Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Blue Monday » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:47 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:We also never see Asuka or Misato tanged, and yet P3II.

Misato:

Image
We also see a similar shot of Ritsuko; her clothing floating in the LCL pool in Terminal Dogma. No Asuka though.
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:20 pm

View Original PostJayfive wrote:That gif shows some odd expressions given whats gone before and where he currently is. He goes from slightly bored and then like someone's poked him in the ribs his face changed to vaguely annoyed. Like he's just missed the bus or something.

Basically its:
'Oh where the hell am I now....oh goddammit'

It amazes me how completely differently people will interpret an expression. I see that as a look of determination.

It reminds me of this one long argument I had many summers ago with a guy over who was stronger in DBZ, Kid Buu or Super Buu. (Hey, it's not like arguing over which soul is in Unit 00 is any more substantial.) Our complicated justifications ultimately hinged on the interpretation of Goku's face in a single panel. I saw his expression as one of being troubled, like "Oh man we're really in a jam", a grimace. The other party saw it as a cocky smirk. (For the record, I was in the Super Buu camp. The chain of logic each of us came up with was pret-ty long and convoluted.)

In retrospect, hilarious.
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Postby Blue Monday » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Haha, that's way OT but yeah; Super Buu is way more powerful than Kid.

To me, Shinji's expression in that scene is just mellowed out (Or perhaps soothed) after his talk with Rei-Lilith and Yui respectively, then the awareness hitting him of the GNR head right in front of him. That would probably make anyone start.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:23 pm

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Haha, that's way OT but yeah; Super Buu is way more powerful than Kid.


Yeah, that's pretty much a no-brainer. I mean, Goku and Vegeta were holding Kid Buu at bay at SSJ2, while it took Vegeto to deal with Super Buu. There's really no comparison between the two.

To me, Shinji's expression in that scene is just mellowed out (Or perhaps soothed) after his talk with Rei-Lilith and Yui respectively, then the awareness hitting him of the GNR head right in front of him. That would probably make anyone start.


I gotta say, I never paid much attention to his expression here. Maybe I should've, but it mattered not at all not a minute later so . . .
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Postby Der Kommissar » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:02 pm

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Misato:

*snip image*
We also see a similar shot of Ritsuko; her clothing floating in the LCL pool in Terminal Dogma. No Asuka though.


Probably the better part of her plug is scattered around the local area or in a MP unit's belly. Either way I don't think we want to see the inside of the plug.

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Postby Ceimoa Nan » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:38 pm

A possibly ridiculous question about tanging; if Shinji is tanged inside his entry plug, and the LCL inside the entry plug is closed off from the rest of the world, can he reform anywhere there's LCL, or only in the entry plug? A way of rephrasing this question might be, Do the particles of LCL that made up your body when you were tanged have to be the same particles that make you up when you're reformed? Or does your physical body "data" get beamed from one body of LCL to another, like teleportation? (I suspect this is an unanswerable question.)

That might explain why they considered a scene where Shinji's entry plug leaves Eva-01, even if Shinji was tanged inside it. I would also suspect Shinji was tanged since his synch ratio must've been pretty high at the time.

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Postby SleepS » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:44 pm

This question keeps coming back to me about the final scene. Maybe I can get some insight. If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back? Does that mean other presumably dead characters in the Eva universe might find themselves on that beach (such as Kaji?)

I also have a question for NemZ and or Mr. Tines about their theory that Shinji is fulfilling Asuka's desire to die. The theory makes a good deal of sense to me, but why would she come back in the first place if only to be killed? Did the MP Evas not already do that for her? (I'm generally curious, not necessarily trying to poke holes in your theory, as I find it very compelling. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer).

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:33 am

View Original PostSleepS wrote:If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back?
Misato gets blown to pieces, and she gets tanged later. There's plenty to suggest that the soul hangs around the corporeal remains for some while in the NGEverse. And we know that Asuka is active in instrumentality, wondering about her own possible behaviour when reviewing Misato's week in bed with Kaji.

So, Shinji brings the system down, and she's just stuck executing in the LCL limbo...
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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:36 am

This question keeps coming back to me about the final scene. Maybe I can get some insight. If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back? Does that mean other presumably dead characters in the Eva universe might find themselves on that beach (such as Kaji?)

I'd say there's no way to know for sure how exactly Asuka made it back, but realise that she, along with a couple of other dead characters (Misato and Ritsuko, for example) are involved in P3II. Notice that image I posted further up? The movie actually shows that whilst other people are losing their AT fields. So Misato and Ritsuko are already 'tang'd' when it's only just starting for everybody else in the world. It'd be the same for Asuka as well, we just don't see a shot of her reduced to LCL.

Kaji couldn't return as he died a long time before Instrumentality was initiated. Misato would not likely return either as she had her final moment. Asuka, however, was not willing to die - Cue the "I don't want to die!" revelation.

There are a couple threads that explain it a lot better. I was reading them just recently, so try searching for them maybe.


A possibly ridiculous question about tanging; if Shinji is tanged inside his entry plug, and the LCL inside the entry plug is closed off from the rest of the world, can he reform anywhere there's LCL, or only in the entry plug?

Yeah, the movie doesn't show the 'how' but there is the aforementioned deleted scene about the entry plug. I'd say when Unit-01 'entered' GNR, Shinji somehow joined up with the other souls in there maybe - All whilst he was still going over everything and talking with Rei-Lilith.

Third Impact/Instrumentality is a whole lot of weird juju, haha. Pretty much disregard any conventional analysis.

;)

Edit: Ahh, Tines beat me to it anyway, haha.
Last edited by Blue Monday on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:36 am

View Original PostCeimoa Nan wrote:A possibly ridiculous question about tanging; if Shinji is tanged inside his entry plug, and the LCL inside the entry plug is closed off from the rest of the world, can he reform anywhere there's LCL, or only in the entry plug? A way of rephrasing this question might be, Do the particles of LCL that made up your body when you were tanged have to be the same particles that make you up when you're reformed? Or does your physical body "data" get beamed from one body of LCL to another, like teleportation? (I suspect this is an unanswerable question.)

That might explain why they considered a scene where Shinji's entry plug leaves Eva-01, even if Shinji was tanged inside it. I would also suspect Shinji was tanged since his synch ratio must've been pretty high at the time.


It's not really clear, but it's likely the location of the soul is far more important. How or if souls are in any way mobile remains an unanswered question.

View Original PostSleepS wrote:This question keeps coming back to me about the final scene. Maybe I can get some insight. If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back? Does that mean other presumably dead characters in the Eva universe might find themselves on that beach (such as Kaji?)


Rei is able to project herself back through time once she merges with Kaworu and Lilith. We see her appearing to Misato and Ritsuko as they die, and she presumably appeared to Asuka as well. She is thus able to pull them into Instrumentality (and P3II) no matter when they died.

This might or might not apply to people who died in the past; Kaji appears in Shinji's Instrumentality sequence, so it presumably applies to him. How far back it really goes is a mystery (though using the "bookend Reis", shown in Ep 01 and EoEoE, as outer limits seems reasonable).

I also have a question for NemZ and or Mr. Tines about their theory that Shinji is fulfilling Asuka's desire to die. The theory makes a good deal of sense to me, but why would she come back in the first place if only to be killed? Did the MP Evas not already do that for her? (I'm generally curious, not necessarily trying to poke holes in your theory, as I find it very compelling. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer).


Given her past experiences Instrumentality was probably anathema to Asuka. She was not dead there, just alive, exposed to everyone, and bereft of identity. She got away from that as soon as possible because for her that was worse than death. But she still wanted to die, to cease existing, to embrace oblivion, so that's what she was looking for from Shinji (at least according to this theory).
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:44 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Rei is able to project herself back through time once she merges with Kaworu and Lilith. We see her appearing to Misato and Ritsuko as they die, and she presumably appeared to Asuka as well. She is thus able to pull them into Instrumentality (and P3II) no matter when they died.

Yeah, this is what was coined as the 'Quantum Magic' stuff, right? What I was trying to get at with my 'juju' comment (See previous post) was that this ritual is above beyond anything humans have ever likely dealt with before. Just the sheer scope of it is awe inspiring. Certainly a degree of 'magic' is involved.
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Postby Ceimoa Nan » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:31 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's not really clear, but it's likely the location of the soul is far more important. How or if souls are in any way mobile remains an unanswered question.


Well, we see those little red dots flying out of peoples' tanged remains and into the Black Moon and the Doors of Guf. So souls are probably mobile. We see the Black Moon explode and all the souls return to Earth. But, yeah, whether or not Kiel's soul would need to return to that exact puddle around his cybernetic implants in his conference room, or whether he could reform his body using any bucketful of LCL on Earth (disregarding any reliance on those cybernetics), is not really clear. I wonder if my question was too off-topic anyways.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:03 am

View Original PostCeimoa Nan wrote:Well, we see those little red dots flying out of peoples' tanged remains and into the Black Moon and the Doors of Guf. So souls are probably mobile. We see the Black Moon explode and all the souls return to Earth.


That just means the souls can be moved. It doesn't mean they can move under their own power. I mostly just assume they'll all settle into the ocean and use the LCL there to reform bodies close to their point of origin should the owner wish to come back.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby thewayneiac » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:44 am

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Kaji couldn't return as he died a long time before Instrumentality was initiated.


But he is clearly shown as participating in instrumentality. (Spouting off about rainy days vs sunny days, the congratulations scene, ect.)

Anyone whose soul participates in Instrumentality would be able to return.
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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:15 pm

Whilst I buy into concurrency between EOTV and EOE - I was thinking purely along the lines of what is presented in the movie with that statement. Even though Kaji participated in Instrumentality in EOTV; I highly doubt he would return, due to the same reasons I think Misato wouldn't.

Off the top of my head I can't really remember but does Kaji have much of a role or any dialogue in EOE? I think he has, like, a sentence or two, maybe...
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Postby TheSophist » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:53 pm

Shinji strangled Asuka out of hatred, a continuation from when Asuka poured coffe over him and refused to help him

She touched his cheek, a sign of affection.

he broke down and started crying, a kind of post traumatic stress.

He probably realised shes another complex human being just like him.

Simple

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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:09 pm

Asuka didn't pour the coffee over him - He just knocks the pot when he trips.

I wouldn't say it was out of hatred; as the strangling scene earlier in P3II is him lashing out at her in anger because she is rejecting him. He snaps. "You've hurt me, now I'm going to hurt you" kind of thing, taken to the extreme as one would expect (Really amazing scene I should add. I got choked up myself when I first saw it when I was younger. No pun intended). Anger and hatred are two very different things. Time has passed since then though as well, so it can't purely just be out of that same anger.

Honestly, as many others have posted, I agree in thinking it's really an amalgam of:
-A continuation of the aforementioned P3II scene.
-Confirming that Asuka is alive, separate or 'other'.
-Carrying out her wish of "I'd rather die than be with you!"

It always boils down to how the individual interprets it too.

As you said though, we then get the caress which is a sign of affection. The rest is... A whole other discussion.
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Postby Der Kommissar » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:28 pm

so it can't purely just be out of that same anger.


Can't it? Time has apparently passed. Enough to unhinge the kid again and (I would assume) make him think he's been abandoned after all. Who else does he see but the girl that explicitly told him to fuck off when he was last in this situation? Not surprising he gives the same response here, albiet preemptively, considering his probably unstable state.

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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:33 pm

Valid. I was going with time would have assuaged the anger somewhat.

Either way.

Going along with that though, it would also be possible to say that the anger then developed into hatred if it were to fester over that time.

Again... either way, haha.
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Postby Aurelian » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:48 pm

3 questions after reading some comments

How Asuka could know the reason of why he was attempting to murder her?
She knows him as someone who refuses to kill humans (or just pals) even if he has to loose his life for that.

Why her eyes looked so "empty"?

Andatwhichmomentandhowdidshegotherbandages?


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