"Anno intended Rei to be creepy"

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Postby NemZ » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:38 pm

I don't know how to reply to this with the omnislashing. Sorry?

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I said nothing of the sort. What I actually said was "She has bright red eyes and blue hair, which is weird."


Must have got you mixed up with something Stryker said. Sorry about that. I still don't find her appearance creepy in any way though.

She has a kitchen there, so her food is presumably put away. Most people don't have food laying about, after all. Also, given the amount of time she spends at NERV HQ it's entirely possible she rarely, if ever eats at home.


That's all possible, sure. I just know that the only time we have any indication of Rei eating is her ordering garlic Ramen. Aside from that she might just subside on IV nutrients or something... Hell, maybe she absorbs nutrients from bathing in LCL? Who knows?

I know it isn't technically applicable, but Rebuild might suggest this was the case in the original and it was just never spelled out.

(note that Lilith bleeds quite a bit; if we're saying she's supposed to be made of PWM because she's like Lilith infertility is not a great example in support of the argument.)


True, which is why I suspect the hyperfertility theory is probably the strongest one if only for symbolic reasons.

Regardless, as you say there are several options apart from "she must be made of PWM!"


Thinking about it a bit more, I suspect the answer is something to do with her swimming in the destrudo-bombed clone tank earlier. Her falling apart in a slower but similar way as the others makes some sort of sense and means Ritsuko's "I killed Rei" was nearly factual.

So, what, our progenitors were PWM but over the course of time became normal carbon-based life? That's more of a stretch than the alternative. And I'll note that Ritsuko never says anything about the Evas being PWM. If they're clones of Adam and they're not PWM why would Adam be different?
.

Why not? ATFs and PWM are basically sci-fi magic bullshit so anything is possible with the stuff. We know for a fact they can be interchanged since 01 steals parts from angels and turns them into working arms on several occasions, including repairing the presumably non-PWM armor in ep1.

At the point in the story where that comes up Ritsuko is very much still keeping secrets, so the evas having this composition as well wouldn't be a surprising omission.

The clones in the tank could just as easily have been created after the fact (using the same process that created all the other Evas), and the legs aren't specifically Rei any more than anyone else.


Lilith doesn't have those crazy little bits in the shots of her still merged with 01, so it had to have happened afterwards.

Lilith is the progenitor of humanity; I'd expect weirdness like that even if Rei had nothing to do with it.


...wait, so you're dividing Lilith and Rei up in your mind now too? Only a few more steps and we'll be in agreement.

The first, though I'm not sure how that's relevant.


I'm just trying to look at another in-show example of a being that can be split up, wondering how all this might relate to the question of how we decide whether a being is one or two. The fact that the two halves of Israfel are not physically identical yet act as one is something I find rather interesting... it could go either way for me.

Same thing with the twins question, really. Where does this new soul come from? When is it acquired? Does it split with the twin zygote or do two souls need to be there to start with? If it comes from the mother, does that mean that ultimately all of humanity really is just one person in multiple bodies?

This may not be directly related to figuring out Rei, but the mechanics of souls is clearly a core of the discussion here and looking at other cases of soul division, creation or even combination might help illuminate her specific case by extension. Not that I expect we'll solve any of this of course, but just because it's interesting and any theory about all this stuff should have some level of consistency.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Wouldn't the PWM debate be more suited to here or elsewhere?

NemZ: Rei doesn't swim in the "destrudo-bombed" tank. She just stares at it a lot.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:23 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:True, which is why I suspect the hyperfertility theory is probably the strongest one if only for symbolic reasons.


I generally agree, but if she doesn't bleed . . .

Thinking about it a bit more, I suspect the answer is something to do with her swimming in the destrudo-bombed clone tank earlier. Her falling apart in a slower but similar way as the others makes some sort of sense and means Ritsuko's "I killed Rei" was nearly factual.


Who knows? :shrug: It could be anything, really.

Why not? ATFs and PWM are basically sci-fi magic bullshit so anything is possible with the stuff. We know for a fact they can be interchanged since 01 steals parts from angels and turns them into working arms on several occasions, including repairing the presumably non-PWM armor in ep1.


That's just it, though; given the way ATF wankery works there's no need to invoke PWM to explain anything. ATFs literally cover all of it. The construction of the Angels is a bit of trivia, nothing more.

At the point in the story where that comes up Ritsuko is very much still keeping secrets, so the evas having this composition as well wouldn't be a surprising omission.


Sure, but like you said it surely doesn't apply to the armor at the very least. So why would it apply to the Eva? We don't have any indication at all that there's anything exotic about their construction (beyond the obvious).

Lilith doesn't have those crazy little bits in the shots of her still merged with 01, so it had to have happened afterwards.


You mean after she was torn in half? Sure. Break open the progenitor deity and get all sorts of weird shit coming out. She's an SoL piñata, that's mythology 101.

...wait, so you're dividing Lilith and Rei up in your mind now too? Only a few more steps and we'll be in agreement.


They share a soul, not bodies.

This may not be directly related to figuring out Rei, but the mechanics of souls is clearly a core of the discussion here and looking at other cases of soul division, creation or even combination might help illuminate her specific case by extension. Not that I expect we'll solve any of this of course, but just because it's interesting and any theory about all this stuff should have some level of consistency.


True, true. It's not clear to me where souls come from once life is doing its thing post-SoL, but it is clear Rei didn't get hers from that source (whatever it may be). I don't know why, but it is what it is. :shrug:
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Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:12 pm

Bagheera, I didn't make that last post so you'd just ignore it. There are a lot of topics that relate to why Rei is creepy, but they're all very broad and could best be discussed in devoted threads, which you can probably find without much trouble. Can we stop all this omnislashing and be a little more focused?
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Postby child of Lilith » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:57 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I tend to agree.

I will note, however, that being made of something other than ordinary flesh and blood? Creepy as hell. All the moreso if she doesn't need to eat, as NemZ suggests.
Not to me. In fact I find the idea of her not really needing to eat fascinating, and I think I'll add it to my list of musings about Rei.

Where do you get this notion that PWM is eternal? We know absolutely nothing about its properties. Angels and SoLs last forever because of their S2 organs, not because they're made of PWM.
I should clarify that I meant forever when compared to ordinary human flesh. It's anyones guess just how long PWM will actually last. But from a ordinary human perspective it might as well be forever.

Based on what?
Based on her looks, personality, that I believe she's made of PWM, and a whole bunch of other small things. There's really no one one thing to hang the idea on. It's just the overall impression I get from her.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:47 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:Not to me. In fact I find the idea of her not really needing to eat fascinating

Considering this practically makes her an homunculus, I'd have to go with Bagheera.

Wait a minute, an echo of another human, only a fragment of a soul...

Rename her "Indifference" and throw her into the FMA cast... or alternatively Buso Renkin where she can go live on the moon.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:31 am

Some people think snakes are creepy. Others keep them in cages next to their bed.

Also: the creepiest actions of Shinji are WAY beyond anything Rei did. He's the one we should ask about.

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Postby BulletShoot » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:21 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Some people think snakes are creepy. Others keep them in cages next to their bed.

Also: the creepiest actions of Shinji are WAY beyond anything Rei did. He's the one we should ask about.


I'd say that is probably due to the fact that when Rei does something "creepy" it's creepy because it's something no human would do. Where as when Shinji does something "creepy" it's enhanced by the fact that you know somewhere out there is some sick fuck who has masturbated over a teenage girl's comatose body.
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Postby Sgt. Griff » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:43 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Some people think snakes are creepy....


You keep Rei next to your bed?

Anyway, to weigh in on this issue, I would have to say Rei isn't so much creepy as other mediums (COAEG) make her out to be, if she were to be considered creepy, one would surely not interact with her, so if they didn't interact they would only see a enigmatic blue (possibly hipster) haired girl.

Nuthin' creepy 'bout dat my African-American brother.
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Postby child of Lilith » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:45 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Considering this practically makes her an homunculus, I'd have to go with Bagheera.
Your loss.
Wait a minute, an echo of another human, only a fragment of a soul...

Rename her "Indifference" and throw her into the FMA cast... or alternatively Buso Renkin where she can go live on the moon.
Hell no! FMA sucks! Well except for the ending to the first series that is. Or more specifically the run up to the ending.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:10 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:Not to me.


I think I see the source of the problem here. You've decided you like Rei, so therefore nothing she does is creepy even if it's something that would have most people going :uhh:

While it's reasonable to make allowances for the fact that the matter is indeed subjective, when you're taking everything that's offered so far -- up to and including possibly not eating -- and saying "oh, that just makes her interesting, not creepy!" you've sufficiently re-defined the word that we can't even meaningfully discuss the subject without talking past one another.

I would submit that, when taken in toto, most people would find Rei creepy if they knew her in real life. In fact, I believe their reaction to learning just who and what she was would likely mirror that of Shinji in 23 and beyond.
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Postby Dream » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:25 pm

I think I see the source of the problem here. You've decided you like Rei, so therefore nothing she does is creepy even if it's something that would have most people going


To be honest, i think it's more that she doesn't mind that kind of stuff as much as you do because of the kind of person she is (and i don't really or completely find Rei creepy either).

There are quite a number of things that already get me a bit "eh..." but ultimately i always hold a great deal of sympathy or even tears for her, i always though Anno intended Rei to be felt as an extremely sad and unfortunate/doomed character, someone who you would cry for instead of being creeped out by her.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:32 pm

I still don't see why it has to be an either/or thing.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:10 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think I see the source of the problem here. You've decided you like Rei, so therefore nothing she does is creepy even if it's something that would have most people going :uhh:


And you've decided she's creepy, so no argument can convince you she isn't. Big whoop.

Maybe 'most people' need to get over their shit. Granted a lot of this depends on presentation; if you just get hit with all this right up front I can see people being overwhelmed, sure, but the series doesn't do that.

As a charecter I don't see her as creepy at all. As a concept there might be some Lovecraftian sort of element to being confronted with a reality that redefines how we thing about ourselves and out place in the universe, but that sort of thing doesn't really bother me at all. I'm pretty much in agreement with the viewpoint that the universe is indifferent to our existence, choice is an illusion and life is ultimately meaningless except to ourselves anyway, and I don't see instrumentality as necessarily a bad thing. Either I'm right and nothing is lost or I'm wrong and everything actually is better than expected... win/win.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:58 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Maybe 'most people' need to get over their shit.


"Get over it" how? Are you suggesting people shouldn't be allowed to find her creepy? Good luck with that.

Me, I think people need to get over black and white thinking and deal with the fact that people can be creepy/offensive/obnoxious/offputting/whatever and still be likable. Rei is creepy, yes, but I also find her interesting and sympathetic. I don't see why the one need preclude the others. I can't even fathom why anyone else would voluntarily limit their thinking in that fashion.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:10 pm

I think I just don't understand what you mean by creepy.

To me the word means a strong negative gut-level feeling, a reaction that warns of a nonspecific or veiled threat. It's impossible to like something with that feeling in the mix; if you did it would be transformed into 'eccentricity' or similar... weird, but not dangerous. Even if the idea of that threat is the attraction, even if you continue to respect that threat, if you want to be around it then you aren't actually creeped out by it.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:23 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I think I just don't understand what you mean by creepy.

To me the word means a strong negative gut-level feeling, a reaction that warns of a nonspecific or veiled threat. It's impossible to like something with that feeling in the mix; if you did it would be transformed into 'eccentricity' or similar... weird, but not dangerous. Even if the idea of that threat is the attraction, even if you continue to respect that threat, if you want to be around it then you aren't actually creeped out by it.


That sounds more like repulsion to me. I don't think I could like something I found utterly repellant. Creepiness is much less pronounced IMO.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:37 pm

So... unique? Uncanny? Odd? What would you say is a good synonym for creepiness as you understand it?
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:48 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:So... unique? Uncanny? Odd? What would you say is a good synonym for creepiness as you understand it?


Off-putting, bizarre, disturbing, uncanny valley, etc. She's creepy, not horrific.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Lorkhan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:49 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:So... unique? Uncanny? Odd? What would you say is a good synonym for creepiness as you understand it?

Creepy is used quite liberally, and it can range from anything to their hobbies, how they interact to people, how they dress, things like that. Rei is odd because its presumed that she is fairly attractive in the story, barring blue hair/red eyes. For people in the narrative, that may be a good indicator if they knew that both were natural. Problem is though we don't normally think creepy as attractive looking people though, and it certainly throws things off. Its only when you start getting into the metaphysical and mental nature of Rei is when things really start getting weird, and when you're first viewing it, none of that really hits you until you start digging deeper.
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