"Anno intended Rei to be creepy"

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 59
Posts: 19736
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:50 pm

Taking either Shinji or Touji as proxy everyman, we can safely say that there is nothing ambiently creepy about her. Shinji in particular -- his first action is to white-knight at her, and not "take this thing away!" To see creepy in action, you'd have to do "What if Inori Tsubomiya was the First Children?" at the very least.

Everything else so far advanced as making Rei creepy verges on extended racism.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
Avatar: 三ノ輪銀は勇者である
SHE WAS ELEVEN YEARS OLD
SHE LIKED TO HELP PEOPLE

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:22 pm

Bagheera wrote:Off-putting, bizarre, disturbing, uncanny valley, etc. She's creepy, not horrific.


I guess people can get freaked out by some of the more out-there bits, but I think that's mostly because it's a shock. I'm sure you'd get used to it eventually if that's just how she really is.

Lorkhan wrote:Its only when you start getting into the metaphysical and mental nature of Rei is when things really start getting weird, and when you're first viewing it, none of that really hits you until you start digging deeper.


Yeah, but even then I find it interesting, not disturbing.

Mr. Tines wrote:Everything else so far advanced as making Rei creepy verges on extended racism.


If you mean that in terms of simply fearing the other or unfamiliar, yes.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Lorkhan
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 271
Joined: Dec 29, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Lorkhan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:43 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Yeah, but even then I find it interesting, not disturbing.

This is also true, as I find the metaphysics NGE operates under interesting as well, and more often then not there is nothing terribly unsettling about Rei as a character. Now, if Rei were to show a bit more morbid tendencies in the deep recesses of her mind, maybe we'd all view her as a whole in a much darker light. Thing is, she doesn't (Or so I'm aware.) and the question being asked here is whether or not she was intended to be creepy. Personally, I find one of Asuka's little episodes to be somewhat creepier then Rei as a whole. Biggest incident that comes to mind is what she did to her room in the aftermath of Zeruel. I'm almost thankful they didn't show that tirade. Anyway, biggest problem with trying to off Rei as creepy is because she is shrouded in so much mystery for such a time that we're spending more time wondering "What is up with her." rather then thinking just how weird she is. If we got a chance to peer more into her day to day life, there's a good chance that a few more alarms would be going of in our heads.
"Oh Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching you back!"

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:04 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Taking either Shinji or Touji as proxy everyman, we can safely say that there is nothing ambiently creepy about her. Shinji in particular -- his first action is to white-knight at her, and not "take this thing away!" To see creepy in action, you'd have to do "What if Inori Tsubomiya was the First Children?" at the very least.


Or wait a bit until Shinji learns more about her, when his opinion of her changes considerably. I mean, it goes without saying that he'd view her in a different light when he doesn't know anything about her.

Everything else so far advanced as making Rei creepy verges on extended racism.


Oh, come on. Half the traits presented are based on her personality, which is about as far from racism as you can get.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 59
Posts: 19736
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:37 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:it goes without saying that he'd view her in a different light when he doesn't know anything about her.
Creepy works in the other direction, when you're filling in the unknowns with monsters from under the bed. By the end of episode six, Shinji and Rei have achieved an easy familiarity, as much as either of them are able -- and by that stage he, and we, have a broad idea of her personality.

If at that stage she'd done like this 4koma

SPOILER: Show
Image


then perhaps creepy might be applicable; but anything that takes the circumstances of her creation -- an accident of birth -- to override what you know of the person is prejudice pure and simple.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
Avatar: 三ノ輪銀は勇者である
SHE WAS ELEVEN YEARS OLD
SHE LIKED TO HELP PEOPLE

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:57 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Creepy works in the other direction, when you're filling in the unknowns with monsters from under the bed.


Again, disagreement. Does knowing a guy's a pedophile make him any less creepy to you? It works both ways.

then perhaps creepy might be applicable; but anything that takes the circumstances of her creation -- an accident of birth -- to override what you know of the person is prejudice pure and simple.


But as I said, half of the traits cited stem from her personality. Her disregard for her own existence, stance on making friends, lack of interest in anything around her, slovenly habits, penchant for hanging out with a guy fixated on a girl (apparently) 1/3 his age[1], and general lack of social graces are not accidents of birth.

But past that, faulting her for the circumstances of her birth, while perhaps unfair, is not prejudicial. That isn't what the word means. Freaking out upon learning she has the soul of a deity isn't the result of preconceived notions clouding one's judgment; rather it's what happens when reality hits you in the face at mach 5 and says "hey kids! This girl isn't what you thought she was! Instead, she's a being who can end humanity!" A negative reaction to that little tidbit isn't prejudicial, it's well-founded fear.

Now, if you wanna talk about the hair/eyes or her status as a clone you might have something, but honestly that's such a small part of the picture it's barely worth mentioning. It's her personality and actual nature that are the source of the problem.

[1]Though this admittedly makes Gendo a lot creepier than she is.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Warren Peace
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 86
Posts: 1737
Joined: May 28, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Warren Peace » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:05 am

View Original PostSgt. Griff wrote:You keep Rei next to your bed?


http://www.anime-haus.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=144

(and no, I do not own one.)

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:38 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Her disregard for her own existence, stance on making friends, lack of interest in anything around her, slovenly habits, penchant for hanging out with a guy fixated on a girl (apparently) 1/3 his age[1], and general lack of social graces are not accidents of birth.


Those traits show her as perhaps deeply depressed, likely traumatized, and a victim of parental neglect and/or abuse. None of that is creepy.

Freaking out upon learning she has the soul of a deity isn't the result of preconceived notions clouding one's judgment;


But she can't help those facts man, it's just who she is. It's just as wrong to hold them against her as it would be to find her creepy because of her race, gender, age or sexual preference.

"hey kids! This girl isn't what you thought she was! Instead, she's a being who can end humanity!" A negative reaction to that little tidbit isn't prejudicial, it's well-founded fear.


No, she is still exactly what you thought she was... she's just also more than that. She also has the potential to save humanity so being nice and accepting towards her is an even better idea that fear and rejection.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 59
Posts: 19736
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:01 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Again, disagreement. Does knowing a guy's a pedophile make him any less creepy to you? It works both ways.
I spend time on /a/. Does that answer your question?

But as I said, half of the traits cited stem from her personality. Her disregard for her own existence, stance on making friends, lack of interest in anything around her, slovenly habits, penchant for hanging out with a guy fixated on a girl (apparently) 1/3 his age[1], and general lack of social graces are not accidents of birth.
The first is not really made apparent to those not party to her introspections, the next batch reminds me of me, and the last is a little bit of a "Daddy's girl", but I can live with that.

Freaking out upon learning she has the soul of a deity
Even Rei herself doesn't figure that one out until almost the last minute. What freaks Shinji out is finding that she comes in six-packs. And there is a distinction between plain xenophobia when faced with the functionally indistinguishable from human and rational response to proven existential threat. Is a bomb with the timer ticking creepy?
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
Avatar: 三ノ輪銀は勇者である
SHE WAS ELEVEN YEARS OLD
SHE LIKED TO HELP PEOPLE

child of Lilith
Celestial Serendipity
Celestial Serendipity
User avatar
Posts: 9836
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Egg of Lilith

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby child of Lilith » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:11 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think I see the source of the problem here. You've decided you like Rei, so therefore nothing she does is creepy even if it's something that would have most people going :uhh:
I thought we agreed not to speculate on each others motivations, Bagheera? Or did I just dream that?

Your wrong by the way.

While it's reasonable to make allowances for the fact that the matter is indeed subjective, when you're taking everything that's offered so far -- up to and including possibly not eating -- and saying "oh, that just makes her interesting, not creepy!" you've sufficiently re-defined the word that we can't even meaningfully discuss the subject without talking past one another.
Subjective is subjective, Bagheera. You can't claim an objective limit on something that by it's very nature is entirely subjective. If you try all you're doing is leveraging your own subjective beliefs and trying to paint them as objectives truths. It'll never work.

I would submit that, when taken in toto, most people would find Rei creepy if they knew her in real life. In fact, I believe their reaction to learning just who and what she was would likely mirror that of Shinji in 23 and beyond.
I agree 100%. Thank the stars I'm not most people.
"Let the right one in. Let the old dreams die. Let the wrong ones go. They cannot do, what you want them to do."- Morrissey, Let the Right One Slip In

"Happy people can be so cruel"- Claudia, Silent Hill 3

"everlasting, true love, I am yours"- Rule of Rose

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:19 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:I thought we agreed not to speculate on each others motivations, Bagheera? Or did I just dream that?


That wasn't my intent at the time, but yes, you're right. My apologies.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 5007
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:42 pm

The she is at times played for creepyness doesn't mean you can't like her, or that she has to be interpreted with completely negative connotations.

After all, Asuka can represent "the monsters that sucess-driven societies produce" AND "life, fertility and sex.", and Gendo can be an intelligent, determed, pragmatic man who does what has to be done when no one else will (with Rebuild suggesting that Shinji should follow his example in that respect) while he can still be one epic fail of a father, have an overly pessimistic view of the world and be too scared to handle basic human interaction.
The closest we have to a good guy is Misato, who still gets the hell deconstructed out of her, and even the most indesputable villains have the "greater good" in mind.
To say that Rei is just a Lillith/Yui proxy, and that everyone who interacts with her is just being freudianly misguided is unjust, given how much detail was put into this particular character.
This, for example

View Original PostAnno wrote:Her presence, her existence—ostensible existence—is ephemeral. She’s a very sad girl.


sounds quite sympathetic.
A common misconception is that the Rei fans are in it because they imagine that she will do anything for them since she doesn't seem to mind following orders, being naked etc. but that's not it - If she was like that, she would truly be boring and have no personality, but that's not it - as both her voice actresses put it, it's the spark of humanity that makes her interesting.
She was never actually that "emotionless" - She was a kuudere from day one, getting all bubbly and smiley around Gendo, showing irritation (called such by the script), and taking a keepsake (as a source of comfort) to a dangerous experiment, and her behavior gets pretty close to that of a regular, if somewhat introverted girl in eps 15 to 19/the latter two thirds of 2.0.
The charm with "icy" characters comes with the defrosting, with imagining yourself in the place of the defroster, a very much active role.
All Bleach's Ulquiorra initially got were Emo Jokes - then, he takes an interest in his human prisoner and the concept of the human heart, and suddenly, fangirls. In Inuyasha, the mostly emotionless character of Kanna was mostly ignored untill her death scene revealed that she did have some emotions after all, but she never got much popularity, unlike the very popular character of Sesshomaru - Initially looking like your classic superirity complex villain, it was gradually revealed that he IS capable of kindness and was actually motivated by daddy issues. The stoic, superior, icy exterior helped, but without the "spark of humanity" and the hidden vulnerability, he'd be no different from any other villain of the week.
If ALL Motoko Kusanagi was was a cold, ruthless soldier or, depending on the continuity, a machine that had lost her humanity, no one would care for GiTS - Again, it's the remaining "spark of humanity".
That sort of character is all about vulnerability, even if the male examples (and even some female ones) hide it behind a layer of badass because ppl expect that/discovering the soft side is even more fun if it's well hidden.
It's the same with Rei: fragility appeal - she's pale, always in bandages, her voice sounds like she'll faint at any moment, and she's being used and mistreated by various people. What she evokes is the classic protector's instinct, not the wish to join in the abuse, but to take her from it, the feeling of being needed. The series portrays the protagonist, much more of a viewer-avatar than most of us would like to admit, caring for her and protecting her.
If the intent was to make her someone who Shinji can just step on and gives him what he wants without him having to earn it, then they failed, because her earlier acts of risking her life for him weren't really "directed" at him, she'd have died for anyone. After he saves her ass, it feels like he has earned the proper affection that IS directed at him, and there are various scenes where he has to get his act together, because else, Rei will get hurt, like "I can't be a whiny child here, gotta be a man cause teh chick is in danger", and then, she repays that.
That's really what the appeal of "cold" characters is: The hope that, if you are nice to a person, if you invest in them, you will find something wonderful and earn their love and devotion.
As EoE puts it, Rei is, first and foremost the hope that people can understand each other, as much as she may be wrapped in layers of ugly, creepy things that have to be dealt with first.
(Both Rei and other "icy" characters have other appeals, of course, like "fascination", but my predominant goal with this paragraph was to refute the "You want a sex doll with no personality"-misconception)

Mr. Tines wrote:Taking either Shinji or Touji as proxy everyman, we can safely say that there is nothing ambiently creepy about her.


Sorry, but even I as aRei fan have to disagree here - Asuka, Naoko and Ritsuko were totally creeped out by her, Touji calls her "weird" and says that the ppl in the class keep their distance and think she's somehow balla-balla (Then again, this is, word for word, exactly what the ppl bullying me used to say about me, and the way Asuka acts towards Rei is also like that... So the way Rei is treated is no cosmic horror symptom, it's a dramatic exxageration of real life people with no social skills. She is relatable, shockingly so, as is "those are scenes from my life",(much like most of the other main characters, actually. They're all very real in certain ways, and Rei is no exception) contrary to what her haters say. Her classmates only percieve her as "socially akward kid" kind of weird - for example, Hikari fears that she might sway touji away from her, and Touji expect her to get angry if Shinji touches her stuff. it is also possible for nomal people like Touji and Kensuke to get insights into her (Touji: "You're worried about Shinji, aren't you?" Kensuke: "*analyzes her quite accurately in ep 14* Various Rebuild Characters: "It's teh luv"))

Shinji approaching her is actually him showing his virtues: At first, he was all alone as well, and he knows it sux, so when he sees that someone else is also alone, it keeps him thinking.

Is is, however, to be noted that the characters who despise her tend to be those who project someone else onto her - Ritsuko really hates Yui, and Asuka actually hates herself/her mother/associates Rei with stuff from her own childhood - Misato, who works with her on regular basis, treats her pretty normally and is even a little protective about her, not to the same degree as she is about Shinji or Asuka, but it's there. In episode 16, she tells both girls to stop fighting and includes Rei in "Those kids are doing what they want...." (And in truth, she DID actually argue with Asuka/follow the other two without waiting for orders, not too different from a normal, if somewhat withdrawn teenager. )
Once Shinji's friends spend more time around her, they keep thinking she's a little strange, (because well, she is) but they don't seem to mind her. (Touji treats her pretty much like a normal classmate by eps 17/18, and she returns that as she hesitates to shoot unit 03, just like a normal classmate would do ) not to say anything of Shinji himself, who seems pretty comfortable talking to her about his various fears and worries. (when he doesn't happen to be touching her boob, that is. )
Of course, he's shocked when he learns the truth, but it IS a huge revelation, anyone would need time to "digest" that, also, part of his uncertainty came from the fact that the girl he knew for the past months in basically dead, and the one in her apparment is sorta her, but not really her.
They still part with a "Thank you".
So from what we have seen, those who really get to know Rei have little problems getting along with her, in contrast to those who don't really know her.
So while the "Lillith/Yui frankenstein" is, of course, a creepy concept, Rei-the-individual is apparently quite nice once you get to know her.
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Stryker
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Posts: 3812
Joined: Mar 05, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stryker » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:25 pm

Pardon to pick off an old subject, but..

View Original PostNemZ wrote:None of that seems uncanny to me in the slightest. I'd assume she's just a shy albino girl who gets bored in class.


That doesn't explain why she didn't ever make friends since 7th grade. Sure, she may be "shy", but that sure as hell doesn't explain why she wouldn't have made any friends for at least two years. Also, looking up Albinism right now, don't think she could be counted as Albino. Granted, not everyone knows what melanin is...



View Original PostNemZ wrote:Gendo keeps her at a distance, treats her like a thing except for the few times when he forgets to keep his barriers up or when he's intentionally trying to manipulate her. These are all his issues, not mine.


I understand that those aren't your issues. I don't mean them to be. I'm just trying to get people to empathize with Ikari. Like, I mean, how can you deal with that thing? That monster you created that looks human. Yeah, she's a tool, but she's a weird tool... you know, like a tonsil guillotine, except without that imprecision in her capabilities.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Rei's origins are certainly unique, but why should that concern my impression of her as a person? That's just the way she is. Body parts falling off and so on... that's a sign of something going wrong, a symptom of an illness. Just about everything normal people do while sick is disgusting too, but I don't hold that against them.


Yes, but of course! We shouldn't judge her because of her awkwardness. I'm not saying that. Rather, I'm trying to be polite in saying, "You're pretty smart, now lets try to see her in stupid people's eyes. See how weird she is?"
Avatar: The Old Master.
The Moats of Quotes
"Life is becoming more and more indistinguishable from Onion articles." ~Monk Ed
"Oh my gods, that is awesome. I am inclined to forgive both Grant and the dub in general for that." ~Bagheera
"I don't try to engage in intelligent conversation here anymore."~Chee
"Look, if loving a clone of your mom is wrong, I don't wanna be right." ~Chuckman

|Why angels fight.|What Bagheera is talking about.|

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 5007
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:04 pm

View Original PostStryker wrote:That doesn't explain why she didn't ever make friends since 7th grade. Sure, she may be "shy", but that sure as hell doesn't explain why she wouldn't have made any friends for at least two years.

,
That happens to regular ppl without social skills.

As for Gendo, I'm not sure that its right to say that he sees her as some Monster - in the end, he is her creator, intends to use for what she was created for, and the fact that she looks like Yui will always be in the background, so it's different from her bond with Shinji who gets no profit out of it and basically made friends with her because she's another lonely kid, but things aren't black and white.

Sure, there are things that he cares about more than Rei, one such thing being Yui, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about Rei at all - You could say that it's not enough, but he seems genuinely attached to her - In ep 19, when she blows herself up, he has drops of sweat running down his face, his feautures being completely beyond his control - He needn't be concerned for his plan, since he has replacement clones in the cellar, so he is really worried about her. And he asks her about school, wich is completely unrelated for the problem. His concern about her is not something that turns up once in a while, we see sighns of it every other episode. He has lunch with her, and has apparently given her enough input for her to act shockingly normal around him, with her entire body language changing. Fuyutsuki even calls him out on getting to concerned about her - Fuyutsuki, who is usually the more sentimental and /or moral of the two.
He named her what he would have called his own daugher - He does have a bond with her that is specific to Rei as a daugher of sorts, something that isn't just a leftover from Yui, even tough the yui factor is, of course, always in the background - He's not the type to take pity on a test subject that doesn't have anything to do with him. (For instance, we never see him interact with Asuka)so that relationship would not exist in the first place if she wasn't made from Yui. But that doesn't mean it's not there.
He does use her for experiments, but he keeps her company.
Yeah, he is willing to put her in danger, but that's because he's extremly pragmatic: If he can avoid having Shinji and Rei injured, then he will, but if the alternative is "poof, end of the world", then he has no qualms with pulling them in danger, because he thinks he has to.
In his mindset, caring about her and involving her in his plans is nocontradiction.
Remember his brief segment ep 25: While his primary goal is certainly to get his wife back, one must not forget that he genuinely thinks his plan is the only way for humanity to have a future.
Also, he doesn't have much to give, he's a tired, embittered old man. He probably doesn't think he can handle any interpersonal interaction beyond the level he has with Rei.

I don't think there's a basis to say that he regards Rei as some thing he created which he is wary of - If anything, he trusted her too much: He never expected her to rebel, and confided in her to the point of telling her that Naoko tires and annoys him.
Sure, he knows about her less than human aspects, but he thinks he has those under control - if anyone is creeped out by Rei, it's sure not Gendo.
Note that Rei herself (the second version that is), associates him with "clear and agreeable [like water]"
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Stryker
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Posts: 3812
Joined: Mar 05, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stryker » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:44 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That happens to regular ppl without social skills.


And uh, there isn't a single person who is without social skills. They might not have very many, but everyone needs to know how to communicate. Hell, it's a sense for crying out loud.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:As for Gendo, I'm not sure that its right to say that he sees her as some Monster - in the end, he is her creator, intends to use for what she was created for, and the fact that she looks like Yui will always be in the background, so it's different from her bond with Shinji who gets no profit out of it and basically made friends with her because she's another lonely kid, but things aren't black and white.


I believe it is safe to say Gendo see's her as a monster. How do you think Dr. Frankenstein saw his creation? That's what Rei is, except that Rei has a purpose (originally, she was a mistake.).

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Sure, there are things that he cares about more than Rei, one such thing being Yui, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about Rei at all - You could say that it's not enough, but he seems genuinely attached to her - In ep 19, when she blows herself up, he has drops of sweat running down his face, his feautures being completely beyond his control - He needn't be concerned for his plan, since he has replacement clones in the cellar, so he is really worried about her.


I guess you're right there. In this sense, the relationship between Gendo to Rei is like of George to Lennie in Of Mice and Men: I care about you, but I wish I didn't have you. Although, all you need to do is add the "I'd rather have Yui" and you got it. George does worry about Lennie, but he wishes he didn't have to deal with him. I guess to Gendo, it's kinda like, "She's a real chore, but I love her." A chore in the sense that the person is your responsibility. I mean, look who goes to save the damsel when she fell 80 metres in a metal tube? Of course, he'd rather not, but since he feels love and compassion(?) for Rei (and that nobody else would probably go), he would save her. Kinda like how George save's Lennie's ass every time he got in trouble.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And he asks her about school, wich is completely unrelated for the problem. His concern about her is not something that turns up once in a while, we see sighns of it every other episode. He has lunch with her, and has apparently given her enough input for her to act shockingly normal around him, with her entire body language changing. Fuyutsuki even calls him out on getting to concerned about her - Fuyutsuki, who is usually the more sentimental and /or moral of the two.


I think this happened specifically in NME: We got to keep it separate. The characters in NME are different: Rei is much warmer and closer to people then in NGE, and Gendo seems to show more compassion for those around him.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:He named her what he would have called his own daugher - He does have a bond with her that is specific to Rei as a daugher of sorts, something that isn't just a leftover from Yui, even tough the yui factor is, of course, always in the background - He's not the type to take pity on a test subject that doesn't have anything to do with him. (For instance, we never see him interact with Asuka)so that relationship would not exist in the first place if she wasn't made from Yui. But that doesn't mean it's not there.


You know, I think what happened there is, "aw shit, I got this weird ass child thing instead of Yui. . . what the hell am I going to call her? Uh. . . Yui always wanted a kid named Rei, so. . Yeah! Let's do that one!" I mean like, if there was a name that was stuck in my head (or, at least, my wife who always wanted to name the girl "Rei" stuck in her head), and there was this one kid I'd have to name, I think it would be whatever name she thought up for. . It is possible, but I don't think it makes Gendo any warmer to Rei. 'Just means he could think on his toes to me.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:He does use her for experiments, but he keeps her company.
Yeah, he is willing to put her in danger, but that's because he's extremly pragmatic: If he can avoid having Shinji and Rei injured, then he will, but if the alternative is "poof, end of the world", then he has no qualms with pulling them in danger, because he thinks he has to.


That's textbook Sun Tzu right there. In The Art of War, it states that you should "treat your soldiers like your sons; you love them, yet you don't fear to put them in danger." Of course, I paraphrase, but that is military common sense. I don't think Gendo did this because of any other reason. Of course, what he did with Bardiel was stupid, he is a tactful commander who probably did his homework. He wants to keep Rei close because he wants her to work for him. But that's probably as close as we get as far as in this standpoint.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Remember his brief segment ep 25: While his primary goal is certainly to get his wife back, one must not forget that he genuinely thinks his plan is the only way for humanity to have a future.
Also, he doesn't have much to give, he's a tired, embittered old man. He probably doesn't think he can handle any interpersonal interaction beyond the level he has with Rei.


That's true, but I fail in seeing how this relates to how Gendo seeing Rei more then just a tool. Maybe I slashed too soon. . .

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I don't think there's a basis to say that he regards Rei as some thing he created which he is wary of - If anything, he trusted her too much: He never expected her to rebel, and confided in her to the point of telling her that Naoko tires and annoys him.
Sure, he knows about her less than human aspects, but he thinks he has those under control - if anyone is creeped out by Rei, it's sure not Gendo.


I think I might have digressed from my main point, which I do apologize for. But I can see why Gendo wouldn't be creeped out by Rei. But, how can he not find her uncanny? She's human, but she isn't at the same time. I'm not saying that Gendo finds Rei creepy, but more or less that Rei could turn Gendo off, if that's a correct term.


I think I'm going to stop arguing this point now. I feel as if I am forcing my opinion onto others, and although that is what debate is, I feel that I might be taking it too far. People have different purviews of Rei, and although I see how people can find her creepy, I don't understand why more people don't find her uncanny.
Avatar: The Old Master.
The Moats of Quotes
"Life is becoming more and more indistinguishable from Onion articles." ~Monk Ed
"Oh my gods, that is awesome. I am inclined to forgive both Grant and the dub in general for that." ~Bagheera
"I don't try to engage in intelligent conversation here anymore."~Chee
"Look, if loving a clone of your mom is wrong, I don't wanna be right." ~Chuckman

|Why angels fight.|What Bagheera is talking about.|

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 5007
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:03 pm

1. I have spent years in places without making friends (I can count the few I had with my fingers, tough all of these were very close friendships), and I'm not the most introverted person I know of. These people are thought of as weird and creepy by their fellow students - in fact, that is the friendlier version because the alternative is to be completely overlooked/ignored.
Rei is a slightly more extreme tweak on a type of ppl that really exist, just like Asuka and Shinji are - not every uber ambitious girl saw their mom killed in front of them, or do throw themselves on thirty year old men, and yet, none of you will dispute that she is based on real life ppl who either got some trauma from their parent's divorce, put unheralthy pressure on themselves to have A grades and conform to ludicrous ideals of beauty, act slutty because they wan't to be "adult" or all of the above and thus has a basis in reality. It's the same with Rei.

2. But he isn't Frankenstein. Just because Gendo created her doesn't automatically mean he thinks of her as a monster. There's nothing particulary monstrous about her. A little spooky? Perhaps, but montrous? Seriously? If he thought that was a monster's face, he would have gotten another wife XD The blue hair isn't that abominable.
Do you think of anything you make as a monster by default?
Then I don't wanna eat your cooking. Frankenstein called his creation a monster cause it wasn't as he intended it to be/wasn't pretty/cause he thought he made a mistake. Gendo has no reason to do either of that. He doesn't do "My god what have I done". I mean, she works. She's a perfectly operational EVa-pilot-and-third-impact-o-mat and seemed to be perfectly loyal until he learned otherwise a little to late.
She isn't fully human, but he think's he's fully in control of the nonhuman aspects, he created her to harness those, so he doesn't have to be creeped out by those any more than a builder needs to be creeped out by a hammer. He didn't mind that substantially creepier, notably more monster-y Adam embryo put into his hand, and fucked a depraved old hag for information. I think he's just fine with Rei. She should be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below both his creepyness tolerance level and the point at wich he will call something monstrous.

3. Actually, no. Everything I quoted is from the original series:
Episode 14: Fuyutsuki calls him out on worrying too much about Rei.
Episode 17: He asks her about school
Later that episode: Just after he and Ritsuko discuss the EVA 03 business, I think. They're finished with the tube session, so Gendo asks her to go eat with him. He says it casaully, without her showing a special sort of reaction, implying that they do it regularly. Unlike in Rebuild, we don't get to see it, but it still happens.
Episode 5: He arrives, and of all sudden, she jumps down to where he is and starts talking and smiling to her. Similar, if more subdued outburst of rare lip movement can be observed whenever she stares at his glasses, called smiles by the script, so it's not just me reading stuff into it.
Episode 15: More or less the same - Another tube session. She smiles at him, he smiles back.

4. The name thing: If there wasn't any meaning to it, why even include it? On its own, it may not say much, but together with other semi-fatherly gestures...It isn't far fetched for him to think, "Well, she has Yui's genes, and I created her, so it's just like the two of us had another kid."
In fact, he might just have named her that way in an act of defiance towards fate, as if to say "Fuck you universe for not letting me and Yui stay together for longer, with all that would have entailed."

5.Rei isn't much of a "chore" He doesn't allow her to become one, because he can't take a proper household with resposibilities in it, partially because he's busy "saving" the world and partially because of his very own shortcommings, which is why he does mantain a certain distance, but that's because Gendo is Gendo, not because Rei is Rei.
From what we see, she's pretty self-sufficient, lives in her own appartment, buys her own stuff (It certainly doesn't look like someone planning to suck up to her picked any of it - In fact, it is implied that she likes her living space to look the way it does, because, like many other people, she gets nostalgic for the place she grew up in, (or simply sticks to what she knows) which, in her case, happens to be a lab. Which in turn implies that she had some say in her living arrangements. Probably, she just went and picked the cheapest possible option because she didn't know why she should need or want a more expensive one) all the "maintenance" on her is done by Dr. Akagi, and, at least as far as Gendo knows, is perfectly obedient and trustworthy because he created her to be that way - He has her do the lance business, sends her to intercept Kaworu... You know, "covert operations", highly sensitive parts of his own plan.
So technically, all he needs to do is to throw her some bills once in a while.

6.Of course he'd rather have Yui, but how does that prove that he wishes he didn't have Rei? If you would rather have a large limousine, does that mean you wish you didn't have a car at all?

The annoying person he has to put up with because of the plan, but actually couldn't care less about/finds to be an annoying thing he has to take care of, that's Ritsuko. And, as Ritsuko herself notes, Rei doesn't get treated like her.
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

ReiAyanami25
Israfel
Israfel
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 469
Joined: Sep 05, 2011
Location: Transience
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ReiAyanami25 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:50 am

Rei cannot be compared to a monster, she is very far from it. People may observe and believe her to be 'creepy', but some also do not. It is a matter of opinion.
生は、死の始まり。そして再生は、夢の終わり。
"I write only because there is a voice within me that will not be still." - SP
_______________________________
"Computers are dumb, you have to be specific." ~ Xanderkh
"One day, when Spock isn't out to get me, I'll own my own strawberry farm!" ~ Fe

____________________________________
Rei Ayanami's beauty comes from the truth that she has feelings...the struggle to draw your feelings forth, the reconciliation between your surface and your death - that, I believe, is where we truly become alive, truly become human beings." -Hayashibara Megumi

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 59
Posts: 19736
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:17 am

View Original PostStryker wrote:And uh, there isn't a single person who is without social skills. They might not have very many, but everyone needs to know how to communicate.
Do I need to explain autism to you?

I think this happened specifically in NME: We got to keep it separate.
Some but not all. Episode 5, Rei and Gendo talking; episode 17, Gendo inviting Rei to lunch (with Ritsu going all green-eyed in the background).
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
Avatar: 三ノ輪銀は勇者である
SHE WAS ELEVEN YEARS OLD
SHE LIKED TO HELP PEOPLE

Azathoth
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3495
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
Location: somewhere under noctis labyrinthus

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:49 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Do I need to explain autism to you?


At the risk of stating the obvious, Rei isn't autistic. The reason she doesn't have any friends is because she's an evil alien with a death wish.
Nothing is so valuable that it need not be started afresh, nothing is so rich that it need not be enriched constantly.

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3294
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:09 pm

How on earth could Rei possibly be construed as evil? She is by leaps and bounds the most selfless character in the show, rivaled only by perhaps Kaworu. Whenever she shows any sort of will-power, drive, or motivation, it's always to advance someone else's well-being, and claims to have an empathy and connection to "all people."
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests