Why crush Bardiel's entry plug?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby SaltyJoe » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:34 am

So much for the topic.

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:If you have to destroy the plug to kill the Angel, it would make a whole lot more sense to destroy it in a way that would actually affect an amorphous blob, like melting it or something. By crushing the plug to kill a fungal growth in it, you might as well be trying to punch a bowl of pudding to death.

On the other hand, it worked. After Eva-01 bit the plug, the Angel died (rainbow). Given the animalistic behavior of the D.S., it probably didn't come to it's conclusions through any kind of reasoning or tactical considerations, but simply followed the "hurt it unti it's dead" method. And since, as i said, this approach proved to be successful, it can be assumed without much of a hassle that the Angel's actual physical configuration (the fungal infection thing is just an analogy we viewers use to desribe it amongst ourselves, it's not like the Angel is actaully some species of fungus) was such that crushing the Entry Plug lead to it's demise.

It probably formed a core similar to the usual red ball somewhere inside the Entry Plug, and Eva-01 managed to break that when it clamped down on said Plug.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:17 am

For the sake of specifically pointing it out: the screenshot I posted indicates that the entry plug is both

1) The Angel's core
2) The "designated hostile target"

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:37 am

here's a thing to consider:

as portrayed in the movie (as well as in the series and to a lesser degree with the Harpies in EoE), dummy plug systems come off as very animalistic and lacking in much, if any human/logical traits at all.

the dummy plug system that was tested in Unit 01 might have been a prototype or was simply designed with one mission objective: kill.

Probably with absolutely no regard or with much thought put into even creating any resemblence of a human intelligence with AI or whatnot.


the fact that even trying to pick seams at something so simple as that is really grasping at thin air and looking way too much into something that is simple and to the point is a bit silly IMO.
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:15 am

Fungal growth or not, Bardiel was first and foremost an angel, and so far, "smash the core" has always been an effective way to do an angel in, no matter how large the rest is or what its structure is like; It's like hitting the brain on a human, except that the Angels are so tough that nothing else will kill em. If the core is smashed, they needn't worry about the rest, especially not in Rebuild where the rest was sure to liquify.

Also, yeah, the Dummy System, at least the first, Rei-based version, was repeatedly stated to be very crude, don't think it's capable of complex feats like extracting the pilot from the target...

Not sure about the original, but as for the Rebuild version, I CLEARLY remember some background Dialogue stating that "The Dummy Sistem has so and so much seconds of active time remaining", indicating that all they could do to control it was turn it on and wait till it stops moving... They didn't even have Ritsuko (who built it and thus might have had some chance of regulating it) present, they used it as a desperate measure, because EVA 01 was literally the only thing between them and third impact, save for perhaps the self-destruction mechanism.
Asuka would've been in mortal danger either way, be it death by EVA 01 or death by third Impact. The former at least leaves a theoretical chance there, doesn't it?
Note that we have the male techies (= token normal people) telling Shinji that it was the only way right afterwards...
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:32 pm

Jornophelanthas and Kendrix already said pretty much everything about the topic of the Dummy System and the way Yui acts inside Eva-01 so I just wanted to say something about this point:
View Original PostBC Baron wrote:Once Shinji gets back to the Geofront, has anyone ever suggested that he visit the basement and arm himself with the Lance of Longinus? Based on that scene from 1.11 just prior to operation Yashima, Misato shows Shinji where it is and, unless she was using Kaji-esque untraceable means to gain entrance, Gendo should be aware that Shinji already knows what's down there. The secret's out. Why not let Shinji use the Lance to incapacitate Unit-03/destroy Bardiel without having to risk further contact? From what I recall, it was extremely effective against Arael in episode 22 and in EoE even a replica was able to stop an Eva in one shot. I'm no expert on how the Lance is supposed to work, but I don't think you would even have to necessarily stab an angel's core with it in order to take one out. Just sayin'

If it works like in NGE, the Spear of Longinus isn't something that Gendo can use without a direct authorisation from Seele, in the case of Arael in NGE Gendo had the excuse that there wasn't any other way to deal with the enemy but Bardiel didn't offer a similar excuse. After all we could also say the same for any other Angel, especially powerful ones like Ramiel and Zeruel, why haven't they used the Spear (Kaworu does so in those pachinko games but...)?
Also I have the impression that in order to take an Angel out the Spear has to destroy the core, there aren't other ways to defeat Angels, maybe you could stop it but I'm not even sure on this point, Eva-02 before being completely destroyed by the Eva Series was still capable of moving even if it's been stabbed by the a copy of the Spear (during it short berserk sequence).

EDIT: I've borrowed concepts from NGE/EoE but BC Baron basically did the same by mentioning the Spear, we never saw its effects in NME we can only assume that it works in a similar way, I hope that everyone is fine with that.
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Postby symbv » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:55 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote: they used it as a desperate measure, because EVA 01 was literally the only thing between them and third impact, save for perhaps the self-destruction mechanism.
Asuka would've been in mortal danger either way, be it death by EVA 01 or death by third Impact. The former at least leaves a theoretical chance there, doesn't it?

Since we are talking about NME (Rebuild) here, let's be careful not to mix in concept from NGE/EoE into the discussion. Do we know that not stopping an Angel in NME would cause Third Impact? Do we know that in NME Third Impact means everyone tangs/dies?
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:57 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Since we are talking about NME (Rebuild) here, let's be careful not to mix in concept from NGE/EoE into the discussion. Do we know that not stopping an Angel in NME would cause Third Impact? Do we know that in NME Third Impact means everyone tangs/dies?


Misato clearly says so in 1.X's "lillith scene", so even if it isn't that way, that's what all the characters think and base their actions on.
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Postby Brainman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Well I mean, obviously in the logic of the movie, biting the fungus kills the angel. It just seems a little weird is all, given that amorphous goo can't really be damaged that way. A nitpick in the end I guess. It's not even the point of the scene anyway.

Related to that though, how does Asuka survive the crushing? That actually bothers me a bit more than killing goo by biting it. If killing Bardiel means damaging the plug to the degree that it actually destroys the angel's core inside (or around) the plug, how does that avoid smashing Asuka also? Even assuming she's not in the area where the teeth came down, wouldn't the rapid decompression of the entry plug make her head explode?

But let's assume that maybe during the infection, she was LCLified like the 400% synch ratio thing from the original. But in that case, how does she reform, and more importantly, how does she reform without traceable angel infection? It's also a bit weird to me that nobody is shown to be very relieved that Asuka survived. I mean, it's pretty miraculous that she's not brought out as a bowl of chili after the attack. Sure she's tucked aside with no human rights and all but that still seems like a billion to one considering, and no one seems to acknowledge that (because the scene is still actually about a failed dinner party, which makes Asuka's treatment seem out of whack given the new scenario, but *whaaaaaaatever*).
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:54 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Well I mean, obviously in the logic of the movie, biting the fungus kills the angel.


No, biting the core somewhere within the fungus-y mass kills it. There's a difference.

As for Asuka, the plug depht was said to be increasing to a crazy level as Bardiel revealed itself so she wasn't in the middle of the plug where she would normally have been (and where EVA 01's teeth would have gotten her)
but close to the Plug's end, far away from the teeth, probably floating in some remaining LCL that saved her life.

note that she's completely covered in life-support-tech-stuff afterwards, so her injuries were anything but light, so it's far too early to be relieved; The characters mostly act like she's as good as dead, completely with a shot of her empty room with her stuff on her bed in a box labeled with "danger, contamination" signs, in which Misato's appartment looks completely devoid of light and color, and Shinji accusing Gendo of murdering someone with his hands/telling him that he needs to lose someone important as well.
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Postby symbv » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:59 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Misato clearly says so in 1.X's "lillith scene", so even if it isn't that way, that's what all the characters think and base their actions on.

It would be better if we have what Misato said in that scene...
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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:15 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:It would be better if we have what Misato said in that scene...

You ask for specific lines often enough that it might be more productive to ask for complete transcripts, and then keep them around on your computer for future reference. :wink:

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Postby Azathoth » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:24 pm

door opens. Familiar images of Lilith.

Shinji: It can't be...Eva?!
Misato: Not quite.

slow pan up the length of body

Misato: The bringer of life to this planet, and the agent of its destruction:
Misato: the Second Angel, Lilith.
Shinji: Lilith?
Misato: Yes.
Misato: Some believe it will act as the trigger for Third Impact.

close on the mask

Misato: We fight with the Evas to protect Lilith.
Misato: That is something that only you can do.

close on Misato, Shinji at her side

Misato: We're entrusting the future of humanity to you and Eva.

Shinji in clear discomfort

Shinji: And why give me that painful responsibility?

Misato smiling

Misato: No reason. Fate chose you, that's all.

Shinji even less comfortable, but says nothing
Lilith again, dwarfing the two of them. Legs twitching sporadically


Misato: But you're not the only one putting your life on the line here, Shinji.
Misato: We all are.

Shinji's look of agitation breaks, becomes resignation. Looks away

Shinji: I'll pilot it...one more time.


So it's clear that Lilith + Angel will cause a Third Impact, at least in Misato's mind. Of course, Misato is stupid, so that may not be worth much. But she certainly seems to think that everyone will die if an Angel gets down there.[/quote]
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:37 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You ask for specific lines often enough that it might be more productive to ask for complete transcripts, and then keep them around on your computer for future reference. :wink:

I would actually like to have them as reference too, people who don't own the American release like me could need them in order to use Funi's translation which is generally accepted as standard.
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Postby symbv » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:40 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You ask for specific lines often enough that it might be more productive to ask for complete transcripts, and then keep them around on your computer for future reference. :wink:

Don't forget most of the specific lines I asked before are EoE (and some NGE)...
Yeah, like HyperShinchan I think it would be great to share them. I tried to look for the Japanese dialogues but I have yet to find a complete transcript so far...
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Postby ReiAyanami25 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:42 am

This may have already been discussed, but I believe that the crushing of Bardiel's entry plug was purely due to the dummy system's tenancies and the way it was designed. As we know from the battle in question, and the MP evas, the dummy plug is ruthless, and this could also mean that it is programmed to complete the job it has be assigned right down to the very last bit, to terminate any possibility of the 'angels' survival. There is further evidence to support this from EoE, when we see the MP evas eat Unit 02. It seemed that unit 02 and Asuka had no chance of survival after the first replica lance had impaled Unit 02, but the MP evas ripped it apart. So the crushing of the entry plug could simply be a fail safe precaution that the dummy system will take, no matter what the circumstances are.
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Postby Na7e » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:18 am

The FCS mode was offline because it most likely had an IFF(Identify Friend/Foe) system.

That would be needed to overridden so Unit-01 could actually target Unit-03.

Second, they even say there detecting a core like substance on the Entry plug. So naturally the Dummy Plug is going to go after the core.

The way they handled it was shit though. Goes into my theory about how Nerv is one of the most incompetent paramilitary orginizations.

But, what can you do Dummy Plug=Plot device. Not lets turn off the dummy plug grab a valuable sample. Save a pilot.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:26 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:The way they handled it was shit though. Goes into my theory about how Nerv is one of the most incompetent paramilitary organizations..


The point is showing how incompetent Gendo is at strategy, yes. No matter how insane Misato's plans may sound on paper, at least she gets the job done (and usually without much harm to the pilots, depending on the Angel that's attacking).
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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:09 am

Like ReiAyanami25 asked, why do people assume that NERV directs the Dummy Plug's actions? The opposite seems true: you point it towards the thing you want dead and let 'er rip. If the system has the ability to make judgments about blue fungal staplely crap, it's INCREDIBLY sophisticated. I think two things are more likely:

1.) The Dummy Plug lacks the ability to understand what plugs are. Destroying Asuka's was just a coincidence in the course of slaughter.

2.) It does understand what plugs are and interpreted its mission to be the destruction of Unit-03's. It knows that if you want to kill an Eva, you kill the pilot.

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Postby esselfortium » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:23 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Like ReiAyanami25 asked, why do people assume that NERV directs the Dummy Plug's actions? The opposite seems true: you point it towards the thing you want dead and let 'er rip. If the system has the ability to make judgments about blue fungal staplely crap, it's INCREDIBLY sophisticated.

Did anyone actually assume this?

Speaking for myself, at least, I was mainly responding to the assertion that crushing the plug was the most (or only) logical strategy that could've been taken, Dummy System not withstanding. The point might have been lost in the way the thread was split off from the original discussion that it spawned from.

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Postby Brainman » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:37 am

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:The point might have been lost in the way the thread was split off from the original discussion that it spawned from.


Who cares.

Honestly...
Why do they even want the Loc-Nar? All it does is melt you.


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