Why crush Bardiel's entry plug?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Why crush Bardiel's entry plug?

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Postby esselfortium » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:50 pm

Edit: Hi there! This was split off of a discussion in another thread.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The 9th Angel's core had grown around and within the entry plug. Destroying the plug was the only way to kill the Angel.

Crushing the container of an amorphous fungal growth to neutralize it is about as sensible a technique as jumping up and down on a puddle full of goldfish to disperse the puddle. It might get the job done through sheer dumb luck, but it's about the least logical and most wasteful possible way that they could have possibly done it: it posed an incredible danger to the human in there and significantly less of one to the formless, shapeless alien growth that they were trying to get rid of.

Smashing the entry plug made sense in NGE when it was played as insane overkill. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense as a defensible strategy, and it's certainly not the only way the Angel could have been defeated.
Last edited by esselfortium on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:59 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense as a defensible strategy, and it's certainly not the only way the Angel could have been defeated.

Any suggestion? The Angel was that blue substance around (and presumably inside, like Reichu said) the entry plug, utterly smashing it to pieces sounds like a legit "strategy".
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:00 pm

essel: It was literally the core. This is indicated in Eva-01's targeting display, and you can even see the "red" of the core creeping up the entry plug before it's flooded with blue goo. "Amorphous" or not, the 9th had a defined weak point, the destruction of which resulted in instant death. Not too hard to understand, is it?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:01 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Smashing the entry plug made sense in NGE when it was played as insane overkill. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense as a defensible strategy, and it's certainly not the only way the Angel could have been defeated.


We see a screenshot of Eva-03's plug in NGE too, the source of Bardiel is still within the entry plug itself. It appears to be insane overkill, but the Dummy System is actually methodical in both continuities.
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Postby esselfortium » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:03 pm

If you have to destroy the plug to kill the Angel, it would make a whole lot more sense to destroy it in a way that would actually affect an amorphous blob, like melting it or something. By crushing the plug to kill a fungal growth in it, you might as well be trying to punch a bowl of pudding to death.

Besides that, once the plug is removed from the Eva, the actual threat is immediately neutralized already because it has no body to control. If anything, biting it only created far more danger by risking the possibility of infecting Eva-01 through its mouth.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:08 pm

Yes, instead of slowly and carefully and medically approaching the functionally disabled Angel stuck in the limbless entry plug (you know, for the sake of the innocent child stuck inside there) just pop it in your mouth and chompy chomp.

Also, saying 'they should have destroyed it both intelligently and humanely' isn't the same as saying 'they shouldn't have destroyed it'.

Not too hard to understand, is it? (hooray for condescension? seriously people.)
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:08 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:If you have to destroy the plug to kill the Angel, it would make a whole lot more sense to destroy it in a way that would actually affect an amorphous blob, like melting it or something. By crushing the plug to kill a fungal growth in it, you might as well be trying to punch a bowl of pudding to death.

You seem to be imparting properties onto the Angel that are demonstrably not true in the show or the movies.
Besides that, once the plug is removed from the Eva, the threat is immediately neutralized already because it has no body to control.

As if anyone could have known for sure that the Angel was truly neutralized. Would anyone really have been surprised if the entry plug had, say, sprouted tentacles and started fighting again, possibly piercing Eva-01's head with a surprise attack? We've seen them do stranger before.
If anything, biting it only created far more danger by risking the possibility of infecting Eva-01 through its mouth.

I could agree with that, but sometimes risks are worth it -- perhaps the Eva felt that only the crushing power of its jaw would do the task and if it did it quickly enough the Angel would have no chance to try anything.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:12 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:You seem to be imparting properties onto the Angel that are demonstrably not true in the show or the movies.

Effectively it looked like a tissue-like substance more than anything else.
View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:perhaps the Eva felt that only the crushing power of its jaw would do the task and if it did it quickly enough the Angel would have no chance to try anything.

Gendo is also not especially famous for worrying about little things like the life of a pilot or two, this battle has the peculiarity of happening under his direct control without Misato's interference, I always wondered what would have happened if Misato were in Nerv HQ during this event, in both NGE and NME.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:15 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Not too hard to understand, is it? (hooray for condescension? seriously people.)

Heh, sorry. Wasn't intentionally condescending; I just neglected to devote enough brainpower to selecting a better phrasing... We're cool, right?

essel wrote:If you have to destroy the plug to kill the Angel, it would make a whole lot more sense to destroy it in a way that would actually affect an amorphous blob

But it did affect the Angel, didn't it? If they knew it was a "core", it was probably a foregone conclusion that destroying it (via the usual methods) would liquify the rest.

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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:43 pm

Perhaps Nerv was unable to stop Unit-01 from smashing the plug. I've always wondered how easy it is to cancel the Dummy Plug System once initiated. Maybe you have to "let it finish". If there was an easy off switch, I imagine Maya endlessly (and annoyingly) prodding the commander. "Hey, looks like Unit-03 is dead, sir. We should probably stop the Dummy Plug System, huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?"

Or maybe Ikari was just tired of people complaining about Asuka's role in 2.0 and wanted to save us from that in Q. :lol:

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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:54 pm

Image

Moving right along...?

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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:59 pm

NO! What the fuck is FCS mode!? And why is it offline!? I feel this is the key to everything.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:15 pm


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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Dammit, I was hoping it was pointless gobbledygook.

ANNO: Put, uhhhhh... "FCS Mode" up there.
ARTIST: What does that mean?
ANNO: It means shut your face and do it.

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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:40 pm

^ I copied the posts by SaltyJoe and Jornophelantha's posts to the Shinji in NME thread, just to keep the context intact in the other thread. (EDIT: I have removed Jornophelanthas' part by his request as he has posted it himself there.)

It may be best to move those posts that are entirely about Shinji's portrayal to that thread as well, but I guess it may be too much on mods' part? At least we have the last 2 posts from the debate visible in the proper thread.

Now on with the "speculation in 3.0" discussion, or, urrr, "how to kill a fugal angel" discussion?
Last edited by symbv on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tehprognoob » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:41 pm

Lysol?

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Postby KnightmareX13 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:55 pm

If we are talking about a mold that grows on walls then chemicals, I've seen dry ice used to blast mold of walls. if we are talking about the kind that grows in body cavities then see a professional.
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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 pm

^ Clearly the key to killing a fugal angel is still by destroying its core, so your conventinal methods may not really work. and apparently even with fugal form the core of the angel is not microscopic in size?
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Postby BC Baron » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:29 am

Sorry for interrupting all of the Mari/Mary/Maria/Milia/Miriya(?) talk, but I was hoping to go back for a moment to the Unit-03/Bardiel core attack portion of this thread. I was a bit late to the party, but found the debate interesting and was hoping to address a couple of comments and possibly get some additional feedback. However, if the admins feel that this will take things too far off topic, perhaps they could move my post to a more appropriate venue or point me in the right direction.
View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Crushing the container of an amorphous fungal growth to neutralize it...might get the job done through sheer dumb luck, but it's about the least logical and most wasteful possible way that they could have possibly done it...It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense as a defensible strategy, and it's certainly not the only way the Angel could have been defeated.
Could not agree more with this. Also, assuming the dummy system was even capable of detecting and pinpointing the exact location of the angel's core, why would its programming select Unit-01's teeth to be more accurate and effective versus a progressive knife for the purpose of destroying it?
View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:We see a screenshot of Eva-03's plug in NGE too, the source of Bardiel is still within the entry plug itself. It appears to be insane overkill, but the Dummy System is actually methodical in both continuities.
Unless I'm mistaken, in both the tv series and Rebuild, the first action the dummy system takes is to strangle Unit-03. Once its neck had been snapped, Unit-03/Bardiel didn't appear to offer any further resistance, as its limbs (all of them) seemed to go limp. Why then does the dummy system waste so much extra time completely dismembering Unit-03 before finally locating the entry plug? This attack incorporated a fair amount of madness to its method, but not the other way around. If, as you suggest, Bardiel's core was contained within Unit-03's entry plug and the dummy system is supposed to be intelligent enough to realize this, then shouldn't the dummy system have attacked it directly without further hesitation?

Consider how quickly Shinji was able to liberate Unit-00's entry plug in the immediate aftermath of the battle against Ramiel (both continuities). I would call that a whole lot more methodical.

OTOH if the dummy system was actually programmed for insane overkill or, as I suspect, really just tricking the Eva into activating some mindless, uncontrollable beserker mode, then mission accomplished, I guess. Not only did it critically injure Unit-03's pilot, but in the process also unnecessarily damaged a gillion dollar weapon designed to help defend humanity, beyond all hope of salvage/repair. Fine job all around; I mean it's not as though any additional healthy pilots or an extra functional Eva available on the roster might be useful toward future angel battles. Bottom line, IMO Maya was probably downplaying how much of a lemon the dummy system truly was.

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:If you have to destroy the plug to kill the Angel, it would make a whole lot more sense to destroy it in a way that would actually affect an amorphous blob, like melting it or something. By crushing the plug to kill a fungal growth in it, you might as well be trying to punch a bowl of pudding to death.
Besides that, once the plug is removed from the Eva, the actual threat is immediately neutralized already because it has no body to control. If anything, biting it only created far more danger by risking the possibility of infecting Eva-01 through its mouth.
Good point. Gendo observes how this angel has infiltrated Unit-03 and, while strangling Unit-01, starts to infect it, as well. His response? Activate the dummy system so that Unit-01 will, in the process of close quarters combat, make even further physical contact with this angel. First time I saw it I was half expecting Bardiel to somehow jump over to Unit-01 in an act of desperation, as an attempt to preserve itself.

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Any suggestion? The Angel was that blue substance around (and presumably inside, like Reichu said) the entry plug, utterly smashing it to pieces sounds like a legit "strategy".
A while back, I posted the possibility that, had Shinji ended up losing consciousness, and Gendo had placed more faith in his wife than a machine, Unit-01 might have just gone into beserker mode on its own in order to protect Shinji. Most of the responses implied that it would've brought about either a similar or somehow worse result than what took place onscreen. I'm not so sure. Yui's instincts have always been to protect her son (as demonstrated with Sachiel, Sea of Dirac, Zeruel) but, as a parent, I don't think she would be as enthusiastic about harming someone else's kid (perhaps that's just wishful thinking).

As far as strategy is concerned, the first thing I would've done is tell Shinji to get some distance between himself and Unit-03 ASAP, and try to avoid getting any more of that angelic goo on him. We've seen how fast Shinji is able to make Unit-01 move when he's motivated and this was one situation where I would fully endorse running away, hopefully in the direction of NERV, where a better plan could be implemented. Maybe some N2 mines could have been used to distract Bardiel while Shinji retreated.

Once Shinji gets back to the Geofront, has anyone ever suggested that he visit the basement and arm himself with the Lance of Longinus? Based on that scene from 1.11 just prior to operation Yashima, Misato shows Shinji where it is and, unless she was using Kaji-esque untraceable means to gain entrance, Gendo should be aware that Shinji already knows what's down there. The secret's out. Why not let Shinji use the Lance to incapacitate Unit-03/destroy Bardiel without having to risk further contact? From what I recall, it was extremely effective against Arael in episode 22 and in EoE even a replica was able to stop an Eva in one shot. I'm no expert on how the Lance is supposed to work, but I don't think you would even have to necessarily stab an angel's core with it in order to take one out. Just sayin'
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:01 am

@BC Baron:
You're humanizing both Unit-01 and the Dummy Plug System way too much.

1. Unit-01 / Yui
Neither in NGE or in Rebuild does Unit-01 ever show full consciousness or self-awareness. At best (during berserker rages), it shows an awareness of danger towards itself or its pilot (which it probably treats like an unborn child to be protected), and responds with all the instinctual ferocity that an animal mother protecting its young would.
This does NOT include an awareness of the exact nature of the threat (beyond being a physical presence), the desire to minimize damage, or any higher-order cognitive problem-solving skills.
Its reasoning is simply "BABY IN DANGER! KILL!"
The only time when you actually get any hints of Yui's personality, is when Shinji is drawn into the core too deep, i.e. he loses consciousness while piloting.

2. The Dummy Plug
The Dummy Plug System is an experimental technology that has hardly been tested. In fact, its use during the 9th Angel ("Bardiel") battle is the first time it has actually been tried on an Evangelion.
However, as a prototype, it has not been fine-tuned, and can likely only operate an Evangelion at a very simple level. Whether it is an artificial intelligence, a soulless Rei clone, or something else entirely, it's certainly not a thinking human being, and therefore not self-aware, incapable of forming desires of its own, and incapable of higher-order problem-solving skills.
It is merely a crude tool that directs the Evangelion's attention and actions towards e.g. destroying a target. As such the Dummy Plug never displays any more subtlety than a sledge hammer in its degree of control over the Evangelion.
(Aside: Given Mari's "Beast Mode" activation of Unit-02 later on, I believe it's quite likely that the Dummy Plug taps into this Beast aspect of the Evangelion and attempts to "ride" this instinct.)

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Edit: If this discussion doesn't belong here, moderators should feel free to move, quote or repost this post wherever they want, though I would prefer it if it remained directly below the one by BC Baron (wherever that ends up).


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