Two things.

[kylethestrange]

1. Why is Kaworu an angel and Rei isn't? Kaworu houses the soul of Adam. Rei has the soul of Lilith. Why is he an angel but she isn't? They're "the same" according to him.

2. Are the angels a hive mind? Kaworu said that our consciousness/individuality/Soul was our AT Field. I think he used the wording "a place where no one may intrude." So if our individuality is our AT Field and the angels have theirs physically manifested instead, does that mean they all share a mind? Of course in the show they don't seem to. Or else they'd attack together, I'd imagine. (They talk about the possibility a few times. Of course in the proposal they were supposed to).

Anyone care to shed some light?

[liquidus118]

1. Why is Kaworu an angel and Rei isn't? Kaworu houses the soul of Adam. Rei has the soul of Lilith. Why is he an angel but she isn't? They're "the same" according to him.

Well, she probably is. I mean in episode 25 Shinji insists that he killed Kaworu because he's an angel then Rei appears and says that if Kaworu is an angel then she is too.

2. Are the angels a hive mind? Kaworu said that our consciousness/individuality/Soul was our AT Field. I think he used the wording "a place where no one may intrude." So if our individuality is our AT Field and the angels have theirs physically manifested instead, does that mean they all share a mind? Of course in the show they don't seem to. Or else they'd attack together, I'd imagine. (They talk about the possibility a few times. Of course in the proposal they were supposed to).

They have AT Fields so definitely are individuals. If they were a hivemind then Anno probably would have hinted at it more strongly, and as you said their attacks would be more co-ordinated.

[Jornophelanthas]

1. Why is Kaworu an angel and Rei isn't? Kaworu houses the soul of Adam. Rei has the soul of Lilith. Why is he an angel but she isn't? They're "the same" according to him.

Both Kaworu and Rei are Angel AND human. There are a few differences between the two, though:
- Lilith's soul is split between Rei II and Unit-00. In Rei III, Lilith's soul is reunited. You see that Rei III is much less human than Rei II was. Kaworu presumably possessed all of Adam's soul.
- Kaworu is aware of his Angel heritage, and even appears to possess Adam's memories. It is also quite likely that SEELE has been educating him about his true nature. Rei, by contrast, is left totally in the dark and is treated as a human being. It is not until she meets Kaworu that he drops hints to her that she is more than human. Rei III does manifest an Angelic AT Field during Kaworu's and Shinji's battle.
- Lilith and Adam are radically different beings, so their respective souls could possess different properties, and perhaps do not work in the same way, especially when put in human bodies.

2. Are the angels a hive mind? Kaworu said that our consciousness/individuality/Soul was our AT Field. I think he used the wording "a place where no one may intrude." So if our individuality is our AT Field and the angels have theirs physically manifested instead, does that mean they all share a mind? Of course in the show they don't seem to. Or else they'd attack together, I'd imagine. (They talk about the possibility a few times. Of course in the proposal they were supposed to).

You're misunderstanding. Every Angel has a mind of its own, separate from other Angels, but that mind is far bigger than a human mind. (The exception being the Angel that split into two halves, but that was arguably still one single Angel.)
However, Angels are not individuals. They are super-individuals. The consciousness of an Angel is comparable to the combined consciousness of the entire human race.
In fact, in End of Evangelion, it is directly stated that the entire human race is the equivalent of a single Angel, but that it has been fragmented in billions of individuals, instead of being condensed into a single super-consciousness. That is what the Human Instrumentality Project is all about: to eliminate all AT Fields between humans, and to let humanity exist as one single super-entity, where there are no more individuals.

[Kendrix]

Rei can probably be classified as an Angel as well (seeing as she seems to have a projectable AT-Field) then again, the freaking out techies in EoE classified her as a human, even after merging with Lillith...

It's that Rei is probably little Angel with lots of human, while Kaworu is lots of Angel with little HUman, like a "reverse" version of Rei/ He's close enough to Adam's natural spawn to be classified as such.
Also, Rei is made from Lillith, who would naturally be somewhat closer to humans, being their progenitor.

[Reichu]

Both Kaworu and Rei are Angel AND human.

Well, technically so is the entire main cast. (Except Pen Pen, if he counts as "main".)

Your conception of Adam's children may be flawed. They're "super-individuals" by virtue of their bodies, really. You can put a Lilin soul into an "Angel" body [=Eva], and the result is effectively the same. Add an S2 Engine and remove all of the restraints, and an Eva could probably do everything a child of Adam does.

For what it's worth, the HIP alternate scenarios -- which you can read about in one of the stickies -- show that the Angels' souls are gathered into HIP, just like everyone else.

[Jornophelanthas]

@Reichu:
I realize that the term "human" could be ambiguous, since all Adam AND Lilith spawn are considered "human" in EoE.
Also, I realize that the term "Angel" could be ambiguous, since all Llilith spawn are considered to be Lilin, the 18th Angel. (Including Pen Pen, I think.)
So yes, the entire main cast, and all the attacking Angels can be considered to be both "Angel" and "human" within these definitions.
However, Kaworu and Rei are both a non-Lilin soul in a Lilin body. This phrasing should clear up the ambiguity in the terminology.

Perhaps my point about super-consciousness is flawed. However, I am convinced that the (non-Lilin) Angels possess a form of consciousness that is radically different from the regular (Lilin) humans.
- Some appear to have little more than animal intelligence, meaning they do not have a sense of self.
- Some are so alien in nature that they are unlikely to have any conception of space (like Leliel) or matter (like Bardiel).
- None have any conception of "the other", except Kaworu and Rei, because this is an element of social identity, and the social only exists in the (Lilin) human race. Kaworu and Rei ARE part of the Lilin race, so that is why they can understand this dimension. Kaworu is fascinated by it, and believes it to be a miracle of creation. Rei, by contrast, is clueless and a part of her (Rei I) yearns to be free of it, while another part (Rei II) embraces it.

[Reichu]

However, I am convinced that the (non-Lilin) Angels possess a form of consciousness that is radically different from the regular (Lilin) humans.

This is nature vs. nurture, I believe. The souls are fundamentally the same (FAR reincarnate, or descendant thereof). The basic biology is almost the same. What's different is that one type of human is tiny, mortal, has an essentially fixed physical structure, and is reliant on social structure and ingenuity to survive, whereas the other has had all basic needs (sustenance, etc.) satisfied even before birth and is basically a god. This is why the Angels [Adam's Children] are autonomous and tend to lack everything we get from being socialized.

BTW, I thought "song" was Kaworu's 'miracle of creation' (as you put it). He never says anything about the Lilin themselves in similar terms.

[Kendrix]

BTW, I thought "song" was Kaworu's 'miracle of creation' (as you put it). He never says anything about the Lilin themselves in similar terms.

Yeah, but he's still very fascinated with our inner workings, (especially Shinji's), and decides that we should have the planet, so it's not much a leap to assume that.

[AuraTwilight]

Btw, keep in mind that NERV's numbering of the Angels is completely arbitrary. For instance, humanity is named the 18th Angel but we should probably technically be the Third, and Rei is never labeled an Angel because she's never a threat to NERV and Gendo would like her true nature to himself and other confidants like Ritsuko.

Also, the EVAs should probably be numbered too, I guess?

I guess you could say that Rei is also "Tabris", if it bugs you that much.

[Reichu]

Aura: It all depends on whatever Seele is hoping to accomplish with their enumerations. It seems to have more to do with their "scenario" than anything else... Perhaps it simply reflects the order in which the Angels intrinsic to their plan are "defeated" or otherwise "subjugated". They're laying the stones to their "Path to God", one by one. Hence, the Lilin are the last because making humanity surrender to the AATF is (effectively) the final step.

The Evas, despite being Angels, are the "keys" to the path, and hence not counted.

[Kendrix]

Something like that - when humans go and discover something, they'll name it, and after they've investigated it further, the name might end up making less sense. That sort of thing happens all the time in science.

[r0ach]

I think we should keep in mind that Rei is a human. Lillith is the progenitor of all humans, more or less hte original human.

Kaworu is an angel because he was made from adam, the original angel. Rei shows up as a human due to Lillith starting humanity and everything else on Earth.

[Reichu]

r0ach: Technically, the original humans are in all likelihood the First Ancestral Race, with the original Angels being the seven Seeds of Life.

[Fireand'chutes77]

Both Kaworu and Rei are Angel AND human. There are a few differences between the two, though:
- Lilith's soul is split between Rei II and Unit-00. In Rei III, Lilith's soul is reunited. You see that Rei III is much less human than Rei II was.

If you ask me, it was Rei III who was more "human" than Rei II. She appears to gain a wider range of emotions (namely, the ability to be really. pissed. off).

Didn't Rei begin to organically develop her own unique soul/identity, apart from Lilith, as well?

[Sgt. Griff]

^I have to disagree with your Conclusion that Rei III is more human than Rei II. She doesn't really have enough direct screentime (compared to Rei II) to make such a claim.

[kylethestrange]

Btw, keep in mind that NERV's numbering of the Angels is completely arbitrary.

They seem to imply that The Dead Sea Scrolls tell them how many there are/would be. Gendo says how many there are left at a few points. Or at least once. Which is odd, because when the scrolls were presumably packed with Adam/Lilith, none of the angels would have been born yet. Which makes me wonder what are the scrolls? They seem unnecessary to the plot tbh.

[AuraTwilight]

The Dead Sea Scrolls seem to effectively be an instruction manual about what to do if there's two seeds on the same planet or something, and SEELE is misinterpreting it for their religious "A God Am I" purposes. They're probably reading things into it that aren't there while perverting what is there. For instance, if it DOES say "The third angel, Sachiel", then any Angel that attacked would be called that. Even if it was the Angel we currently know as Armisael, or something.

[Reichu]

For instance, if it DOES say "The third angel, Sachiel", then any Angel that attacked would be called that. Even if it was the Angel we currently know as Armisael, or something.

If it's worth anything: in NGE2, if the Angels attack out of show order (which is almost always), their numbers change, but their names stay the same. Sachiel is still Sachiel, Armisael is still Armisael, etc.

[Bagheera]

I'm still not convinced there's a set number of Angels listed in the SDSS. I think it's more likely SEELE used the SDSS to figure things out based on what they knew of Second Impact.

(for example, the SDSS might tell them how long it takes to produce a FoL-type lifeform, and SEELE calculated how many Angels were produced based on how long Adam had to work. Adam also might have had an assigned progression when it came to making Angels; make A first, then B, then C, etc. SEELE sees the typology there and assigns names accordingly, running through 15 of them since that's all Adam got to make. If he'd made more they would have adjusted the prophecies accordingly.)

IOW the SDSS are more of a key than an exact prophecy (which makes sense since they were penned by the FAR and they had no way of knowing how things would play out in Earth's particular situation).

[r0ach]

r0ach: Technically, the original humans are in all likelihood the First Ancestral Race, with the original Angels being the seven Seeds of Life.

An interesting thought. The FAR are just that, they made the seeds; the Adam-esque seeds, and the Lillith-esque seeds. Of course there may be more. I always thought of them as humanoid as Adam or Lilith.

I stick the theory, that Adam bred each of the angels. I just see the angels as Adam's offspring, not so much as individual seeds. Then there is also who Lilith bred Life on Earth. They each have quite a bit of variety.

Lilith gave life from everything from birds, to humans, to penguins, to bears, etc.

I suppose Adam had a bit more of a limited variety in his breeding; with only really 15 legit offspring, with Kaworu having a bit of a unique birth. Also the Dead Sea Scrolls seemed to know how many angels Adam was capable of producing; sense Seele seemed to know how many there would be