"Anno intended Rei to be creepy"

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Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:12 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It is indeed. And this is why you don't get to pick and choose. Rei is Rei, not Rei II. Rei II is part of who Rei is, but she is not the whole -- she is the cells that are replaced, a fragment of the whole. Fixating on her and ignoring the rest makes no more sense than pretending Asuka's pleasant demeanor is representative of who she is (same for Shinji, Misato, etc).

Don't mistake one mask for the whole person.


Then it's a question of what makes a person themselves. You're saying it's the soul or any fraction thereof. I'm saying it's continuity of experience.

Rei 1 is Lilith on tour in a mini-yui shell. Rei2 doesn't remember her earlier self (all that is in unit00 or some further fraction broken up between Lilith's body and the clones... debatable) so she should be considered a person in her own right. Rei3 is what happens when you take a blank slate and fill it with memories not it's own from two different sources, but none of those memories are really hers save what happens from the second half of 23 onwards. GNR is even more complicated since Kaworu and/or Adam is in the mix as well.

Basically think of it as a way more complicated version of Regarding Henry.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:20 pm

NemZ: Perhaps the most important point to take from this is that it's confusing and misleading -- especially in the context of a discussion like this -- to refer to "Rei" and mean only "Rei 2" (as if Rei 2 is the One and Only) when there are lots of things that are "Rei".
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:10 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Bagheera: Why is what Armisael does "tricks"? The Angel's actions are represented as a statement of Rei's own feelings and desires: Rei admits as much, and we see Shinji surrender to Armisael's embrace.


I don't think that's an accurate way to put it. All Rei does there is admit she's lonely, and that she wants to be one with Shinji. That does not mean the distorted imagery we see on the part of the Angel reflects Rei at all. It's a mirror, yes, but a twisted one -- one formed while Rei was in the process of being raped.

- Lilith's little legs are quite possibly the deformed leftovers of the Rei cloning project


That's possible, but it's also possible that was due to the Lance fucking with Lilith's ATF. It does tend to do that.

- The harpies' heads burst into deformed faces and random other body parts after 'fusing with Rei'


"fusing with Rei"? I don't recall them fusing with anything. I think the faces there are more an indicator than Lilith has commandeered them than anything. It's hard to tell how much of what we see there is her and how much is their own depraved natures.

They might be, or they might not -- we have no way of knowing how it might have worked out for her. My point was only that we see no signs of damage.


They are still separate entities, even within Instrumentality. That, combined with the fact that Shinji and Asuka are similarly stable (even though we know their problems have not vanished) makes me leery of taking anything in Instrumentality at face value.

EoTV isn't useful in this regard, since the dialogue with the three Reis occurs before Rei reunites with Lilith.


What? No, that's not right. Everything in EoTV Instrumentality occurs after Rei reunites with Lilith.

There is the scene with Gendo prior to the whole bit, but what are we supposed to see there? Should Rei I be giggling like a madwoman or something?

During pre-3II (one of the main "internal world" sequences)? They definitely show their "madness" there. Oh, do they ever.


No, not really. It's not on nearly the same scale. Shinji was near catatonic before he got in Unit 01, and that was before Rei broke his mind into tiny pieces (we can see how that worked with Maya). Even in the worst bits of P3II he's not that bad. Asuka's in much the same boat.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Then it's a question of what makes a person themselves. You're saying it's the soul or any fraction thereof. I'm saying it's continuity of experience.


I'm saying the two can't be meaningfully distinguished. The very complexity you reference is what makes it impossible to treat any one part of that soul as a standalone entity. What you're describing here is the same mental dissonance Asuka experiences when she tries to reconcile the Great Shinji-sama with her wimpy housemate; she can't see how the two can be the same person, but they are. The same is true of all of Rei's incarnations.

View Original PostReichu wrote:NemZ: Perhaps the most important point to take from this is that it's confusing and misleading -- especially in the context of a discussion like this -- to refer to "Rei" and mean only "Rei 2" (as if Rei 2 is the One and Only) when there are lots of things that are "Rei".


Though even limiting it to Rei II can be misleading, since she does not exist independently of the project that spawned her. Is part of Rei I in her? Was Rei I's soul returned to Lilith before pieces were farmed out for Rei II and Unit 00? We don't know. All we know for certain is that Lilith has lots of soul fragments running around, and that they're all part of the same whole. That's part of what makes her so damn creepy to begin with.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:26 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That does not mean the distorted imagery we see on the part of the Angel reflects Rei at all.

How would the Angel just randomly produce imagery that manages to show up again without Armisael's involvement? If Armi is simply manifesting things that already exist in Rei's subconscious (or whatever), then it all makes sense.

That's possible, but it's also possible that was due to the Lance fucking with Lilith's ATF. It does tend to do that.

What are the benefits of / evidence for this "ATF-fucking" assertion, as opposed to the "clone leftovers" theory? The Spear of Longinus pierces ATFs; it doesn't follow that it will make Lilith sprout lots of deformed lower bodies.

"fusing with Rei"? I don't recall them fusing with anything.

The script is your friend.

AOBA:
The Eva series' A.T. Fields are resonating!

HYUGA:
And amplifying further!

FUYUTSUKI:
Has the assimilation with Rei begun?


That, combined with the fact that Shinji and Asuka are similarly stable

I don't understand where you're getting this from. Asuka is hissing and leering at and kicking Shinji, and she's mourning at the kitchen table as well. Shinji is screaming and sulking and throwing chairs and throttling Asuka. There is nothing "stable" about P3II. It's an emotional clusterfuck.

What? No, that's not right. Everything in EoTV Instrumentality occurs after Rei reunites with Lilith.

EoTV specifies when Instrumentality actually begins. Rei's case takes place before that moment (and even ends with Gendo approaching her like he does in EoE: "It's time"). Take another look.

(I'm an Aspy who's managed to memorize most of the show, remember. You should just double-check these things by default. :devil: )
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Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:59 pm

@Reichu: Okay, fair enough.

What were you referring to as the pre3I Rei madness though? I'm not getting a specific thing in mind.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:What? No, that's not right. Everything in EoTV Instrumentality occurs after Rei reunites with Lilith.


...sigh. (insert long pointless concurrency argument here.)

We don't actually know if GNR even exists in EOTV. I actually think Rei did what Gendo asked and took everyone into 01 and just left Lilith hanging.

I'm saying the two can't be meaningfully distinguished. The very complexity you reference is what makes it impossible to treat any one part of that soul as a standalone entity.


I say they can, and since they can argue amongst themselves on this very issue in ep25 even at the point when they are becoming one person again. I'm sorry, I just don't see your problem with doing so. Maybe you didn't spend enough time pondering the philosophical implications of Voltron and Devastator as a child?
Last edited by NemZ on Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:00 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:How would the Angel just randomly produce imagery that manages to show up again without Armisael's involvement? If Armi is simply manifesting things that already exist in Rei's subconscious (or whatever), then it all makes sense.


That doesn't mean it's accurate, though. It's dredging through her subconscious randomly trying to connect with her, all without a care for her stated thoughts on the matter.

What are the benefits of / evidence for this "ATF-fucking" assertion, as opposed to the "clone leftovers" theory? The Spear of Longinus pierces ATFs; it doesn't follow that it will make Lilith sprout lots of deformed lower bodies.


True, but the one might be the product of a messed up field. I'm not saying the Lance did it, I'm saying that it's more a product of an interrupted ATF than necessarily the cloning project per se (and note that the legs go away once the Lance is removed).

I think the evidence works either way, though.

The script is your friend.


Not so much, since when we next see them they don't appear to be connected to Lilith at all. The fields might have fused, but that doesn't appear to hold for the bodies.

I don't understand where you're getting this from. Asuka is hissing and leering at and kicking Shinji, and she's mourning at the kitchen table as well. Shinji is screaming and sulking and throwing chairs and throttling Asuka. There is nothing "stable" about P3II. It's an emotional clusterfuck.


It's nothing compared to how they were before, though. Does Asuka act like she was just dismembered? Does she act like she did in 23 or 24? Nope. Similarly, does Shinji act like he did before getting into Eva, before Lilith made things so much worse? Nope. Look at their scene when they're watching Misato. Look at the beginning of the kitchen scene. They're perfectly calm there. All of P3II is a conversation between them. It's heated and angry, yes, but that's still a lot more than we saw in the real world (and that's nothing compared to EoTV, if we're of a mind for concurrence).

EoTV specifies when Instrumentality actually begins. Rei's case takes place before that moment (and even ends with Gendo approaching her like he does in EoE: "It's time"). Take another look.


Globally, perhaps. But it's clear they're all in one another's minds from the beginning of 25. Rei is not talking to herself there, and Gendo does not approach her in the real world. The timing is weird (Asuka's first case takes place while she's in the lake), but even so it appears to be a part of P3II.

(I'm an Aspy who's managed to memorize most of the show, remember. You should just double-check these things by default. :devil: )


Well, I can't argue with that; you're generally right about script quotes and such, even if I disagree with your interpretations from time to time. So I'm getting better at double-checking. -o-;
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:46 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That doesn't mean it's accurate, though.

The "pale giant with black abysses for eyes", the incessant giggling, the multiplicative body parts -- all this stuff shows up in EoE. Armisael isn't involved. How, then, is what Armisael manifests in 23 "inaccurate"?

I'm saying that it's more a product of an interrupted ATF than necessarily the cloning project per se (and note that the legs go away once the Lance is removed).

I don't recall "interrupted ATFs" resulting in grotesque deformations anywhere else in the show...

BTW, the little legs don't go away until Rei 3 returns to Lilith. When Lilith regenerates, the legs simply relocate.

Not so much, since when we next see them they don't appear to be connected to Lilith at all. The fields might have fused, but that doesn't appear to hold for the bodies.

I didn't suggest that the fusion was purely physical. It starts out being metaphysical, but, due to the link between ATF and body, we see physical repercussions. The harpies don't have grotesque Rei parts before the fusion; afterward, they do.

It's nothing compared to how they were before, though.

More hair-splitting! You were making it sound as if everyone was sitting around sipping tea and chatting civilly about the latest books they've read. Both Asuka and Shinji are an emotional mess: just not in ways perfectly congruous with the outer world.

EoTV: It can't be perfectly reconciled with EoE. It's literally impossible. There's no way to prove that an equivalent to P3II exists and assuming it must be there just makes a big mess of everything. Here, all you can really do is take it on its own word that Instrumentality didn't start until it actually says it starts.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:58 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The "pale giant with black abysses for eyes", the incessant giggling, the multiplicative body parts -- all this stuff shows up in EoE. Armisael isn't involved. How, then, is what Armisael manifests in 23 "inaccurate"?


I admit my argument's murky here. I was thinking more of Armisael's argument than the physical manifestations per se (though I still don't think his making those manifestations is particularly relevant, even if GNR did copy them later).

I don't recall "interrupted ATFs" resulting in grotesque deformations anywhere else in the show...


How often has it come up? All the example that come to mind resulted in death soon after, and they didn't involve beings with the consistency of silly putty.

BTW, the little legs don't go away until Rei 3 returns to Lilith. When Lilith regenerates, the legs simply relocate.


Fair point.

I didn't suggest that the fusion was purely physical. It starts out being metaphysical, but, due to the link between ATF and body, we see physical repercussions. The harpies don't have grotesque Rei parts before the fusion; afterward, they do.


Well, yeah. Beforehand they had their own grotesque parts. :lol:

More hair-splitting! You were making it sound as if everyone was sitting around sipping tea and chatting civilly about the latest books they've read. Both Asuka and Shinji are an emotional mess: just not in ways perfectly congruous with the outer world.


And I think that incongruity, along with the difference in scale of the mess, is significant. I think it also means the fact that Rei's not batshit insane isn't as relevant as it might be otherwise.

EoTV: It can't be perfectly reconciled with EoE. It's literally impossible. There's no way to prove that an equivalent to P3II exists and assuming it must be there just makes a big mess of everything. Here, all you can really do is take it on its own word that Instrumentality didn't start until it actually says it starts.


And yet, people in very different places are clearly having conversations with one another in a non-physical space, just as they did in Instrumentality. Messy or not that is what it is.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby child of Lilith » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:48 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That person was presumably born of human parents, and likewise didn't know she could be replaced thanks to a tank full of clones under a secret military base downtown. Said person also probably didn't have within her the damaged soul of the ancient progenitor of human life.

Rei isn't like other people. Comparing her to people who are mere introverts, or even people who are fully schizoid, is extremely misleading.
Which was why I said they were a little like her. Obviously nobody fully human would make for a perfect comparison, but we must work with the materials at hand Bagheera.

You should stop making assumptions about my character. There's a line for polite discussion here, and you're stepping over it. Step back.
So be it. From here on out I'll refrain from making such comments. I trust you'll do the same?

The question is not "is she worth knowing." The question is "is it possible to know her, and would she be even remotely inclined to let you try?" If Rei were an ordinary person those questions might be answered in the affirmative, but with the Rei in the show the answers are most certainly "no". The only reason Shinji managed it is because of his connections with Gendo and Eva.
I disagree completely. Shingi's connection to Gendo got his foot in the door, but it was his genuine kindness and willingness to reach out to her that caused her to care about him. Anyone willing to do the same has just as much chance as he did. Something I know for a fact from experience with people just as recalcitrant as Rei.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Rei is made of PWM.
Other then her arm falling off in EOE and all the little legs sticking out of Lilith in the TV series. It may never be mentioned directly, but the connections are there.
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Also, I'm very pleased to see all the genuine discussion going on in this thread. Usually by now a Rei thread would have gone off on a tangent, been locked, or crushed under the weight of stealth shipping. It's a good feeling seeing Rei get the serious discussion she deserves.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:01 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:So be it. From here on out I'll refrain from making such comments. I trust you'll do the same?


I usually don't. I'm contrarian and tactless, but I rarely speculate on the motivations or lives of the people in the forums. It's not my business and generally degrades conversation.

I disagree completely. Shingi's connection to Gendo got his foot in the door, but it was his genuine kindness and willingness to reach out to her that caused her to care about him. Anyone willing to do the same has just as much chance as he did. Something I know for a fact from experience with people just as recalcitrant as Rei.


But they aren't, because they aren't dealing with partial soul business and the certain knowledge that they can be replaced. Rei has issues no human being has ever had; her situation is well and truly unique. Connecting with her is not just a matter of being kind and reaching out to her (and in fact that often doesn't work with real people, either; they have to want that connection, and plenty don't).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but she's not just a shy, introverted girl; she's functionally inhuman in many respects. Tempting as it may be to compare her to people we know there are some fundamental differences there that can't be ignored.

(and yes, she's still a person, and still human, but the whole "clone of another person who was literally born in a vat and has the partial soul of a 3 billion year old space god" thing says "NOT QUITE THE SAME, CHIEF.")

Other then her arm falling off in EOE and all the little legs sticking out of Lilith in the TV series. It may never be mentioned directly, but the connections are there.


But again, we have no real reason to believe Lilith is made of PWM either. If she isn't, and Rei's ATF is weak because she's a clone with an partial soul and for no other reason, the whole PWM angle dries up completely.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby child of Lilith » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:31 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But they aren't, because they aren't dealing with partial soul business and the certain knowledge that they can be replaced. Rei has issues no human being has ever had; her situation is well and truly unique. Connecting with her is not just a matter of being kind and reaching out to her (and in fact that often doesn't work with real people, either; they have to want that connection, and plenty don't).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but she's not just a shy, introverted girl; she's functionally inhuman in many respects. Tempting as it may be to compare her to people we know there are some fundamental differences there that can't be ignored.

(and yes, she's still a person, and still human, but the whole "clone of another person who was literally born in a vat and has the partial soul of a 3 billion year old space god" thing says "NOT QUITE THE SAME, CHIEF.")
Not quite the same doesn't equate to entirely different. I'd be the first to say she's not fully human (hell, I already do) but she's not so different ordinary interaction with her will have no effect. Though I'll agree if she's not interested then no amount of kindness or understanding will do any good. Luckly that's not the case.

This whole conversation is very odd. Usually I'm the one pushing Rei's inhuman nature and not the other way around. It's an interesting feeling being on the other side for a change.
But again, we have no real reason to believe Lilith is made of PWM either. If she isn't, and Rei's ATF is weak because she's a clone with an partial soul and for no other reason, the whole PWM angle dries up completely.
If not PWM then what? She's certainly not ordinary flesh and blood. Also, if Adam is made of PWM, so is Lilith. They are both Seeds, and PWM is the only material that could possibly last for billions of years.
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Postby Na7e » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:48 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:Though I'll agree if she's not interested then no amount of kindness or understanding will do any good. Luckly that's not the case.


Her outright rejection of Asuka's proposal of friendship says otherwise. And, while Asuka's gesture wasn't sincere, "If I'm ordered too" isn't someone who's keen on reaching out.

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Postby child of Lilith » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:59 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Her outright rejection of Asuka's proposal of friendship says otherwise. And, while Asuka's gesture wasn't sincere, "If I'm ordered too" isn't someone who's keen on reaching out.
This is as close to a joke as Rei comes in the series. It should also be noted Rei doesn't particularly like Asuka. Even so she trys to help Asuka later in the elevator scene. There's also the time she goes to see Togi on the school roof and the time all three pilots are sitting on that hill watching the power come back on. Interaction with others isn't one of Rei's favorite things, but she's more then willing when she feels like it.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:47 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I admit my argument's murky here. I was thinking more of Armisael's argument than the physical manifestations per se (though I still don't think his making those manifestations is particularly relevant, even if GNR did copy them later).


Other way around, actually. Remember that EoE came first, the DC edits later, so the reason Armisarael does all this creepy shit is because GNR would do it later.

In universe though? I think the extra body parts motif is just a general indication of imperfect copying of another being. It's only a Rei/Lilith thing because this keeps happening to them for various reasons.

Alternatively, remember that Armisael could be drawing some of this inspiration from unit 00. Crazy body horror may just be Rei1's thing.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:48 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:This whole conversation is very odd. Usually I'm the one pushing Rei's inhuman nature and not the other way around. It's an interesting feeling being on the other side for a change.


Welcome to every conversation I have regarding Asuka. :lol:

If not PWM then what? She's certainly not ordinary flesh and blood.


How is she not? Apart from the eyes and hair she seems to be just like an ordinary human. She eats, she bleeds, she cries, she (apparently, given that she showers) sweats, etc. I don't see any indication throughout the show that she isn't physically just as human as anyone.

Don't read too much into the falling apart business in EoE; remember, her soul isn't intact. Since ATFs are manifested by the soul it would stand to reason that hers would be somewhat problematic (it's not weak, mind -- see ep 24 -- but it does seem to be erratic), particularly in the presence of Lilith, who no doubt wants her to return.

They are both Seeds, and PWM is the only material that could possibly last for billions of years.


That's not an issue given their S2 organs.

Also, follow your train of logic through to completion: since the Angels are made of PWM you assume Adam is, and since Adam is you assume Lilith is. But if Lilith is then it would follow that her creations are as well, using the same logic that led you to conclude Adam was made of PWM based on the Angels. And yet, no life on Earth is made of PWM. See the problem? We can't assume the SoLs are made of PWM just because the Angels are.

Moreover, even if Lilith is made of PWM Rei is a clone of Yui Ikari, not Lilith. Yui Ikari was made of normal flesh and blood (presumably), so that means Rei ought to be as well. The strangeness of Rei Ayanami comes from the fact that she is inhabited by the soul of Lilith -- with its attendant AT Field -- and not because she's made of the same stuff Lilith is.

Long story short, Rei doesn't need to be made of PWM, so I tend to assume she's not.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:In universe though? I think the extra body parts motif is just a general indication of imperfect copying of another being. It's only a Rei/Lilith thing because this keeps happening to them for various reasons.

Alternatively, remember that Armisael could be drawing some of this inspiration from unit 00. Crazy body horror may just be Rei1's thing.


Or both. I imagine crazy body horror might be a natural reaction to having one's soul cut up and shuffled through various bodies. Of course, this is just an explanation of the madness, not a refutation of it; I don't think Reichu ever suggested there was no reason for Rei's crazy insane nightmare imagery.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:19 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:How is she not? Apart from the eyes and hair she seems to be just like an ordinary human. She eats, she bleeds, she cries, she (apparently, given that she showers) sweats, etc. I don't see any indication throughout the show that she isn't physically just as human as anyone.


You were arguing earlier that her hair and eye color weren't possible in the human genome as part of why she's supposedly creepy? I'm willing to chalk it up to "lolz anime", but you can't.

Does she eat? We know she CAN, but we don't know that she does so typically. I don't recall seeing any food in her apartment, just pills.

She's hinted to be infertle, which could be evidence of her inhumaness. Not that infertillity isn't possible in humans of course, but it's considered a flaw for us but seems to simply be the norm for her. (well, unless you buy into the ultra-fertile argument... but that's still not normal for a human).

What about the rainbow scanner thing, the same imagery used when analyzing the dead angel?

Don't read too much into the falling apart business in EoE; remember, her soul isn't intact.


It's closer to whole than it was the majority of the series, and I don't recall Rei casually losing parts before that. There have been several idea put forward about why this happens (different thread), but I don't think this idea of yours is a viable contender.

We can't assume the SoLs are made of PWM just because the Angels are.


We assume that because they act like angels in the sense of crazy otherworldly powers. Lilith-based life was created through a long process sepearated many, many layers from Lilith herself, so it's much more reasonble to say that we'd be different than angels that came direct from Adam, possibly even created directly from Adam's blown apart flesh.

Moreover, even if Lilith is made of PWM Rei is a clone of Yui Ikari, not Lilith. Yui Ikari was made of normal flesh and blood (presumably), so that means Rei ought to be as well.


The little dangly legs and a tank full of clones tell a different story, and it's one backed up by the visual evidence that 01, despite being an Adam-clone, was created directly from Lilith's own body. I suspect they implanted Lilith with a genetic seed material recovered from Yui's entry plug, which caused Rei to be grown like Unit 01. Considering 01 was still physically connected to Lilith at this time it even kinda makes sense as a last-ditch attempt to pull her out of that mix.

Or both. I imagine crazy body horror might be a natural reaction to having one's soul cut up and shuffled through various bodies.


Yes, but it means it's coming from Rei1 (the one who actually remembers all this shit being done to her), so that puts the crazy squarely outside of Rei2... and thus the Rei I care about still isn't creepy.

On a related side note, how do you understand Israfel? Is it it one being with one soul that can split into two halves? Is it two beings with two souls that can merge? Is it one being with one soul that can become two beings with two souls?

Now, what implications do your answers there have for identical twins (split in mid-development from a single zygote) or for the various forms of Rei?
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:56 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:You were arguing earlier that her hair and eye color weren't possible in the human genome as part of why she's supposedly creepy? I'm willing to chalk it up to "lolz anime", but you can't.


I said nothing of the sort. What I actually said was "She has bright red eyes and blue hair, which is weird." Red eyes are certainly possible in the human genome -- see albinism, as well as particular shades of brown or gold that amount to the same thing. Blue hair's more problematic, but that doesn't say anything about how she's constructed.

Does she eat? We know she CAN, but we don't know that she does so typically. I don't recall seeing any food in her apartment, just pills.


She has a kitchen there, so her food is presumably put away. Most people don't have food laying about, after all. Also, given the amount of time she spends at NERV HQ it's entirely possible she rarely, if ever eats at home.

She's hinted to be infertle, which could be evidence of her inhumaness. Not that infertillity isn't possible in humans of course, but it's considered a flaw for us but seems to simply be the norm for her. (well, unless you buy into the ultra-fertile argument... but that's still not normal for a human).


I don't think there's any explicit commentary on the subject either way. She's "a woman who doesn't bleed"; that's all we've ever heard on the matter.

(note that Lilith bleeds quite a bit; if we're saying she's supposed to be made of PWM because she's like Lilith infertility is not a great example in support of the argument.)

It's closer to whole than it was the majority of the series, and I don't recall Rei casually losing parts before that. There have been several idea put forward about why this happens (different thread), but I don't think this idea of yours is a viable contender.


We haven't seen her that close to Lilith outside of an Eva before, either. Regardless, as you say there are several options apart from "she must be made of PWM!"

We assume that because they act like angels in the sense of crazy otherworldly powers. Lilith-based life was created through a long process sepearated many, many layers from Lilith herself, so it's much more reasonble to say that we'd be different than angels that came direct from Adam, possibly even created directly from Adam's blown apart flesh.


So, what, our progenitors were PWM but over the course of time became normal carbon-based life? That's more of a stretch than the alternative. And I'll note that Ritsuko never says anything about the Evas being PWM. If they're clones of Adam and they're not PWM why would Adam be different?

The little dangly legs and a tank full of clones tell a different story,


Not really. The clones in the tank could just as easily have been created after the fact (using the same process that created all the other Evas), and the legs aren't specifically Rei any more than anyone else. Lilith is the progenitor of humanity; I'd expect weirdness like that even if Rei had nothing to do with it.

Yes, but it means it's coming from Rei1 (the one who actually remembers all this shit being done to her), so that puts the crazy squarely outside of Rei2... and thus the Rei I care about still isn't creepy.


How do we know what Rei I rememers, or that Rei II doesn't remember same? The specifics of the memories retained from one incarnation to another have always been murky at best.

On a related side note, how do you understand Israfel? Is it it one being with one soul that can split into two halves? Is it two beings with two souls that can merge? Is it one being with one soul that can become two beings with two souls?


The first, though I'm not sure how that's relevant. As with the PWM business the fact that an Angel can do something (and Angel with an S2 organ and a core, no less) has no bearing on the case of Rei.

Now, what implications do your answers there have for identical twins (split in mid-development from a single zygote) or for the various forms of Rei?


Eh? Identical twins separate physically early on and get souls just like any other human (heck, the presence of two souls might be what prompts them to become twins to begin with in the Eva setting). Again, I don't see the relevance to Rei's case. Remember, the Chamber of Guf was empty hen she was created -- getting a new soul wasn't an option.

(How do humans manage it? No idea. But they do, somehow, and whatever they do is explicitly not in play with Rei.)
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Postby Sun Stealer » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:46 pm

While I think Anno intended Rei to be creepy, I don't think he wanted her to be an unsympathetic, inhuman abomination that repulsed us to our very core.
"Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You've read through this entire story so far. To recap, the story has featured Rei wondering if she has become a giant insect and considering wearing a Carmen Miranda hat, Kaji completely blowing off important duties, Shinji and Asuka blowing up a building downtown, Misato driving drunk and nearly killing Rei in a hit-and-run, Fuyutski fearing imminent death from a man dressed as a giant slice of pepperoni, Rei talking to a bagel, and Shinji and Asuka digging up an entire cemetery. And now it's character derailment. Okay."-Esselfortium
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Postby child of Lilith » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:22 am

^Pretty much agree with this. Just don't like using the word creepy because of the implied negativity.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:How is she not? Apart from the eyes and hair she seems to be just like an ordinary human. She eats, she bleeds, she cries, she (apparently, given that she showers) sweats, etc. I don't see any indication throughout the show that she isn't physically just as human as anyone.
Being made of PWM wouldn't necessarily mean she wasn't capable of the full range of bodily functions we humans enjoy. Just that she'd last longer then we would.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Don't read too much into the falling apart business in EoE; remember, her soul isn't intact. Since ATFs are manifested by the soul it would stand to reason that hers would be somewhat problematic (it's not weak, mind -- see ep 24 -- but it does seem to be erratic), particularly in the presence of Lilith, who no doubt wants her to return.
I don't see her having only part of a soul being a problem. It worked fine for her during the show, plus EOE wasn't her first vist to Lilith. Personal i think her arm came off because she had finally decided to abandon her false existence and finally go home.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's not an issue given their S2 organs.
An S2 gives endless power, but it would still need a vessel to hold it.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Also, follow your train of logic through to completion: since the Angels are made of PWM you assume Adam is, and since Adam is you assume Lilith is. But if Lilith is then it would follow that her creations are as well, using the same logic that led you to conclude Adam was made of PWM based on the Angels. And yet, no life on Earth is made of PWM. See the problem? We can't assume the SoLs are made of PWM just because the Angels are.
Life on earth isn't made of PWM because it wasn't designed to last forever like the angels were. Lilith made her children so that they would grow through evolution, unlike Adam who choose to pump out a series of finished products. Being whole from the start they needed the extreme longevity PWM provides. Lilith based life would naturally need the exact opposite.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Moreover, even if Lilith is made of PWM Rei is a clone of Yui Ikari, not Lilith. Yui Ikari was made of normal flesh and blood (presumably), so that means Rei ought to be as well. The strangeness of Rei Ayanami comes from the fact that she is inhabited by the soul of Lilith -- with its attendant AT Field -- and not because she's made of the same stuff Lilith is.

Long story short, Rei doesn't need to be made of PWM, so I tend to assume she's not.
This is another point where our views greatly differ. It's my belief that Rei is mostly Lilith with some Yui added in to give her a human appearance.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:35 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:I don't see her having only part of a soul being a problem. It worked fine for her during the show, plus EOE wasn't her first vist to Lilith. Personal i think her arm came off because she had finally decided to abandon her false existence and finally go home.


I tend to agree.

I will note, however, that being made of something other than ordinary flesh and blood? Creepy as hell. All the moreso if she doesn't need to eat, as NemZ suggests.

Life on earth isn't made of PWM because it wasn't designed to last forever like the angels were.


Where do you get this notion that PWM is eternal? We know absolutely nothing about its properties. Angels and SoLs last forever because of their S2 organs, not because they're made of PWM.

This is another point where our views greatly differ. It's my belief that Rei is mostly Lilith with some Yui added in to give her a human appearance.


Based on what?
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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