Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Joe » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:14 pm

The rate of the sync cannot drastically change within a short lapse of time?


I think that the rate of the sync is mainly controled by Terminal dogma's team, and only them can modified it rapidly.
But it can change because of an external (Asuka's mind rape).

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Postby Aurelian » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:36 pm

Oh ,boy. So much points escaped me.

I thought Dogma's team had some control uppon the sync (they are the one behind that process afterall.) Yet , I thought the sync depended principaly on the Eva (human soul inside) and the pilot conditions, leading to some (more or less) good surprises.
The team gave me the feeling to be only capable to watch the failure (or its opposite) powerless sometime and trying to rectify or change what they could according to the situation.
Which is why I thought Asuka's death occured or not is a mystery.

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Postby Ornette » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:36 pm

View Original PostJoe wrote:I think that the rate of the sync is mainly controled by Terminal dogma's team, and only them can modified it rapidly.
But it can change because of an external (Asuka's mind rape).

What do you mean by "Terminal dogma's team?" Is that the small group of all the people who are really in the know at Nerv (e.g. Gendo, Fuyu, maybe Ritsuko)?

As far as just Nerv, I don't think they controlled Shinji/Eva-01 to achieve 400% sync. And that instance was a drastic, unexpected change, from deactivated to 400%. By all indicators it's between the pilot and the soul in the Eva, with some training thrown in.

The bandages, plugsuit, Shinji's school uniform, etc can be chocked up to the "self-image is pseudo-substantiating" the clothing/bandages/etc. There's a precedence of this, in an in-story explanation, in Episode 20 when Ritsuko explains why there's a plugsuit floating around in the LCL in the entry plug (when Shinji wore no such thing earlier).

As for the food/survivability post 3I, there's a lot of touching on those points throughout the (long) passage of time thread.

As for Asuka dying after the MPE fight, there's this archived thread: "Does Asuka die?" or this Asuka's Fate thread.

This thread is about the final scene, let's keep these tangents in their appropriate threads.

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Postby Joe » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:47 pm

What do you mean by "Terminal dogma's team?" Is that the small group of all the people who are really in the know at Nerv (e.g. Gendo, Fuyu, maybe Ritsuko)?

Sorry, I am very wrong expressed.

I am talking about them :
SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
Image

For exemple, against Bardiel, fuyutsiku ask Maya to put the sync' rate at 28%.
It appears that eva pilots cannot adjust the sync' rate by themself.

Yes, sorry, I come back to the main topic now.

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Postby Aurelian » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:06 pm

We're trying to pick up some clues to understand this very scene and to shape or/ and narrow the field of possibilities. I'm aware I can't respect the limit that is imposed. The clues are into a tree of topics that has to be partially tackled to gather enough information (or assumptions ) I'm lacking and that I need to be lead into.

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Postby EvaBrothers » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:23 pm

When I watched the scene the first time (I'm one of those who attribute some kind of importance to first impressions), this is what I felt:

Shinji is just back to real, material world. Asuka lays beside him and she looks so real too. He tries to strangle her because it's a way to reconnect to his pre-3I life, and because he needs to make sure everything still real around him, 'back to normal' in a certain way.

When Asuka caresses him, he's come to full realization. I interpreted his tears as the moment a shell cracks around him, making him say, inside, something like "We're alive".**


**This interpretation may be linked to my personal biography, though, so it may be wrong.
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Postby King Pen Pen of Tokyo 3 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:22 pm

Oh my Gendo, this. Well there are a multitude of theories of what this scene was about, as many have stated before. The crazyest being that she represented all of humanity and choking her/ humanity was basically showing how Shinji fealt about humanity as a whole at the time. This coming from the fact that her eye color was different and her plug suit was slightly different. Of course this alone doesn't give much evidence to this, but again just a theory, and of course this being one of Anno's works there's no limit to how strange things can get.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:44 am

Her eye color isn't even different. It's just a result of a red tint being over EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, hilariously enough.
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:54 pm

I don't think he wants to confirm she's real. Choking a person to see if is real? No, that seems too much craziness. And come on people, you think it's a coincidence that he chokes her "twice"? Ok, idk where the first choking actually happens, maybe in Shinji's head, but you get the idea.

I think it's frustration. Why? Let's move to the first choking. That scene is basically Shinji saying: "Give me hope Asuka. Don't let me die or disappear in the instrumentality! You are the one who can help me! You are the only one who embraces life and the only one who is not scary or a liar! I need you in order to live!"

She rejects Shinji. Shinji is impotent, so he does... it. An act of violence. I think that scene is extremely dark, and I just love it. It's so desperate, so sad, so angry and so revealing at the same time... Maybe Shinji could not do that, but you know the subconscious could be very primitive and violent (a random guy called Freud said so).

Going back to the beach, now Asuka is the real thing. Shinji was "some time" alone (no I'm not discussing the time, you guys have already done that). Imagine. For the first time he needs people and he's not scared, he needs someone around because he told Rei so. And who appears? Asuka, the girl who rejected him so many times, the girl he's never meant to understand (at least he thinks so). So he does his thing, he feels frustrated. That act of violence is the only way he knows to be in touch with Asuka, without been rejected. It's like the act of raping, an act a fucking rapist does to dominate the victim. But suddenly, Asuka gives him some love!! Yaay finally! And afterwards, Shinji cries of emotion. That's my take on the choking thing.
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:29 am

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I think it's frustration. Why? Let's move to the first choking. That scene is basically Shinji saying: "Give me hope Asuka. Don't let me die or disappear in the instrumentality! You are the one who can help me! You are the only one who embraces life and the only one who is not scary or a liar! I need you in order to live!"

She rejects Shinji. Shinji is impotent, so he does... it. An act of violence.

And that was a part that I think she had coming to her, for all the time she had treated Shinji, and that was karma coming right back at her.(unless you want to also count her defeat at the hands of the MP EVAs. but then again, that might have been a little too brutal.)
And who appears? Asuka, the girl who rejected him so many times, the girl he's never meant to understand (at least he thinks so). So he does his thing, he feels frustrated. That act of violence is the only way he knows to be in touch with Asuka, without been rejected.

If he was frustrated, why couldn't he just finish her off right on the spot? I'm sure he would've been better off without her for all they went through.
But suddenly, Asuka gives him some love!! Yaay finally! And afterwards, Shinji cries of emotion. That's my take on the choking thing.

And how could Asuka ever be capable of love? She never knows what love is. It would be nearly impossible for her to show that kind of emotion, especially towards Shinji, whom she always hated. Showing love would be out of character for her, as she sees this as a weakness. For all we know, she could still feel resentment towards him, and her stroking his cheek was just her way to get him to stop, but not out of love or care. True, she has been seeking affection but will give none in return, no matter how nice someone is towards Asuka. Seriously, she's all take but no give. I could hardly imagine her ever being capable of showing genuine love towards someone who people claimed she needed. What hope is there left for Asuka?
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:36 am

A sense of retribution like yours would eventually land you in prison in most countries. Just sayin'.

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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:13 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:A sense of retribution like yours would eventually land you in prison in most countries. Just sayin'.

Yeah, that seems something my dad told me when I bring up something like. Sorry if I was coming off as a little crazy.
I just happened to have a bit of a mixed emotion about Asuka; I honestly don't know what to make of her.
I think it's pretty obvious that her attitude towards people tends to make us dislike her, which is apparent at most parts.

However, there is a part of me that likes to think that there is goodness in her, but we just don't see it much, not enough to make up for her actions and bad personality. If there is more good in her, I'd like to see it, if not, then I think everyone would be better off without her.

And it's why I think that Shinji strangling Asuka towards the end during the kitchen scene was somewhat justified. He could only take so much from her before he can finally let it all loose upon her, and it's evident that all of Asuka's actions are coming back to bite her, at full force.

And I was hoping Asuka would learn something after her defeat and everything else that had happened to her, that it's not all right to treat people like shit all the time. Honestly, after Instrumentality, she would have been a better person, but apparently, she's not.
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:17 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Honestly, after Instrumentality, she would have been a better person, but apparently, she's not.

And so what was the significance of her stroking Shinji's cheek if not to demonstrate the start of that change?
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:46 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:And so what was the significance of her stroking Shinji's cheek if not to demonstrate the start of that change?

I'm not real sure. Sure, it could be a sign of some sort of affection, but most people would argue that Asuka has no positive feelings for Shinji at all. She never cared about his well being in the first place, nor anyone else's.
Realistically, she wouldn't be capable of such positive emotions, all she knows is hate, angef, aggression, resentment towards others, and her desire to put herself before others. That's all she is.

Like I mentioned, she's all take but no give, meaning she would never return any affection even if someone where to give her some. Everything she does was out of selfish reasons, so I don't think there's any redeeming factor about her.

We never seen her go through Instrumentality, so how can we know for sure or what she learned?
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 am

That's simply denying the evidence put right there in the film showing how she's changed, to suit your preconception. I would suggest that "most people would argue" doesn't get you very far in this situation; you are just refusing to accept that change is possible for anyone, which is rather the point of the ending.
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Zoop » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:41 am

I'll have to agree with pwhodges here. CT, you seem to have a very negative opinion about Asuka's character, as is your right to have an opinion, but I really don't believe that "most people" would agree with your statements.

I saw Asuka as someone would puts up a mask to hide her emotions and feelings from the world (a big theme within Instrumentality) and she most certainly cares about Shinji. Her way of showing it, however, is the exact opposite of what Shinji would want. She's fcked up alright and a bitch too (she has her reasons for being how she is). But unredeemable? Especially in a series like this which is all about these themes (opening up to eachother, character growth, coming to terms with someone's or one's own flaws, etc etc) seems a bit shortsighted, imo.

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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Cybermat47 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:14 am

Personally, I just interpreted it as Shinji violently releasing all the pain, self-loathing, and misery that had been building up in him, by strangling someone who always treated him like garbage.

Then, she strokes his face, and he realises that he's trying to kill someone.

Why did she stroke his face, though? Was it merely to stop him from killing her? Or, perhaps, during Instrumentality, she realised that she and Shinji are actually very similar, and she now empathises with him?

As for her saying "how disgusting", I'd say that's her expressing her disgust at that one last time before moving on - or, at least, trying to.
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Postby Tumbling Down » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:41 pm

She gave him, as TV Tropes would call it, a Reason You Suck speech. No one had ever struck him to his core like that before. The fact that he probably agrees with what she said should maje it even worse.

I mean, he tried it earlier, after she first gave the speech. So then, when she appeared again, he tried again because seeing her brought back all that rage.

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:10 pm

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Personally, I just interpreted it as Shinji violently releasing all the pain, self-loathing, and misery that had been building up in him, by strangling someone who always treated him like garbage.


Exactly. He is using force because it's the only thing that's left.
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Re: Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby OtherNigel » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:42 pm

I see the strangling as having Freudian, specifically sadomasochistic undertones.
Both Shinji and Asuka switch roles as dominant creatures. EoE is very sexual, so it would definitely fit.


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