. Remember, SEELE planned to go ahead with the HIP even when they thought the Lance was lost -- it follows it's not necessary for the process. Likewise, since Adam could clearly tang the world without using Unit 01 it follows that Yui wasn't necessary for the process.

My take:

Note that, when the MPEs enter the Tree of Life formation (or whatever; when their ATFs resonate, basically) Unit 01 is immobilized -- just as it was when the Lance actually returned! I believe the purpose of the MPEs was the prepare Unit 01 for use as an ark, essentially mimicking the role the Lance would play were it available (which is why the MPEs were basically shuffled off the stage once the Lance showed up; until Lilith had them pop their cores to release their souls they didn't actually do anything of note).

Unit 01 wasn't necessary for Instrumentality in the least; the Black Moon was more than adequate for that task. But Unit 01 was necessary for use as an ark in SEELE's plan; wanted a conveyance for whatever came after, but past that it wasn't really important (which is why we don't see it actually do anything once the Lance binds it and Rei gobbles it up).

Matters are different for Yui's plan, of course, but I went into that on the last page.

Eva-01 and Shinji are essentially Seele's "substrate" for HIP. The former is Lilith's substitute/medium, and Shinji is the 'imperfect ego' who will complement all humanity.

Though note they don't seem to care much about whether he's present or not; if he's there they have to break him, if he's not, meh. As long as a Lilith-substitute (an ark) is there it's all good.

When the Spear of Longinus merges with Eva-01 to form the ToL, Fuyutsuki says that Eva-01 has been "reduced/returned to" this state, and he also refers to it as "the embryo of [a] life". Obviously, Eva-01 didn't START OUT as a big red tree, so what could he mean?

It's becoming the embryonic form of a Seed/Source of Life, per Yui's plan. Lilith completes the process and bids her farewell at the end of the movie, and off she goes.

Always found this kind of dubious. Class 2-A is filled with pilot candidates. Their moms are probably on ice somewhere. Seele might've just used those souls for their evil flock, then (in the storyboard, anyway) wanted the kids flown to Germany as backup pilots in case something went wrong with the Kaworu dummy systems.

Agreed. Using them as souls for the MPEs is non-sensical.

[Reichu]

Bagheera: Considering the "Yui becomes a Seed of Life" thing might just be wishful thinking and completely wrong (as much as I hope it isn't), making sense of the Tree of Life should rely first and foremost on the scene's context. Nothing within that scene, leading up to it, or immediately following it has anything outwardly to do with a shadowy passing-of-the-torch that maybe possibly could be going on between Yui and Lilith, unless you're reading between the lines at a minimum of 4x magnification and missing more parsimonious implications in the process.

Fuyutsuki explains the Tree of Life in the context of Third Impact and a choice that Shinji has to make.

FUYUTSUKI:
The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Knowledge possessed by humans...
Having obtained them both, Eva Unit 01 has attained an existence equal to a god.
And now, it has been restored to the Tree of Life, the embryo of life.
Will it become the Ark that saves humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

Gonna stick to my guns here. I've heard the "Tree of Life is turning Eva-01 into SoL" stuff since before your time (from Jimbo), and it never really satisfied, since that interpretation always seemed to rely more on whimsy and less on actually making sense of what the film throws at you.

[Bagheera]

Gonna stick to my guns here. I've heard the "Tree of Life is turning Eva-01 into SoL" stuff since before your time (from Jimbo), and it never really satisfied, since that interpretation always seemed to rely more on whimsy and less on actually making sense of what the film throws at you.

And I disagree. The film often explains itself after the fact (take Shin-Sekei's take on Gendo's last words to Ritsuko, for example), and we see the passing of the torch business in the final scene with Yui and Lilith. Nothing in Fuyu's speech contradicts this; t's up to Shinji whether Yui's or SEELE's plan succeeds, and Lilith needs to transform Unit 01 either way -- either as a SoL for Yui, or as an ark/soul repository for SEELE.

I can go through it line for line if you like, but it all fits. Nothing else offered to date does.

[Reichu]

I can go through it line for line if you like, but it all fits. Nothing else offered to date does.

If you think you can take all the evidence (both spoken and visual) into account, and disprove the common counter-arguments... I wouldn't mind seeing a thread on that.

[Bagheera]

If you think you can take all the evidence (both spoken and visual) into account, and disprove the common counter-arguments... I wouldn't mind seeing a thread on that.

The problem is that I haven't seen any counter-arguments. What spoken or visual evidence undermines what I say above? Apart from the context argument (which doesn't work IMO -- see the comparison with Gendo's last words to Ritsuko) nothing's been offered just yet. The approach I've offered provides the following:

-- It explains what the Lance was doing, and is mindful of both its actions and its role as described in the CI and as seen during 2I.

-- It explains how the MPEs act as a substitute for the Lance and why they faded into insignificance once the Lance showed up.

-- It explains why SEELE was prepared to proceed with the HIP without the Lance.

-- It explains why SEELE didn't want Unit 01 to acquire a S2 engine.

-- It addresses the fact that Adam was prepared to initiate an Impact event even though it didn't have access to either an Eva or a Lance (indeed, the Lance appeared to be inhibiting Adam's efforts from what we can see in ep. 21).

-- It explains why Yui is described as being a god but doesn't actually do anything particularly impressive until Lilith dies.

-- It explains that final scene between Yui and Lilith, which I haven't seen addressed anywhere (more a failing on my part than anything, but it doesn't come up much).

-- It accounts for the differences in the plans of Gendo, SEELE, and Yui, explains which parts are relevant to each, and addresses Shinji's deciding role in the whole mess.

I know that isn't everything (I'm still a little fuzzy on what exactly the Red Earth Ceremony entails and how it works), but it hits the highlights. As I said, no one's pointed out specific problems with my reasoning thus far; the worst I get is "I don't like it" or "it doesn't feel right" or the like with no alternative offered. If my reasoning is faulty, give specific reasons why! If there are problems to address I want to hear about them, but "meh, religious boner" doesn't really help.

If the theory in general is unclear I can post it in toto later on in a separate thread.

[Reichu]

Bagheera: In general, "unclear" is the word. I see you bring this stuff up with utter confidence again and again, but it would be nice to see it brought together formally (with the classic screenshot and script treatment).

Also, if the theory is worth anything, it will have counterarguments that you can recognize and explain, otherwise it isn't falsifiable. I've brought up counters a few times, but they've apparently been classified as not counting...

And just so you don't jump to any conclusions, I'm taking the stance that I'm taking not because I disagree with everything you're saying, but because after all these years I'm still not completely convinced even by things I want to believe.

-- It explains how the MPEs act as a substitute for the Lance and why they faded into insignificance once the Lance showed up.

The harpies don't "fade into insignificance" until GNR shows up. They do quite a lot before that, while all the Spear is doing is hanging out in front of Yui's throat.

[Bagheera]

Bagheera: In general, "unclear" is the word. I see you bring this stuff up with utter confidence again and again, but it would be nice to see it brought together formally (with the classic screenshot and script treatment).

The latter won't happen (I don't find that approach to be particularly compelling in most cases, as I go "oh wow, that's impressive!" while I'm reading it but then go back and watch the show and go "hey, wait a minute . . . " Context is too important for me to be convinced that going that route is worthwhile), but I'll put something out tonight or tomorrow.

Also, if the theory is worth anything, it will have counterarguments that you can recognize and explain, otherwise it isn't falsifiable. I've brought up counters a few times, but they've apparently been classified as not counting...

I haven't seen anything specific (apart from the one below, which is a good start). Critiques that begin with "in general . . . " are particularly unhelpful.

The harpies don't "fade into insignificance" until GNR shows up. They do quite a lot before that, while all the Spear is doing is hanging out in front of Yui's throat.

Eh, not so much. They bind Unit 01 and pump out their AATFs and . . . that's it. They presumably handle the heavy lifting of the ceremony as well, but that's more implied than shown (and not really relevant to the mechanics of 3I anyway; not like Lilith couldn't excavate the damn thing herself, after all).

I did get things out of order, though; I should have said "once the Lance went ToL" since that was the deciding point.

[Reichu]

Bagheera: The thing about screenshots and script is that (A) you're putting figures and quotes right in your post, and they make posts that are attempting to explain complicated stuff from the show considerably more compelling even if you don't think so, and (B) the process of putting them together helps ward off the countless silly mistakes that happen when churning out crap from memory.

"Haven't seen anything specific"? As if we haven't discussed any of these things before...! And if you're a scientist, you should be able to look at the problems from multiple angles anyway, not rely completely on others spoon-feeding counterarguments to you. I get the impression that you don't even take opposition to your ideas (as paltry as any response has been) seriously enough to acknowledge them with much more than a wave of a hand, as well. Building up a theory of everything is fun and all, but getting too caught up in perfection and certainty isn't the way to go. (Were it not for the air you gave off at times like this -- which makes me always think, "He's just going to handwave everything I say, isn't he?" -- I probably would not hesitate to engage you in a much more head-on debate. Just an FYI.) In the end, we're just testing possibilities.

I did get things out of order, though

Indeed. Don't think you'll be able to ever get one of those past me.

[Bagheera]

Bagheera: The thing about screenshots and script is that (A) you're putting figures and quotes right in your post, and they make posts that are attempting to explain complicated stuff from the show considerably more compelling even if you don't think so, and (B) the process of putting them together helps ward off the countless silly mistakes that happen when churning out crap from memory.

It won't be from memory; instead it will reference timestamps (and perhaps youtube links, if available) and references to the CI and NGE2 endings rather than screenshots and script quotes. As we saw in the Misato thread we have some regulars who will go to great lengths to distort the meaning of lines that have a plain and obvious meaning; no reason to think less specific quotes won't get similar treatment, which in turn bogs the whole discussion down in petty bickering that doesn't go anywhere.

When considering the argument I don't want people to look at specific frames and lines. I want them to watch the segment in question and see how and why it fits into the whole.

(I dismiss the screenshot method because, as I've said, I've been burned by it one too many times to take it seriously. The only example I still buy is Gendo's final lines to Ritsuko, and that only because the argument stands on its own without reference to screenshots. Just seeing what Ritsuko types on Maya's screen is enough to sell it.)

(Were it not for the air you gave off at times like this -- which makes me always think, "He's just going to handwave everything I say, isn't he?" -- I probably would not hesitate to engage you in a much more head-on debate. Just an FYI.) In the end, we're just testing possibilities.

That's fair, but the counter-argument there is that if you did engage me in a more head-on debate I wouldn't give off that air. Gimme something concrete and I'll engage it accordingly. Gimme something vague and I'll blow it off because, well, it's vague.

But anyway, enough with bogging down this thread. Let's save the rest for the topic in question.

[Karex_Usyrion]

Always found this kind of dubious. Class 2-A is filled with pilot candidates. Their moms are probably on ice somewhere. Seele might've just used those souls for their evil flock, then (in the storyboard, anyway) wanted the kids flown to Germany as backup pilots in case something went wrong with the Kaworu dummy systems.

Agreed. Using them as souls for the MPEs is non-sensical.

A Confederacy of...Calling this non-sensical seems just imperative language prejudiced to support some personal model without any argument; empty, plainly dismissive and misguided. It doesn't contribute any alternative to suggest an answer to the question which is who's souls are in the mass production units. The storyboard collection if anything is one of the artifacts which supports the possibility that the souls are Class 2-A. The text indicates "Touji: I don't know why, but we're all going to Germany. " Not being able to work out a reason indicates there was nothing at all for them it could be for piloting: Touji had been a pilot and Kensuke would be keenly aware of any hint. The explicitly expressed mystery is clearly to imply hidden reasons and sinister reasons are more frequently than not the reasons in TV episodes and EoE for hiding information. How is it more probable that the "moms are probably on ice somewhere" when Unit 03 with Touji's mom's soul gone and when other references suggest Unit 04 (gone too) was to have been piloted by Kensuke hence with Kensuke's mom's soul? The mass production units were made in Germany ; in order to pilot an m.p.u. you wouldn't have to go out to Germany to have to get back again to Japan where you started from... On the other hand you forcibly would have to go to Germany regardless of where next (nowhere in your own skin) if your soul was to be the one placed inside an m.p.u. The dummy plug accentuates higher probability for not needing a pilot than the need for having a pilot because the dummy plug could fail. On the other hand, having a soul for the m.p.u. is indispensable.

[Reichu]

Karex: Hardly a team-up. Don't you see the two of us arguing?

Some points:

- The MPs were actually constructed at seven sites around the world.
- Germany is probably the site of the dummy system.
- There is an established paradigm for maternal souls being suited for Eva cores and for using children as pilots.
- Since Class 2-A is comprised of "Fourth Level Candidates", their mothers are likely in a state wherein their souls can be salvaged into Eva cores as needed. These souls could thus be used for the MP Evas.
- The dummy system would not necessarily be foolproof, and Seele would probably prefer to have some kind of backup as opposed to none.

Granted, I don't know why Toji was going as well. Perhaps Eva-03's core wasn't destroyed? Or perhaps folks have just been reading way more into the dialogue than was ever intended. In any event, the scene was excised and possibly for a very good reason, so it ultimately has no bearing on matters.

Bagheera: One final thing. I did say this (and that it wasn't responded to probably contributed to that vague and familiar sensation of being handwaved...):

"Yui [becoming] a Seed of Life" (...) might just be wishful thinking and completely wrong

This is perhaps the biggest obstacle you have to overcome, since you seem to have built your entire Jenga stack upon it. Only once you have made a convincing case that it was Yui's intention to become a Seed of Life specifically, and not merely an everlasting monument (the usual, straightforward reading of EoE), can you proceed with anything else. Since, without that one element holding steady, the whole thing crumbles.

...good luck.

(BTW, quoting the material is important, because then we know which translation you're using.)

[Bagheera]

One final thing. I did say this (and that is wasn't responded to probably contributed to that vague and familiar sensation of being handwaved...):


This is perhaps the biggest obstacle you have to overcome, since you seem to have built your entire Jenga stack upon it. Only once you have made a convincing case that it was Yui's intention to become a Seed of Life specifically, and not merely an everlasting monument (the usual, straightforward reading of EoE), can you proceed with anything else. Since, without that one element holding steady, the whole thing crumbles.

IMO it's self-evident, what with Unit 01 eating the S2, Fuyu's line about Unit 01 becoming a god, the SDSS (or SEELE) indicating the two fruits business is forbidden, the Lance's response to the S2's activation, the ToL, Yui's display of power after emerging from Lilith, and of course that final Yui/Lilith scene. But I admit that's an argument to be made and not a given.

(BTW, quoting the material is important, because then we know which translation you're using.)

Or I could just tell you. :) I'll be using the platinum subs and the zx version of EoE (with Symbv's corrections).

Karex_Usyrion: The problem with your theory is that there's no reason to do it. The kids are useless without their parents' souls in the Evas. You can use hobos or anyone else just as well, particularly when you're using dummy plugs as pilots.

The idea was scrapped for a reason.

Also, Kensuke was never meant to be a pilot in any incarnation of the script. Unit 04 was unmanned; had its test been successful it would have been piloted by an American.

[Karex_Usyrion]

I don't conclude for any single theory; I am open minded and list possibilities. I'm keeping this Class 2-A theory which I still see with extended narrative value as opposed to discounted. I'm don't see where it was scrapped. There are different answers, sure, but I'm not keeping `hobos r us' (lol). Many hobos are strong willed with forceful characters and a random person is likely to go plain mad. One of the different answers from many posts before is that SEELE also had a way around the human soul requirement (different mechanics from the human `touch' or `dive' `experiments') to imprint Kaworu's pattern on the m.p.u. cores, that is, there are subdivided parts of Kaworu's soul in the m.p.u's. No hobos, no random anyone, no Class 2-A members souls, not human. Supported through simile with the reasoning for Rei I's soul in Unit zero. Many use and even conclude this possibility (nervarchives, evadictionary, etc.)

The MPs were actually constructed at seven sites around the world.

Fandom knows about the seven sites but seven sites producing m.p.u. parts for assembly, or one, two from one site and two, three from another or what (9 m.p.u shown or 12 m.p.u intended don't fit in whole numbers from seven sites)? The human still has to have been where the m.p.u's core is ready if the human's soul is to be used. A pilot can climb in as a pilot anywhere, even alone (Asuka Strikes!).

Germany is probably the site of the dummy system.

Agreed, but honestly have to ask how does this work in disfavor of Class 2-A members having their souls taken for the m.p.u's?

There is an established paradigm for maternal souls being suited for Eva cores and for using children as pilots.

Agreed, within a given timeframe of the storyline before it becomes non-linear. A paradigm only until the realization of the dummy plug.
The symmetrical qualities of the maternal soul - child pairing hints at better chances for the childrens' souls to work in the cores than anyone elses in particular if/when there are mothers' souls missing. Eva Unit 03 being completely contaminated with Bardiel and the way it was pounded into puree are more supportive of Touji's mother's soul being lost than being salvaged.

Since Class 2-A is comprised of "Fourth Level Candidates", their mothers are likely in a state wherein their souls can be salvaged into Eva cores as needed. These souls could thus be used for the MP Evas.

Could be used potentially. Too much `Now that we have dummy plugs, let's focus on the pilots even if we have mothers souls missing...'

The dummy system would not necessarily be foolproof, and Seele would probably prefer to have some kind of backup as opposed to none.

The dummy system was shown to fail (TV episode 19) and not even Gendo had any kind of backup. Gendo demonstrated unusual confidence in the dummy system to the degree of chiding Shinji towards leaving for good and order his record erased. Why would SEELE be presumed to know any better than NERV in this? and while SEELE did have backup plans for the backup plans it was shown not infalible. They were counting on the dummy plug system: Ritsuko's undoing was destroying NERV's dummy plug system, Gendo smiled with the dummy plug system set to destroy Eva Unit 03 and the m.p.u. did have the dummy plug system.

The problem with your theory is that there's no reason to do it. The kids are useless without their parents' souls in the Eva

The kids are useless without their parents' souls in the Evas -- if they are being proposed as pilots, precisely.
On the other hand, not useless but rather pliable, conditioned, part of the program from birth, and convenient as souls to be dominated via Kaworu dummy plugs. Deconstructs to useful and handy instead. Several reasons to do it: starting with providing SEELE the elegant means fitting their signature style and religion to tidy up all the loose ends in Class 2-A.

Kensuke was never meant to be a pilot in any incarnation of the script. Unit 04 was unmanned; had its test been successful it would have been piloted by an American.

Not allowed to be a pilot in any incarnation of the script certainly and certifiably dying to be one throughout TV Series. Not actually allowed still allows for having been in the plans but it did not work out just as much as was never actually meant to be without any further reference.
Unit 04 was unmanned during `the nevada vanishing event' yes, but it was not going to be unmanned, needed a child pilot, therefore it had a soul and the souls that we know of from the Evas up to then had been of mothers from members of Class 2-A. The Marduk Institute front is Tokyo-n centric. The reference for Kensuke as a Unit 04 pilot is from the NGE themed videogames. Where do you get an american pilot from? Which american child with which mother's soul corresponds to this proposed american pilot?

[Reichu]

Karex: Kaworu's soul is not in the cores of the MP Evas. We are told that Adam's "salvaged soul exists solely in [Kaworu]" (emphasis added).

Seele would know that the dummy system isn't foolproof precisely because Nerv HQ has already encountered problems.

honestly have to ask how does this work in disfavor of Class 2-A members having their souls taken for the m.p.u's?

Well, you can disregard that particular bit; broken train of thought.

On the other hand, though, how does the fact that the MPs are constructed in seven places around the world, whereas the storyboard has Toji et al. taken to Germany, settle with the "souls of motherless children" idea?

It's ultimately pointless to argue over this, since the scene was removed and it has no bearing on the movie we got. Had they kept it in some form, the scene might have (like various others) been subject to revisions, and the intent made clearer or changed radically. But we'll never know.

[Karex_Usyrion]

Kaworu's soul is not in the cores of the MP Evas. We are told that Adam's "salvaged soul exists solely in [Kaworu]" (emphasis added).

The references I mentioned for a non-human element in the m.p.u are careful to exclude the terms "salvaged soul" and "Adam" for this reason. They mention "Kaworu's pattern" "imprinted" by different means than "salvaging souls" into the m.p.u. They also highlight that the m.p.u. acted the way they did because they literally had no souls.

Seele would know that the dummy system isn't foolproof precisely because Nerv HQ has already encountered problems.

SEELE would know as in being informed via all the moles and triple agents about the dummy plug rejection but not know as in know any better to turn to some different alternative, too late, rather than to depend on the dummy plug. The dummy plugs were not included in what failed SEELE ultimately, the m.p.u did follow their orders hence the risks turned out to have been calculated.

how does the fact that the MPs are constructed in seven places around the world whereas the storyboard has Toji et al. taken to Germany, settle with the "souls of motherless children" idea?

Doesn't seem someone would objectively concede as a fact, but it could change if you can expand with further reference(s), about the MPs being constructed in the seven places around the world. No one has ever (yet) mastered all references.

It's ultimately pointless to argue over this, since the scene was removed

Reichu, you brought up the storyboard collection. I wasn't going to. I have exposed precepts for Class 2-A members souls via TV Episodes and onscreen EoE. You invoked the storyboard collection to credit your assertion that SEELE needed the kids as backup pilots flown back to Germany. I followed through to clarify the reasoning that would go bankrupt and illustrate that conjecture wise the storyboard collection if anything instead supports Class 2-A souls inside m.p.u. Exploration and the discussion is not concerning a removed scene, the question is not validity of the storyboard collection but whose souls are and/or can be in m.p.u (maybe why it is significant as well). What do you answer for this BTW since you don't uphold any support for Class 2-A? Hobos, none, random person, non-human, something else or no comment? Thanks.

[Bagheera]

The kids are useless without their parents' souls in the Evas -- if they are being proposed as pilots, precisely.

Outside of that role they are ordinary children.

On the other hand, not useless but rather pliable, conditioned, part of the program from birth, and convenient as souls to be dominated via Kaworu dummy plugs.

There is no "program". Again, they're ordinary kids apart from the fact their mothers are on ice somewhere. Unless those mothers are transferred to the cores of Evas the kids in 2A literally have no use to SEELE. Alternate pilots? Possibly. Souls for the MPEs? Not really.

Deconstructs to useful and handy instead. Several reasons to do it: starting with providing SEELE the elegant means fitting their signature style and religion to tidy up all the loose ends in Class 2-A.

They aren't loose ends. Their dead mothers, OTOH . . .

Not allowed to be a pilot in any incarnation of the script certainly and certifiably dying to be one throughout TV Series. Not actually allowed still allows for having been in the plans but it did not work out just as much as was never actually meant to be without any further reference.

That's not how it works. If there's no evidence for the argument there isn't, and you don't get to assume the alternative is equally valid. With no evidence, it isn't!

Unit 04 was unmanned during `the nevada vanishing event' yes, but it was not going to be unmanned, needed a child pilot, therefore it had a soul and the souls that we know of from the Evas up to then had been of mothers from members of Class 2-A. The Marduk Institute front is Tokyo-n centric.

Unit 00 and Unit 02 say "I don't think so." The Marduk project gave us a grand total of one pilot -- Touji Suzuhara. All of the others came from other sources. And of course, it was all a front anyway.

The reference for Kensuke as a Unit 04 pilot is from the NGE themed videogames. Where do you get an american pilot from? Which american child with which mother's soul corresponds to this proposed american pilot?

I get an American pilot from the fact that the unit was built and tested in Nevada. It was an American project, so naturally it'd have an American pilot. Unit 03 would have as well, had it remained in America.

[AuraTwilight]

Also, Kensuke was never meant to be a pilot in any incarnation of the script. Unit 04 was unmanned; had its test been successful it would have been piloted by an American.

This is a weird Typo. You said American when you CLEARLY meant Hikari.

Unit 04 was unmanned during `the nevada vanishing event' yes, but it was not going to be unmanned, needed a child pilot, therefore it had a soul

The testing was only for the S2 Engine, which doesn't require the presence of a soul, and infact it would be INCREDIBLY UNWISE to put a soul in it without putting a pilot in there incase the thing goes fucking berserk with an infinite-energy engine and decides to pull an Adam. Unit 04 was probably soulless.

[Karex_Usyrion]

Outside of that role they are ordinary children.

Not ordinary children. Rei II is as far from ordinary as any child could be, is not even a natural human. Shinji is traumatized far from ordinary, his "self-destructive to the core" lifestyle (TVEpisode 16) is far from ordinary. Asuka is extraordinary, built up in the narrative as a child prodigy, deeply traumatized as well. Kensuke with an obsessive dedication & knowledge for all military aspects far from an ordinary child. I've excluded anything to do or shown during the piloting role. Deconstructed to far from ordinary children.

There is no "program". Again, they're ordinary kids apart from the fact their mothers are on ice somewhere. Unless those mothers are transferred to the cores of Evas the kids in 2A literally have no use to SEELE. Alternate pilots? Possibly. Souls for the MPEs? Not really.

Skeptics are wired in a different way from realists to lock up in denial even in the face of what is left when everything else is stripped away. There is totally a program. TVEpisode 3 Misato pulls up program files for Kensuke and Toji : these are files that list even their genetic information down to details of their Apoptosis pattern. Would files like this be kept for everyone not in a program? Souls better suited for the mass production units than random alternatives and controlled by SEELE, yes, really.

They aren't loose ends.

They aren't loose ends so NERV intelligence, on purpose displayed as Men In Black, are only but a few steps away from them at key moments (TVEpisode 4, 24) ? They aren't loose ends but their phone calls are terminated for security purposes (TV episode 19) ? Deconstructed to they are loose ends.

That's not how it works. If there's no evidence for the argument there isn't, and you don't get to assume the alternative is equally valid. With no evidence, it isn't!

Your manual for how it works seems to be what doesn't work. The only certainty shown is that Kensuke did not get to pilot on TVE or EoE and that does not prove a claim nor provide any evidence that the reason was that it was not ever planned nor meant. Kensuke was in Class 2-A , he didn't drift in from across the steet, there's a reason for him in the class (and the program), he fits the model for a pilot with no mother, his father and other family are part of NERV. I mentioned The NGE videogames which show Kensuke as pilot. The most self-prepared, most eager candidate with the most military tactical and strategic knowledge and weaponry knowledge sounds like a good and intentional fit for the most advanced EVA Unit.

Unit 00 and Unit 02 say "I don't think so." The Marduk project gave us a grand total of one pilot -- Touji Suzuhara.
All of the others came from other sources. And of course, it was all a front anyway.

Unit 00 and 02 supportive of or in disfavor of what? I don't understand if you have a point. The Marduk Institute was running previously and not only for Unit 03. It was a front operation to deceive the nation-based third parties from the true selection criteria and process really controlled by Gendo (and Fuyutsuki) who are even more Tokyo centric as well so therefore momentum is conserved for the precept I presented.

It was an American project, so naturally it'd have an American pilot. Unit 03 would have as well, had it remained in America.

Not an American project: A trans-global project from branches in different countries driven, controlled and financed by the UN, NERV and SEELE as supra national organizations and conspirators. After second impact America is not what it was, likely mostly in ruins after the nuclear exchanges, not leaders and not leading any project. There is no natural nor logical relation nor progression between branch locations and a pilot's nationality. Unit 03 had Toji's mother's soul in it; it could not have any American pilot since Toji had to be the pilot. American pilots for Units 03 and 04 is so devoid of any reference, so without any support material, it is borderline laughable.

Unit 04 was probably soulless.

For the purposes of and during the S2 test. Unit 04 was perhaps core-less during the test but is not viable without a soul outside of the test. Precept still holds: it was not going to be unmanned, needed a child pilot since no dummy plugin system yet, therefore had been planned with and had a soul.

[Jornophelanthas]

While most of this discussion goes over my head (but that's due to a lack of knowledge of cabbalistic symbolism), but I would like to point out one small point:

The harpies don't "fade into insignificance" until GNR shows up. They do quite a lot before that, while all the Spear is doing is hanging out in front of Yui's throat.

1. What the MPEs are doing is called "performing the sacrament" by SEELE/Keel. They encircle Unit-01 and draw(?) symbols representing the Tree of Life in the air.
2. At around the same time, Rei tells Gendo that "Ikari-kun is calling", and merges with Lilith (and Adam). Lilith becomes GNR, and directs her attention towards Shinji inside Unit-01.
3. Third Impact begins.

What I believe the MPEs are doing is summoning Lilith towards Unit-01. Whatever the MPE-ritual specifically consists of, it is directed at Lilith, and Rei therefore senses it in her soul, which is Lilith's. And she feels compelled to act on it.

Therefore, I agree with you that the MPEs fade into insignificance once Lilith actually does arrive.

---Speculation alert
However, I also believe the MPE's were meant to do more. Specifically, I believe they were meant to direct Lilith in directing Third Impact towards SEELE's conception of Instrumentality. Since Lilith is strictly an Angel, it has no will of its own, and needs guidance according to SEELE's wishes. The SDSS provide the manual.

However, Lilith DID acquire a will: because Rei Ayanami had lived as a human being, Lilith was able to understand individuality, and thus how to relate to Shinji as a person. (And Kaworu's memories didn't hurt either.) Which is why Rei/Lilith/Kaworu was able to communicate with Shinji during Instrumentality, and ask him for his decision.

Which brings me to my final speculation: Gendo's plot. Gendo intended to unite both Adam and Lilith into himself, by having Adam grafted in his hand, and by extracting Lilith's soul from Rei and absorbing it as well. Finally, he would have merged with Lilith's body himself. Believing Rei to be unquestionbly loyal to him, Gendo believed that he would have been able to become the dominant soul inside Lilith, and he would have taken over the process of Third Impact, uniting Shinji's and Yui's souls inside of his divine form (Giant Naked Gendo), and destroyed SEELE utterly.
He would not have spared a thought for the rest of the human race, or the Earth for that matter. All that would have mattered to him at that point was being united with his family for all eternity, with absolute divine power to boot.
He would have become a terrible, all-powerful patriarch god, and the entire world would have been locked in that stasis for all eternity.